57 réponses à ce sujet

[Dwarva]

I'm on my third (or fourth?) playthrough and just can't get my head round this (other than 'suspend belief'). Every time they go into Kirkwall at night they're set upon by thieves and gangs. Surely some random passer by notices they're shooting fireballs at them and tells a Templar? And wouldn't said Templar rock on up to Hawkes house and take her in? Or is there an 'understanding'?

Or have I missed some crit piece of dialogue?

[LobselVith8]

For the same reason Cullen can fight alongside apostate Hawke, Merrill, and Anders, and not realize that Hawke and Merrill are apostates. Or why the templar Keran doesn't realize apostate Hawke is an illegal mage when Carver mentions it right in front of him.

Then again, none of the templars seem to care that the two children of a known apostate are simply hanging out in Kirkwall, when the children of mages belong to the Chantry.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2012 - 04:15 .

[berelinde]

I figure that when fighting breaks out in the streets, people in Kirkwall do what people in the rest of the world do when fighting breaks out in the street: run for cover. Once it's all over, they may peer out and wonder why there are scorch-marks on the bodies and the architecture, but they were probably too busy trying not to get spitted by a random Guard Pretender to get a good look at the guy with the big stick. And even if they did realize what they were seeing was magic and not peculiar lighting and/or a chokedamp explosion, they would still have to run to the Gallows, find a templar who wasn't too busy standing guard duty or molesting an apprentice, convince the guy that he wasn't crazy, and then lead the templar back to where the fight was. By that time, Hawke and Company would be long gone.

As for Cullen, I'm going to have to go with elective discretion. He must know the truth about Hawke/Anders/Merrill/Bethany. He has seen mages before. Perhaps he is grateful to them for helping him deal with Wilmot. Perhaps he believes that Hawke/Anders/Merrill/(not Bethany) are more dangerous inciting the Circle within than they are at large. Perhaps he does it as a favor to the Amell Warden he loved and lost. Or maybe he questions the necessity of dragging every mage in to custody. Some might say that this makes him a bad templar, but the alternative is willful stupidity.

[Kavatica]

berelinde wrote...

I figure that when fighting breaks out in the streets, people in Kirkwall do what people in the rest of the world do when fighting breaks out in the street: run for cover. 

This would work as an explanation, except for the fact that often when Hawke is fighting, random citizens are actually standing right there, doing nothing. 

I think suspension of disbelief is the best way to go.

[prizm123]

someone starts coming at you with the intent of hurting or killing you and a well known criminal shoots them , thus saving your life and doesn't ask anything in return, and helps you out, would YOU turn them in? knowing that they are sort of looking out for you and your friends?

[Tommyspa]

If people start reporting Hawke and his mage pals it would completely bog down the game with too many runaway scenes or "burn the witch!" scenarios, it is a plot hole you have to take for the sake of gameplay.

[Cantina]

In Origins if you were a mage people were aware of what you
were, especially the Templars. In Kirkwall, I would have assumed the same thing
would have happened, but it never did.

Hell my first play through I thought traveling from Kirkwall
to Sundermount or where ever on the mountainside would result in an ambush from
the Templars, but it never came. I thought this would have occurred up and until
you completed the quest “Enemies among Us.”


Someone made a video about this topic:

[Dwarva]

prizm123 wrote...

someone starts coming at you with the intent of hurting or killing you and a well known criminal shoots them , thus saving your life and doesn't ask anything in return, and helps you out, would YOU turn them in? knowing that they are sort of looking out for you and your friends?

Yeah and that's fine for certain characters. But as someone else said, random passerbys often just hang around chatting while you're fireballing the crap out of an enemy. So you're not really 'saving' them...

[Quill74Pen]

If you play as a Hawke mage, there is a scene involving Meredith that can be triggered where she basically says she knows exactly what you are, and is keeping tabs on you, but since you're overall an asset for Kirkwall, she won't move against you.

Presumably, the other templars are aware of Meredith's stance on a mage Hawke, and act accordingly.

Quill74Pen

[G00N3R7883]

I agree it does feel a bit strange. Better NPC reactions in DA3 would be nice.

Of course DA2 isn't the only culprit. I've been playing Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood questline recently. I've finished the main quest and now I'm doing some random bonus quests. More than once I've walked into a crowded tavern to meet an NPC, who said (loudly) "OH HI, YOU MUST BE THE DARK BROTHERHOOD ASSASSIN, I WANT YOU TO KILL THE ITINERENT LUMBERJACK AT MORTHAL" ... nobody else seemed to care.

I think its just a limitation of games in general. Maybe one day the industry's focus will be on better AI rather than "teh shiney grafiks".

[Cantina]

G00N3R7883 wrote...

I agree it does feel a bit strange. Better NPC reactions in DA3 would be nice.

Of course DA2 isn't the only culprit. I've been playing Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood questline recently. I've finished the main quest and now I'm doing some random bonus quests. More than once I've walked into a crowded tavern to meet an NPC, who said (loudly) "OH HI, YOU MUST BE THE DARK BROTHERHOOD ASSASSIN, I WANT YOU TO KILL THE ITINERENT LUMBERJACK AT MORTHAL" ... nobody else seemed to care.

