421 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)">"Cerberus ground forces are formed from personnel - be they unsuspecting volunteers, refugees or abductees - who are deemed physically suitable. These personnel are put through an "integration" process - a combination of Reaper-inspired indoctrination, implantation or other conditioning - and become the various troop variants. While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated into a husk-like state, the integration does not reduce them to the feral behavior that Reaper ]husks[/color][/url] exhibit. Instead, Cerberus troops retain enough skills to perform their roles and maintain complete loyalty to Cerberus' cause. "

Hah this proves my point:

"While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated "

If indoctrination and the huskification were the same thing this line would not be needed. It is explicitly pointing out that _more_ than indoctrination is happening, a hybrid husk procedure that TIM can (believes he can) control

they are the same thing. It never says that the mutation and the indoctrination are separate things. They undergo indoctrination, and end up huskified. TIM makes use of the fast form, which is what huskification is.  that's what he's been researching.

In fact, it suggests, he uses a slight middle ground where it is still fast, but that the process doesn't shatter their mental ability so completely, allowing them to react and strategise etc.

Modifié par KingZayd, 17 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[dreman9999]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)">"Cerberus ground forces are formed from personnel - be they unsuspecting volunteers, refugees or abductees - who are deemed physically suitable. These personnel are put through an "integration" process - a combination of Reaper-inspired indoctrination, implantation or other conditioning - and become the various troop variants. While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated into a husk-like state, the integration does not reduce them to the feral behavior that Reaper ]husks[/color][/url] exhibit. Instead, Cerberus troops retain enough skills to perform their roles and maintain complete loyalty to Cerberus' cause. "

Hah this proves my point:

"While indoctrination is involved, and they are physically mutated "

If indoctrination and the huskification were the same thing this line would not be needed. It is explicitly pointing out that _more_ than indoctrination is happening, a hybrid husk procedure that TIM can (believes he can) control

Look at Saren..They did the same physical mutation to him....He still has his mind.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[Mobius-Silent]

dreman9999 wrote...
The third discovery is that the object broadcasts signals and information on many different spectra. One such pulse, suspected to be similar to a quantum entanglement communicator, reaches into. Another broadcast is infrasound, consistent with frequencies that trigger feelings of awe and fear in , a known factor in Reaper ]. Kenson's laboratory is filled with equipment dedicated to monitoring any signal coming from the artifact in the hopes that some clue will prove the Reapers' undoing before it's too late

Yes they can communicate from dark space to object Rho, shock horror. If they could remote control the process of indoctrination they wouldn't need the QC tech in object Rho.

The reapers don't get to regulate the (supposed) incomplete indoctrination in Shep without nearby tech, thats why Rho _had_ that tech.

Point is I don't need to prove my position, what I'm illustrating is that there are alternate "natural" explainiation for the stuff y'all take a "proof" of IT. My point is that you have no "proof" only suppositions, all I need to come up with is a simple alternate explaination, of which there are plenty. As fanfic, I think IT is neat, but I'd prerer it stayed on fanfiction.net

Just brace youselves come the summer, seriously.  Because you're still in the "denial" stage of grief and the rest will hit hard when it does. I hope the EC will be good enough to dull the pain because it will kill IT (due to not confirming it, remember Bioware saying: "We don't want to be prescriptive")

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 03:11 .

[Xandurpein]

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...
they are the same thing. It never says that the mutation and the indoctrination are separate things. They undergo indoctrination, and end up huskified. TIM makes use of the fast form, which is what huskification is.  that's what he's been researching.

In fact, it suggests, he uses a slight middle ground where it is still fast, but that the process doesn't shatter their mental ability so completely, allowing them to react and strategise etc.

No it isn't, huskification is a specific process it is a subset of the greater tech of reaper implantation and nanotech. Saren wasn't huskified, he was implanted the implants were the same tech which soverign took direct control of. Everything that used to be saren (the organic parts) was just burned off, what was left was controlled like a husk. Indoctrination is another tool in their arsenal. Rapid indoctrination is just that, taking control of an organic quickly, leaving then mentally deficient. Nothing physical (other than neurological damage) occurs.

[KingZayd]

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

but they should be :/ there is no other rational explanation for what TIM is doing based on what we've seen in the game.

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
they are the same thing. It never says that the mutation and the indoctrination are separate things. They undergo indoctrination, and end up huskified. TIM makes use of the fast form, which is what huskification is.  that's what he's been researching.

