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[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Faerunner wrote...

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
The spirit of Shartan says at the Gauntlet: "It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium."

Just FYI, Shartan eventually became a "devotee of Andraste", it's mentioned in the codex entry for Glandivalis

A devotee can be simply a devoted follower or devoted to a religion.  The codex never specifies which Shartan is. I choose to believe that he was a devoted friend and companion of Andraste (much like Fenris to Hawke if you win him over) but it seems a waste to fight for his people's freedom only to have them bow to a new human nation and religion. So much for elven independence in that case.

I ohnestly did not know that he was a devotee of Andrastee. I feel so vindicated .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

To Fearunner,

"..which shartan..." It couldn't be more clear which Shartan.

[Big I]

So at one point (before the Exalted March on the Dales) the Canticle of Shartan was an official part of the Chant. It'd be pretty odd for part of the Chantry's religious doctrine being based on the words of a pagan elf.


I assumed "devotee" means he converted to belief in the Maker after knowing Andraste.

[whykikyouwhy]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

So at one point (before the Exalted March on the Dales) the Canticle of Shartan was an official part of the Chant. It'd be pretty odd for part of the Chantry's religious doctrine being based on the words of a pagan elf.


I assumed "devotee" means he converted to belief in the Maker after knowing Andraste.

I don't necessarily disagree. It is entirely possible that Shartan converted to the faith, and chose to believe in the Maker (or at least in Andraste's link to some kind of divine intervention).

But...it's entirely possible that his story was borrowed to be used within the Chant as a means of showing that all peoples can/will/should follow the one Maker, or to showcase the Maker's power. So too, the Canticle's verse doesn't really speak of matters of faith:

At Shartan’s word, the sky Grew black with arrows. At Our Lady’s, ten thousand swords Rang from their sheaths, A great hymn rose over Valarian Fields gladly proclaiming: Those who had been slaves were now free.

"Our Lady" is capitalized probably as an honorific term, and it may not mean that Andraste was worshipped as a divine being, but recognized for prowess, or for the divine powers/magicks that she had control of (after a fashion). It could also be a holy term to denote her, depending on who this section of the chant was written by. So Shartan spoke and the elven armies moved. Andraste spoke and her forces moved. And thus the people were freed through their united might. I think the inclusion of this verse may have been to glorify Andraste role in this moment in history...and as such, in turn, glorify the Maker.

Just some speculation, mind you. I think it's all a little too hazy to state with any certainty that Shartan believed X. I think the most concrete thing we can hold fast to is that Shartan, in the very least, did respect Andraste. 

[Gervaise]

Just thought I would point out that Andraste did not create the Chantry or its system of worship - that occurred at the time the Emperor Drakon established his empire. Up until then it would seem there were many cults of Andraste with their own version of the chant - also not written down until after her death.

Andraste was promoting knowledge and worship of the Maker as opposed to the false (demon) gods of the Tevinter Imperium. Even Sebastian suggests when talking with Merrill that perhaps they are both describing the same divine force when discussing the Maker and Elven gods (since both traditions have the Maker/gods abandoning the world and falling silent at the time of the rise of the Tevinter Imperium and their gods). It is perfectly possible that Shartan came to see it in a similar way.

Certainly Andrase/Maferath seemed to have no problem in promising him an land where the elves could live and rule themselves. Even though Maferath betrayed Andraste, he kept his promise to the elves after her death and gave them the Dales and presumably was well aware of their religious beliefs - so effectively the betrayers of the elves (and in some ways of Andraste too) were the Chantry. They would appear to be aware of this because they removed all reference to Shartan and his contribution to Andraste's success (she might well have lost the Battle of the Valarian fields without his assistance) from the Chant at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales. I think the original content with Shartan extended to far more than the few versus recorded in Origins. It must have done, otherwise where did Sister Petrine get her information from about Glandivalis?

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

To Gervais,

There were elves practicing dark magic.. Hence, the exalted march. So technically, it was not a betrayal .But there are  yet no historical evidence which would validate either the claims of the dales or the chantry on this issue. However, if there are such evidence...lemme know.

Modifié par Gwindor The Witchhunter, 26 avril 2012 - 03:52 .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Gervaise wrote...

Just thought I would point out that Andraste did not create the Chantry or its system of worship

The chantry based their religion on the teachings of Andraste. Anyway, the first followers of Andraste probably contributed to the formation of the chantry. I think Bioware has yet to fill that gap in chantry history.

Modifié par Gwindor The Witchhunter, 26 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[Urzon]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...

To Gervais,

There were elves practicing dark magic.. Hence, the exalted march. So technically, it was not a betrayal .But there are  yet no historical evidence which would validate either the claims of the dales or the chantry on this issue. However, if there are such evidence...lemme know.