I think its just a limitation of games in general. Maybe one day the industry's focus will be on better AI rather than "teh shiney grafiks".

<shakes head> I do not know if you played the previous Elder games but those were the same in regards to what you mentioned. As for Dragon Age is a whole diffrent ballpark when the previous game you were reconized as a mage and then next you are not.

Yes, Meradith knows you are a mage and may have warned the other Templars, but it still does not excuse Cullen being so dumb-seriously watch the video I posted.

[AlexJK]

It's one of the most bizarre and jarring "features" of DA2. For non-mage Hawke Bethany is *constantly* blabbering about not wanting to go to areas where there might be a templar... and yet it never matters. Except at the end of act 1 of course, then it matters, and you have no option to fight the templars (which given that you've just defeated a DRAGON is a fight you might have reason to think you'd win?)

[LobselVith8]

G00N3R7883 wrote...

I agree it does feel a bit strange. Better NPC reactions in DA3 would be nice.

Of course DA2 isn't the only culprit. I've been playing Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood questline recently. I've finished the main quest and now I'm doing some random bonus quests. More than once I've walked into a crowded tavern to meet an NPC, who said (loudly) "OH HI, YOU MUST BE THE DARK BROTHERHOOD ASSASSIN, I WANT YOU TO KILL THE ITINERENT LUMBERJACK AT MORTHAL" ... nobody else seemed to care.

I think its just a limitation of games in general. Maybe one day the industry's focus will be on better AI rather than "teh shiney grafiks".

The guards comment on your protagonist being a member of the Dark Brotherhood. They know about your assassinations, and comment on some of them. They about the Black Door in Dawnstar. They even know when you are in a Hold to kill someone, and plead with you that the people in the Hold are "good... for the most part." Some of them even tell you, "Hail Sithis."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 18 avril 2012 - 04:06 .

[GavrielKay]

I have a vague memory of a conversation very early in the game where a Templar (Cullen?) tells Hawke that the Templars in Kirkwall are actually getting less support from the citizens than they normally get in communities due to Meredith's death grip on the city. I suppose that helps to explain why the citizens don't turn Hawke in, but why the city guards or random Templars don't is probably just a matter of game play demands.

Later in the game they make a point of telling mage Hawke that she's allowed freedom due to her status and popularity, but in Act 1 I don't think there's any good reason.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Yes. It doesn't seem to matter whether you support the mages or the templars or are a blood mage or not. The story plays out much the same. It is a huge problem that your class and decisions are rarely taken into account. It kind of makes the whole plot unbelievable. No rationalization can take my disbelief away.

Edit: Think about this... Although mages are being hunted for what they are, merchants can openly sell mage related stuff and can even specialize in gear for blood mages. Ghehe.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[TheChris92]

Why are no dwarven NPCs, in Orzammar, surprised by the sight of an actual golem walking around, namely Shale?

[Matchy Pointy]

I seem to recall there was a plot tied to this that got cut. When you are the Champion though, you have plenty of clout in the city so.

[Melca36]

Staarbux wrote...

I'm on my third (or fourth?) playthrough and just can't get my head round this (other than 'suspend belief'). Every time they go into Kirkwall at night they're set upon by thieves and gangs. Surely some random passer by notices they're shooting fireballs at them and tells a Templar? And wouldn't said Templar rock on up to Hawkes house and take her in? Or is there an 'understanding'?

Or have I missed some crit piece of dialogue?

I believe there was mention of the game already being done and it was too late to change anything when the writing was finished.

[AngryFrozenWater]

TheChris92 wrote...

Why are no dwarven NPCs, in Orzammar, surprised by the sight of an actual golem walking around, namely Shale?

And what does that have to do with the topic, other than trying to derail it? We were promised that our desions would "shape the world".

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 avril 2012 - 05:14 .

[TEWR]

I believe there was mention of the game already being done and it was too late to change anything when the writing was finished.

That's just a poor excuse we were given. Either they're just giving off excuses to justify the bad game design or there is a gigantic disconnect between everyone at Bioware.

And I don't know which to believe, because both are equally likely.

Fact: Bioware had made it clear from the get-go that Hawke would be human only, but they retained the classes. Which means that an apostate should've had recognition in game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I can't buy this line of thought about how they "didn't think of it". The game was specifically written about Mages and Templars, so of course blood mage was going to be a specialization available to the player. A fair portion of the game deals with blood magic and blood magic was a key part of the setting's background, so the devs should've known that blood mage was going to be a spec available to the players -- and by extension the Reaver class since it's also a form of blood magic -- in DAII.

Being a blood mage didn't even have any recognition in Legacy which was almost entirely focused on blood magic.

Think about this. There were 6 mage specs in Origins-Awakening. Bioware removed the Keeper spec and gave it to Merrill.

Now we're at 5.

