23 réponses à ce sujet

[AshedMan]

 I finally picked up Dragon Age 2 after hearing such horrible fan reactions.  The price was next to nothing, so why not give it a shot?  All I can say is... What has happened to you, BioWare?  This is the laziest bit of gaming I've ever seen come from you.  I can only imagine two completely different teams/managers made DA:O and DA2.  They aren't even remotely similar in quality.  

Is this the kind of "bleh" gaming I can expect if I ever get ME3?  I guess we'll find out when it hits the $5 bargain bin.  

[Uccio]

The reason why I haven´t bought ME3. Will remain to be seen if I will buy it from the super sale either considering all the feedback I´ve been reading.

Modifié par Ukki, 17 avril 2012 - 02:25 .

[Khayness]

AshedMan wrote...

Is this the kind of "bleh" gaming I can expect if I ever get ME3?

The story is all right, up to the ending, then it's up to personal preference. The combat mechanics are smoother and the skill system leaves you room for TheoryCrafting and tailoring the skilltree to your personal playstyle. Sadly the encounter design is lacking compared to ME2, there are fewer memorable fights imo, it's all about background spectacle now.

But since it will see changes via DLC, I'd definetly wait for the bargain bin.

P.s.: Any news on DA2 Ultimate Edition? I have no interest in buying the DLC for more than the actual full game price.

[P1NG]

Both games were designed to be less or RPGs and more of action-adventure cinematic games. Its part of Bioware trying to develop mass market appeal for their games. DA:O --> DA:2 is a far more dramatic change than ME --> ME:2 or ME:2 --> ME:3, but that is because ME was already not so much of a traditional RPG to begin with. If you are looking for a game where your ingame choices will have relevance to the story than neither game will suit you, if your looking for something that falls between movie and an action adventure game w/some RPG elements ME:3 will probably be worth something, I wouldn't pay $59.99 for it or however many euros it runs for over the pond.

[ScotGaymer]

AshedMan wrote...

 I finally picked up Dragon Age 2 after hearing such horrible fan reactions.  The price was next to nothing, so why not give it a shot?  All I can say is... What has happened to you, BioWare?  This is the laziest bit of gaming I've ever seen come from you.  I can only imagine two completely different teams/managers made DA:O and DA2.  They aren't even remotely similar in quality.  

Is this the kind of "bleh" gaming I can expect if I ever get ME3?  I guess we'll find out when it hits the $5 bargain bin.  

There is a lot about DA2 that does scream "lazy" but I can assure you that it wasn't laziness that caused those problems.

There is one thing/person to blame for DA2's problems.

John Riccitiello, and his drive to have ALL EA games release new iterations annually to minimise costs and maximise profit.

It isn't a bad goal strictly speaking, spending less and making more, but releasing a sequential title every year simply results in the game getting progressively crappier with each iteration until eventually even paid off critics stop praising it and it dies.
It isn't surprising that that strategy isn't working. It comes from a man who wants to have a game developed, and then chopped up and sold in pieces (for full price) to consumers.

EA set a strict release date for the DAO sequel, and they wanted it out before ME3 probably to avoid it overshadowing its more flashy cousin (DAO outsold ME1 and 2 after all).

The strict release date resulted in a severe lack of development time, which resulted in the Dev Team having to make a number of decisions on stuff to cut/not implement. And make decisions on where to cut corners in order to meet the deadline.
Hence the overall lazy rushed release feeling.

For the record DA2 isn't that bad.

Its a 6.5 or 7 out of 10. Which is respectable, it is just not what we are used to from Bioware (we r used to 9 out of 10) and that's why so many people were so negative about it.

I mean it could be worse. It could have had an ending that was universe ruining, narrative shattering, and nonsensically lore breaking like ME3 does. Instead it's ending is just crap.

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 17 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[AkiKishi]

AshedMan wrote...

Is this the kind of "bleh" gaming I can expect if I ever get ME3?  I guess we'll find out when it hits the $5 bargain bin.  

ME 3 is a game of highs and lows. Remember those side quests in DA2, find item A return to point B ? Those make up around 40% of the ME3 quests. The others are horde mode attacks on multiplayer maps.

The genophage/Quarian/Geth part is very good. But everything is lack luster and ending sucks.