The White Chantry classifies alot of branches of magic as "dark/forbidden magic". Morrigan's shapeshifting magic is technically a forbidden magic. So, the Chantry would classify her as a maleficar. I'm sure that would also apply to the Dalish Keeper's magic as well, since that is magic outside of the Circle/Chantry.

The chantry based their religion on the teachings of Andraste. Anyway, the first followers of Andraste probably contributed to the formation of the chantry. I think Bioware has yet to fill that gap in chantry history.

There were about 150 year time difference begin the death of Andraste and when the Chantry was officially formed. Years after her death, her followers started collecting her teachings into the Chant of Light, but there were many different versions, just as there were many different Cults of the Maker at that time.

One of the bigger cults set themselves up in Orlais and got their leader as a convert. When said leader started conquering the neighboring lands, he made that Cult of the Maker into the Chantry, and he then made it into the official religion of his empire.

Modifié par Urzon, 26 avril 2012 - 05:30 .

[Gwindor The Witchhunter]

Urzon wrote...

[

There were about 150 year time difference begin the death of Andraste and when the Chantry was officially formed. Years after her death, her followers started collecting her teachings into the Chant of Light, but there were many different versions, just as there were many different Cults of the Maker at that time.

One of the bigger cults set themselves up in Orlais and got their leader as a convert. When said leader started conquering the neighboring lands, he made that Cult of the Maker into the Chantry, and he then made it into the official religion of his empire.

What many different versions?

By leader, you meant Drakon right? Anycase,which cult derived itself directlly from the very first followers of  Andraste? By first, i mean shartan and other who followed Andraste from when she lived. Any idea??

[Urzon]

Gwindor The Witchhunter wrote...


What many different versions?

By leader, you meant Drakon right? Anycase,which cult derived itself directlly from the very first followers of  Andraste? By first, i mean shartan and other who followed Andraste from when she lived. Any idea??

Alot of her most loyal followers carried her ashes back to Ferelden, where they built the temple in the mountains that we see ingame. They then settled and founded the town of Haven to guard the ashes. So sadly enough, her first followers were later turned into a dragon cult., under the misguided attempt of still worshipping her. Shartan left with his people to settle the Dales i'd imagine.

As for the different versions of the Chant of Light, i'd have to go with difference of opinion. People took different means of her word then others. They argued about this, then made the different verisons of what they thought Andraste meant. Her group of followers then split and separated because of that. That was why there were so many different Cults of the Maker, each supported a different Chant of Light. The Chantry we see today was only one of the more popular/powerful ones.

What Andraste really said and meant are still up for debate, Because like most religious texts, they were gathered and written down many years after the fact. Where memories have faded, and the personal opinions of the writers might blur certain matters.

[Gervaise]

Whilst the Haven cult of Andraste eventually did turn to dragon worship, their original set up with a reverend father instead of mother pre-dated this. So it is reasonable to assume this was a variant form of Maker worship.
There was also the group of worshipers up in the region of Amaranthine who held a tradition that Maferath had been visited by a vision of Andraste in which she forgave him for his betrayal. And Archon Hessarian was said to have been one of the first to convert to the worship of the Maker, which some claim was because so many of his people had turned to veneration of Andraste, it was the only way he could cling on to power. It is entirely possible that the denial that Andraste was anything other than a prophet (not the Maker's bride) in the Tevinter version of the Chantry actually dates to that time.
So even on the basis on history so far revealled in the games there is evidence that there were many different cults and ideas about Andraste before the formation of the Orlesian Chantry.

As for the Dalish elves, one of the chief accusations against them was that they refused to help against the second blight. This started a bare few years after the formation of the Orlesian Chantry and the establishment of the Empire of Orlais, so it would be entirely possible for someone to view the Blight as the Maker's verdict on the actions of the Emperor Drakon, particularly as I believe it started in the area of Orlais. So whether the elves followed the Maker or not. since they were trying to recover their old traditions and this included the belief that they had somehow offended their deities during the rise of a previous human empire, it is hardly surprising they wished to distance themselves from anything connected with Orlais. They weren't against fighting the darkspawn in principle since they later signed treaties with the Grey Wardens, pledging their support. Likewise initially it was only Orlais and the Chantry that the Dalish directed their offensive against. This Dalish weren't entirely innocent in this story but it does seem convenient that a strategically important strip of land fell under the control of Orlais after their defeat. I have always found it rather suspicious that it wasn't possible for the conquered elves to be allowed to remain in their homeland provided they submitted to Chantry rule but instead were herded into ghettoes within human cities. Until Bioware expand on the history of that time, it seems to me it was first and foremost an illegal landgrab by Orlais under guise of an Exalted March.