In fact, it suggests, he uses a slight middle ground where it is still fast, but that the process doesn't shatter their mental ability so completely, allowing them to react and strategise etc.

No it isn't, huskification is a specific process it is a subset of the greater tech of reaper implantation and nanotech. Saren wasn't huskified, he was implanted the implants were the same tech which soverign took direct control of. Everything that used to be saren (the organic parts) was just burned off, what was left was controlled like a husk. Indoctrination is another tool in their arsenal. Rapid indoctrination is just that, taking control of an organic quickly, leaving then mentally deficient. Nothing physical (other than neurological damage) occurs.

Huskification is just another method of inodctrination. Saren was partially huskified, and it deepened his level of indoctrination. Don't you remember? Saren started having doubts after Vermire, so Sovereign had him implanted and then all of a sudden he stopped doubting again.

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

but they should be :/ there is no other rational explanation for what TIM is doing based on what we've seen in the game.

You are incorrect. blatantly, demonstrably so. I get that you _like_ the idea, but this is how religions start, reading something into nothing.

[Mobius-Silent]

KingZayd wrote...

Huskification is just another method of inodctrination. Saren was partially huskified, and it deepened his level of indoctrination. Don't you remember? Saren started having doubts after Vermire, so Sovereign had him implanted and then all of a sudden he stopped doubting again.

I remember just fine, you have decided that huskification and implantation are the same thing. Accept that you have no proof they are the same and that I disagree. You have also decided that huskification and indoctrination are the same, they are not (according to the codex, that's why they have seperate entries and are described in different ways) 

You are not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you. However I accept you have your view on it. How about you accept that there are other views, and that those views weaken IT.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 03:18 .

[KingZayd]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

but they should be :/ there is no other rational explanation for what TIM is doing based on what we've seen in the game.

You are incorrect. blatantly, demonstrably so. I get that you _like_ the idea, but this is how religions start, reading something into nothing.

yet you haven't managed to demonstrate it. on the other hand, i have yet to see anyone manage to to make a face-value interpretation of the citadel events make any sense at all.

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

but they should be :/ there is no other rational explanation for what TIM is doing based on what we've seen in the game.

You are incorrect. blatantly, demonstrably so. I get that you _like_ the idea, but this is how religions start, reading something into nothing.

HAha, I like your proof.

 

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Huskification is just another method of inodctrination. Saren was partially huskified, and it deepened his level of indoctrination. Don't you remember? Saren started having doubts after Vermire, so Sovereign had him implanted and then all of a sudden he stopped doubting again.

I remember just fine, you have decided that huskification and implantation are the same thing. Accept that you have no proof they are the same and that I disagree. You have also decided that huskification and indoctrination are the same, they are not (according to the codex, that's why they have seperate entries and are described in different ways) 

You are not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you. However I accept you have your view on it. How about you accept that there are other views, and that those views weaken IT.

Huh? Indoctrinated people end up becoming husks anyway. Saren became a husk. Here, thias will help, it's from the ME wiki.

"An excavation team in the ] on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

Modifié par balance5050, 17 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

but they should be :/ there is no other rational explanation for what TIM is doing based on what we've seen in the game.

You are incorrect. blatantly, demonstrably so. I get that you _like_ the idea, but this is how religions start, reading something into nothing.

HAha, I like your proof.

I don't need to prove anything, I can simply provide alternate explainations for the things you provide as "proof" what it presented to us buy the writers is true-by-default if you want to assume trickery, thats fine. If you want to state it's true then you have the burden of proof and your proof is flimsy and circumstantial. As I've illustrated, there are plenty of explainations that do not require a "super secret decoder ring ending"

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 avril 2012 - 03:22 .

[Vox Draco]

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

I agree!

Sadly, every thread having the word "indoctrination" in it ends like this...of course it is right to discuss everything in a forum...but...somehow I get those deja-vus...Always the same people with the same arguments pro and contra...and often not far away from insults and flames...though I never understood why it is so important to proof IT wrong...or right, to be fair. It's all specualtion anyway, only Bioware can really proof it...

I count myself among the IT-supporters, but not even on this side everyone is united. I personally don't think IT will be adressed in a DLC. My heart hopes so, but my brain laughs at me. Not because the theory is silly, but because I have doubts in Bioware about this. I believe they had planned it, put a lot of hints for it into the game, but abandoned it in the end. Maybe they thought it won't work, maybe they lost faith in this plan, maybe they feared a possible fan-backlash (hahahaha! good one, Vox!)