Gameplay wise, it's playable but very glitchy. All in not as good as ME2.

[KDD-0063]

Khayness wrote...

AshedMan wrote...

Is this the kind of "bleh" gaming I can expect if I ever get ME3?

The story is all right, up to the ending, then it's up to personal preference. The combat mechanics are smoother and the skill system leaves you room for TheoryCrafting and tailoring the skilltree to your personal playstyle. Sadly the encounter design is lacking compared to ME2, there are fewer memorable fights imo, it's all about background spectacle now.

But since it will see changes via DLC, I'd definetly wait for the bargain bin.

P.s.: Any news on DA2 Ultimate Edition? I have no interest in buying the DLC for more than the actual full game price.

Well, the problem with alright uo to the ending is like a peanut butter jelly sandwich with good peanut butter and bread, but the jelly tastes like turd. Then, you guessed it, the whole sandwich will taste like turd.

[ScotGaymer]

KDD-0063 wrote...


Well, the problem with alright uo to the ending is like a peanut butter jelly sandwich with good peanut butter and bread, but the jelly tastes like turd. Then, you guessed it, the whole sandwich will taste like turd.

I don't quite agree. I do not think it is THAT bad, but I do see your point.

At least there is something good from DA2 and its ending that the DA dev team can take. It sucked, but it made sense even if it was bad.
To me ME3's ending was a LOT worse.

To me the end of DA2 was listening to a orchestra and at the last note one instrument hits a bum note. It makes you blink in surprise, but it doesn't completely ruin the overall performance of the whole piece.
By contrast the ending of ME3 is akin to listening to the same orchestra and instead of one person hitting a bum note, the whole lot of them abruptly fling down their instruments with a clatter at the end. Instead of blinking briefly and having a fleeting "oh, oops" feeling you flinch and think "god that was bad. won't be seeing this orchestra again."

The DA dev team can take some comfort from that I suppose.

[jbrand2002uk]

He paid $5 for the game and is still complaining, warning warning troll alert warning warning troll alert......

[deuce985]

Actually, DA2 did have different creative leads...so that probably is why the game feels so different.

The original lead left after DA:O.

[AshedMan]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

He paid $5 for the game and is still complaining, warning warning troll alert warning warning troll alert......

I'm not entitled to an opinion of the game because it was purchased on sale?  If you would like to add to the discussion then please do. 

[bEVEsthda]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

KDD-0063 wrote...


Well, the problem with alright uo to the ending is like a peanut butter jelly sandwich with good peanut butter and bread, but the jelly tastes like turd. Then, you guessed it, the whole sandwich will taste like turd.

I don't quite agree. I do not think it is THAT bad, but I do see your point.

At least there is something good from DA2 and its ending that the DA dev team can take. It sucked, but it made sense even if it was bad.
To me ME3's ending was a LOT worse.

To me the end of DA2 was listening to a orchestra and at the last note one instrument hits a bum note. It makes you blink in surprise, but it doesn't completely ruin the overall performance of the whole piece.
By contrast the ending of ME3 is akin to listening to the same orchestra and instead of one person hitting a bum note, the whole lot of them abruptly fling down their instruments with a clatter at the end. Instead of blinking briefly and having a fleeting "oh, oops" feeling you flinch and think "god that was bad. won't be seeing this orchestra again."

The DA dev team can take some comfort from that I suppose.

Not at the end. They throw down their instruments with clatter, a good 20 minutes before the end, just as they're building towards the finale, and just walk out.

Later, management issues a declaration that an expanded program, "clarifying" the "artistic vision", will be printed.


P.S. Actually, the more I think about it, such a concert would be a hell of a lot more interesting and artistic, than ME3's ending, so I'm doing something wrong here.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 17 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[Uccio]

P1NG wrote...

Both games were designed to be less or RPGs and more of action-adventure cinematic games. Its part of Bioware trying to develop mass market appeal for their games. DA:O --> DA:2 is a far more dramatic change than ME --> ME:2 or ME:2 --> ME:3, but that is because ME was already not so much of a traditional RPG to begin with. If you are looking for a game where your ingame choices will have relevance to the story than neither game will suit you, if your looking for something that falls between movie and an action adventure game w/some RPG elements ME:3 will probably be worth something, I wouldn't pay $59.99 for it or however many euros it runs for over the pond.

That would be 49.90 eur last time I checked, atleast here.

[Sejborg]

Khayness wrote...

P.s.: Any news on DA2 Ultimate Edition? I have no interest in buying the DLC for more than the actual full game price.

I found some playthroughs of the DLC on youtube. It was quite boring. Glad I didn't use money on it. 

[jbrand2002uk]

AshedMan wrote...

jbrand2002uk wrote...

He paid $5 for the game and is still complaining, warning warning troll alert warning warning troll alert......

I'm not entitled to an opinion of the game because it was purchased on sale?  If you would like to add to the discussion then please do. 

Not when you bought it for about the price of a gallon of gasoline or a pint of beer no had you paid $20+ then yes 

[Atakuma]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

He paid $5 for the game and is still complaining, warning warning troll alert warning warning troll alert......

This coming from the guy who is constantly provoking poeple for no reason.

[Dakota Strider]

FitScotGaymer wrote...

(snip snip)

The strict release date resulted in a severe lack of development time, which resulted in the Dev Team having to make a number of decisions on stuff to cut/not implement. And make decisions on where to cut corners in order to meet the deadline.
Hence the overall lazy rushed release feeling.

Pretty much agree with everything else you said, just wanted to take a little bit different spin on the above:

I would argue, that the DA2 team had plenty of time to make a high-quality game, that should not have felt rushed.  The problem was, instead of using the same game engine and mechanics of DAO, they chose to totally reinvent the game engine.  People loved DAO, yet for some reason the new Bioware team thought it needed a drastic overhaul, even though it was still being sold under the Dragon Age bannor.  If they wanted to create a brand new campaign, with different histories, and/or a different world, and call it something like "Locked into One City Age", then it would have been acceptable to change the game so drastically.  But when people bought DA2, for the most part, they expected to get DAO, with a new story, and some tweeks. 

Bioware did not change game engines in the middle of their other successful game series that I can recall.  I can only personally speak for the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series.   This consistancy meant, the fans knew what they were going to buy, and not get blindsided.  And it gives the Bioware team much more time to work on the story, rather than try to reinvent the game.  You would think, just for the reason of profits, that they would not want to change game engines in the middle of a series.  Save the big changes for a new series, or at least get two or three good sized titles out of the original before making a new change.

------
And, it is my belief, if someone spent 5 cents at a retail store for a productt, they are justified to come to the forums and ask for better in the future.  If we start setting prices for mediocrity, then we are setting ourselves up for even bigger disappointments.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 17 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[jbrand2002uk]

Ashed likely knew what to expect yet likely just bought it for $5 to attempt to give some justification to let him have a whine about a game he knew beforehand he wouldnt like he must have know what to expect unless he's been living in the dark ages for over a year.

But alas DA2 bashing seems to be the hip thing once again it would be a fair bet that most of the bashing by forumites is simply jumping on the bandwagon without having actually played the game at all

[AshedMan]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Ashed likely knew what to expect yet likely just bought it for $5 to attempt to give some justification to let him have a whine about a game he knew beforehand he wouldnt like he must have know what to expect unless he's been living in the dark ages for over a year.

But alas DA2 bashing seems to be the hip thing once again it would be a fair bet that most of the bashing by forumites is simply jumping on the bandwagon without having actually played the game at all

I freely admit that I avoided this game until it had a super sale specifically because of all the negative fan reactions.  I think I made that clear from the first post.  What was shocking was just how right everyone was!  All of the criticisms I've read were  valid and true.  It's alarming to play such an inferior product from what used to be such a superior developer.  

[seraphymon]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Ashed likely knew what to expect yet likely just bought it for $5 to attempt to give some justification to let him have a whine about a game he knew beforehand he wouldnt like he must have know what to expect unless he's been living in the dark ages for over a year.

But alas DA2 bashing seems to be the hip thing once again it would be a fair bet that most of the bashing by forumites is simply jumping on the bandwagon without having actually played the game at all

That doesnt matter. Wether you borrow it from a friend, pay 5 bucks or pay 60. That doesnt make any of those opinions more/less valid than the next.

He made it clear that he waited because of critiscism. but like anything else, not just games, you cant really know for sure, until you play, watch, listen for yourself. he was just confirming or agreeing with what he heard, and finally being able to make his own decision on it, since he has now had a chance to play it.