IT, confirmed or not, will stay my head-canon. Because it makes sense for me, because I like it better to end the game in my own head than accepting the silliness of what we have now. Maybe IT will even allow me to play the game again...

So thinking about all this what I wrote...IT is really a little like a religion, isn't it? At least there are enough people defending it with religious fervor, and just as many that are against it, and they are no less fanatical. Funny, if you think about it. It must be a human thing...

[Mobius-Silent]

balance5050 wrote...

Huh? Indoctrinated people end up becoming husks anyway. Saren became a husk. Here, thias will help, it's from the ME wiki.

"An excavation team in the ] on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

No they don't. I knew you'd bring up Aequitas eventually. That is one device, that indoctrinated as a means to then make husks. If there wasn't a demonstrable difference between indoctrination and huskification then the line 
turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination" would not need the word "form" indicating that that was unusual, indicating that this didn't happen normally.

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

but they should be :/ there is no other rational explanation for what TIM is doing based on what we've seen in the game.

You are incorrect. blatantly, demonstrably so. I get that you _like_ the idea, but this is how religions start, reading something into nothing.

HAha, I like your proof.

I don't need to prove anything, I can simply provide alternate explainations for the things you provide as "proof" what it presented to us buy the writers is true-by-default if you want to assume trickery, thats fine. If you want to state it's true then you have the burden of proof and your proof is flimsy and circumstantial. As I've illustrated, there are plenty of explainations that do not require a "super secret decoder ring ending"

Here you go.

The evidence is that he wakes up amongst concrete rubble after just being in the middle of this:

  

 

Also, the white light "dream transition effect is very telling that the ending could be a combination of a dream and being somehow mentally linked to some reaper somehow.


Dreams
http://desmond.image...jpg&res=landing

  
Shepard in Geth consensus



The ending

  

Also, look at Shepards eyes when he chooses either control or synthesize

 

[Unit-Alpha]

How many people actually believe those dreams were just dreams? Seriously? Disregarding IT, they still seems like they were indoctrination-created.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 17 avril 2012 - 03:30 .

[jijeebo]

Xandurpein wrote...

I'd say that the seven pages here are conclusive proof that the answer to the OP's question is no. The community is obviously not in agreement on this...

True dat.

/thread

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Huh? Indoctrinated people end up becoming husks anyway. Saren became a husk. Here, thias will help, it's from the ME wiki.

"An excavation team in the ] on the planet Aequitas found a Reaper artifact that creates advanced husks. This device does not resemble dragon's teeth at all, instead featuring an orb of energy that turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination, according to logs kept by the team, before it started creating more husks."

No they don't. I knew you'd bring up Aequitas eventually. That is one device, that indoctrinated as a means to then make husks. If there wasn't a demonstrable difference between indoctrination and huskification then the line 
turned the excavation team into husks with what appears to be a form of indoctrination" would not need the word "form" indicating that that was unusual, indicating that this didn't happen normally.

What? You're arguing semantics. Indoctrination takes many forms... from artifacts, to ships, to tech. If you read the codex you see that they have different methods. You playing thee right game? 

[thinicer]

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Modifié par thinicer, 17 avril 2012 - 03:34 .

[Mobius-Silent]

Vox Draco wrote...

Sadly, every thread having the word "indoctrination" in it ends like this...of course it is right to discuss everything in a forum...but...somehow I get those deja-vus...Always the same people with the same arguments pro and contra...and often not far away from insults and flames...though I never understood why it is so important to proof IT wrong...or right, to be fair. It's all specualtion anyway, only Bioware can really proof it...

I count myself among the IT-supporters, but not even on this side everyone is united. I personally don't think IT will be adressed in a DLC. My heart hopes so, but my brain laughs at me. Not because the theory is silly, but because I have doubts in Bioware about this. I believe they had planned it, put a lot of hints for it into the game, but abandoned it in the end. Maybe they thought it won't work, maybe they lost faith in this plan, maybe they feared a possible fan-backlash (hahahaha! good one, Vox!)

IT, confirmed or not, will stay my head-canon. Because it makes sense for me, because I like it better to end the game in my own head than accepting the silliness of what we have now. Maybe IT will even allow me to play the game again...

So thinking about all this what I wrote...IT is really a little like a religion, isn't it? At least there are enough people defending it with religious fervor, and just as many that are against it, and they are no less fanatical. Funny, if you think about it. It must be a human thing...

Y'see this is fine "It's all specualtion anyway" is fine and great, my blood boils when I see words like "proof" thrown around and people stating without a shadow of a doubt that IT is true. When it is so obviously flimsy. In my opinion it's unintended, given what I know about game development and having looked at the assets in ME3 there is no _way_ that Bioware were planing a grand reveal for the ending, it was simply rushed and shoddy, and I hate that.

As I said I don't need to prove IT is false, it already is false, its a theory until proven true by an actual wake-up-from-the-rubble-and-actually-finish-the-game-ending. Personally I'm ~90% sure that isn't going to happen.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I prefer the intoxication theory myself, in which I drink the memory of the ending away.

[balance5050]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

Sadly, every thread having the word "indoctrination" in it ends like this...of course it is right to discuss everything in a forum...but...somehow I get those deja-vus...Always the same people with the same arguments pro and contra...and often not far away from insults and flames...though I never understood why it is so important to proof IT wrong...or right, to be fair. It's all specualtion anyway, only Bioware can really proof it...

I count myself among the IT-supporters, but not even on this side everyone is united. I personally don't think IT will be adressed in a DLC. My heart hopes so, but my brain laughs at me. Not because the theory is silly, but because I have doubts in Bioware about this. I believe they had planned it, put a lot of hints for it into the game, but abandoned it in the end. Maybe they thought it won't work, maybe they lost faith in this plan, maybe they feared a possible fan-backlash (hahahaha! good one, Vox!)

IT, confirmed or not, will stay my head-canon. Because it makes sense for me, because I like it better to end the game in my own head than accepting the silliness of what we have now. Maybe IT will even allow me to play the game again...

So thinking about all this what I wrote...IT is really a little like a religion, isn't it? At least there are enough people defending it with religious fervor, and just as many that are against it, and they are no less fanatical. Funny, if you think about it. It must be a human thing...

Y'see this is fine "It's all specualtion anyway" is fine and great, my blood boils when I see words like "proof" thrown around and people stating without a shadow of a doubt that IT is true. When it is so obviously flimsy. In my opinion it's unintended, given what I know about game development and having looked at the assets in ME3 there is no _way_ that Bioware were planing a grand reveal for the ending, it was simply rushed and shoddy, and I hate that.

As I said I don't need to prove IT is false, it already is false, its a theory until proven true by an actual wake-up-from-the-rubble-and-actually-finish-the-game-ending. Personally I'm ~90% sure that isn't going to happen.

Sadly, I have already provided you a demonstratable amount of evidence and you haevn't even addressed any of it. Meanwhile you have presented nothing as a counter-point.

THAT'S how these threads usually end.

[balance5050]

thinicer wrote...

I don't know which is worse to be honest with you: the actual endings we got, or the idea that all of it was some indoctrinated hallucination. The actual endings were examples of lazy writing and game development, and the IT assumes the developers were trying to trick us and be clever.

So how is the IT any better? It still results in a highly unsatisfying ending to a memorable story. The only reason the IT gained traction was because desperate fanboys, upset over the endings, tried desperately make sense out of them by looking for things that aren't actually there and evident. The IT presumes that, eventually, Bioware will release new and totally different endings to the game. There are going to be a lot of disappointed people.

It's not going to happen, and Bioware has already come out and said that the endings are going to stand. Time to let it go.

Again, nice eveidence you have presented.

[BouncyCaitian]

and as the Devils Advocate.....who's to say that 'starkid' wasn't lying

Take this as an Idea. Catalyst was a perceptual fail safe built in by the Reapers to activate when the various organics and synthetics technologies rose to the point of being a true threat. Instead of the Brute force indoctrination that we are familiar with.

It takes the far more subtle approach of showing things which are of value at a very low level to particularly resistant resistors, showing very instinctual cues to the subject to break their will, while the basic indoctrination is still at work. I could see the reapers developing such a thing to corrupt and break particularly willful holdouts. They've been doing this for some time and might have run into such capabilities before.

Shepard might have been one of the first that ran into the contingency, and thus it wasn't quite adapted to Shepard's personality, thus leading to some of the nonsensical weirdness.

just my two cents