[ScotGaymer]

Dakota Strider wrote...

FitScotGaymer wrote...

(snip snip)

The strict release date resulted in a severe lack of development time, which resulted in the Dev Team having to make a number of decisions on stuff to cut/not implement. And make decisions on where to cut corners in order to meet the deadline.
Hence the overall lazy rushed release feeling.

Pretty much agree with everything else you said, just wanted to take a little bit different spin on the above:

I would argue, that the DA2 team had plenty of time to make a high-quality game, that should not have felt rushed.  The problem was, instead of using the same game engine and mechanics of DAO, they chose to totally reinvent the game engine.  People loved DAO, yet for some reason the new Bioware team thought it needed a drastic overhaul, even though it was still being sold under the Dragon Age bannor.  If they wanted to create a brand new campaign, with different histories, and/or a different world, and call it something like "Locked into One City Age", then it would have been acceptable to change the game so drastically.  But when people bought DA2, for the most part, they expected to get DAO, with a new story, and some tweeks. 

Bioware did not change game engines in the middle of their other successful game series that I can recall.  I can only personally speak for the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights series.   This consistancy meant, the fans knew what they were going to buy, and not get blindsided.  And it gives the Bioware team much more time to work on the story, rather than try to reinvent the game.  You would think, just for the reason of profits, that they would not want to change game engines in the middle of a series.  Save the big changes for a new series, or at least get two or three good sized titles out of the original before making a new change.

------
And, it is my belief, if someone spent 5 cents at a retail store for a productt, they are justified to come to the forums and ask for better in the future.  If we start setting prices for mediocrity, then we are setting ourselves up for even bigger disappointments.

Um see, problem with that is you are wrong.

It IS the same engine. I know it doesn't look it, but it really is. It's been heavily modified and optimised since DAO granted, but still the same engine.

I am grateful you agree with me but I am 90% sure both games use the same engine.

Keep in mind they developed DA2 in 15 months from the release of DAO, and in that time they released numerous DLC for DAO and an expansion so for a good 8 months of that part of the team was still working on DAO and not on DA2.
So if you discount time that parts of the team were still working on DAO stuff, and discount QA time/the post-gold phase on the other side so we can assume that we are looking at the whole team being focussed on and dedicated to DA2 for about 6 to 8 months tops.

It's an extremely short amount of time to adequately develop a game.

And when you think about it what they managed to put together in that time was pretty good.

The game would have been tolerable for most people had the ending not sucked as hard as it did; and they only needed to make one change to that to make it work.
Change who has the Lyrium Idol weapon depending on who you side with.

You side with Templars? Then Orsino has a Dark Lyrium Idol staff, and is the one that goes bonkers. To solve the problem of Meredith not being killed you could have Orsino bump her off in a cut scene at the Gallows before Hawke can react.
Then you fight him in waves as he retreats into the deeper parts of the Gallows.

Wave One= Gallows Court Yard. Just him as normal mage and some mages who are not thralls but dupes.
Wave Two= Gallows inner courtyard near Merediths office. Orsino now displays blood magic abilities and fights you with some blood mage allies and templar thralls.
Wave Three= The last room (where he turns against Hawke in canon). Orsino fights you with mage and templar thralls. Once they are dead he uses their corpses to turn himself into HarvesterOrsino.

One he is defeated have him do the shrieking "i can't lose, i must protect the mages!" bit then die.

Siding with the mages would have things go canonically, except for Meredith running through Orsino before he can help you or you him, before he can go bad.

That small change would have made the game feel A LOT better in spite of its flaws.

[LegendaryBlade]

How else were they supposed to get that Call of Duty audience bro? Button = Awesome.

Long story short, they thought streamlining the game and making it more action than RPG would get them a wider target audience. It didn't.

[Das Tentakel]

AshedMan wrote...

I freely admit that I avoided this game until it had a super sale specifically because of all the negative fan reactions.  I think I made that clear from the first post.  What was shocking was just how right everyone was!  All of the criticisms I've read were  valid and true.  It's alarming to play such an inferior product from what used to be such a superior developer.  

I paid 18 euros and that felt, like, 8 too much.

I envy your getting DA2 for 5 dollars, sir

I could have drunk 6 latte macchiatos for those 8 euros