They felt the Shapeshifter was a bit of a useless spec IIRC and removed the Arcane Warrior for some other reason. One could think that the change in gameplay was done to make Mages their own sort of Arcane Warriors.

Though I don't remember the reason why Arcane Warrior was removed, but I'd like to see it again.

Anyway, now we're down to three: Blood Mage, Spirit Healer, Battlemage.

Out of those 3, which 2 have the most importance to DAII's plot, setting, and history?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 avril 2012 - 05:19 .

[thats1evildude]

There was supposed to be a quest that establishes why the templars don't notice Hawke, but it got scrapped.

There's basically two reasons the templars don't arrest mage-Hawke:

1) If the templars really and truly intended to bring in Hawke, he/she would be forced to leave the city. Even if you defeated the first group of templars to come after you, more would come. Eventually, Hawke would be facing down an entire army.

2) This is really only an issue in Act 1. By Act 2, mage Hawke now has the wealth and connections to shield him/her from the templars. By Act 3, Hawke is now the Champion, and his/her apostate status is irrelevant.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

And what does that have to do with the topic, other than trying to derail it? We were promised that our desions would "shape the world".

The point is that it's not fair to frame this as a DA2-centric complaint. The citizenry was just as apathetic in DAO as in DA2. You could shoot off a dozen fireballs in the Denerim square or have Morrigan turn into a bear right in front of Knight-Commander Greagoir, and no one will so much as bat an eye. Even Shale barely draws any notice.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[TEWR]

The point is that NPCs don't generally notice anything in Dragon Age. You could shoot off a dozen fireballs in the Denerim square or have Morrigan turn into a bear right in front of Knight-Commander Greagoir, and no one will so much as bat an eye.

Still, DAO recognized issues better then DAII. You can tell the Shaper of Memories about Shale and he says that he will tell the other Shapers of this find. Shale even has a specific conversation with Caridin about how she became a Golem.

You are given a good reason why the Templars in Lothering don't concern themselves with apostates at the time of the Warden's arrival. There are bigger concerns to worry about. Some of those Templars even realize that you're a Mage.

You can be told in Redcliffe that you won't be killed for being a Mage. IIRC, Murdock even says something specific to a Female Mage Warden.

Even being a blood mage had recognition, but the content had to be cut because it caused bugs with the Landsmeet. But it can still be enabled via the toolset, so it's still applicable as lore.

DAO was much better at recognizing things about the characters then DAII was. Perfect? No. Great? Probably not.

Better then DAII? Undoubtedly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

thats1evildude wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

And what does that have to do with the topic, other than trying to derail it? We were promised that our desions would "shape the world".

The point is that it's not fair to frame this as a DA2-centric complaint. The citizenry was just as apathetic in DAO as in DA2. You could shoot off a dozen fireballs in the Denerim square or have Morrigan turn into a bear right in front of Knight-Commander Greagoir, and no one will so much as bat an eye. Even Shale barely draws any notice.

That is irrelevant. When I am promised that my decisions would "shape the world" then I like to see that in action. There is no need to defend BW. They do not deserve that after all the promises.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 avril 2012 - 05:32 .

[whykikyouwhy]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

And what does that have to do with the topic, other than trying to derail it? We were promised that our desions would "shape the world".

The point is that it's not fair to frame this as a DA2-centric complaint. The citizenry was just as apathetic in DAO as in DA2. You could shoot off a dozen fireballs in the Denerim square or have Morrigan turn into a bear right in front of Knight-Commander Greagoir, and no one will so much as bat an eye. Even Shale barely draws any notice.

That is irrelevant. When I am promised that my decisions would "shape the world" then I like to see that in action. There is no need to defend BW. They do not deserve that after all the promises.

I don't think it's irrelevant, nor do I get the impression that any defending is going on. It was merely pointed out that the NPCs and passerby in both games do not generally react to the goings-on of the main party.

This nonchalance of matters of magic (or golems) could have been handled differently, sure. Bioware is aware of the concerns with regard to immersion and narrative, particularly with how the mage party members were treated in DA2. I would wager that they will keep those concerns in mind for the next game.

[GavrielKay]

Given DA2 was released, you know, after, DA:O, they had an opportunity to improve those things that DA:O didn't do perfectly. As far as I'm concerned, this renders moot all arguments about how it shouldn't matter that DA2 didn't do something that DA:O didn't do either.

The fact is that being a mage in Kirkwall should be an issue. The Templars have more power in Kirkwall than almost anywhere else. They are presented as hard-liners that should not ignore an apostate running about the city. It's even a little iffy that they ignore a rich apostate, or a Champion apostate later in the game.

A famous apostate running about saving the city ought to be considered a major thorn in the Chantry's side. They make a point of preaching that mages are dangerous and can't be trusted. Having a very powerful mage in such an influential role should make it more likely that Meredith would come after Hawke, not less. After all, once Hawke is in custody, they can make up any story they want to tell the populace.

I can see the announcement now... "Hawke has had a religious experience and now realizes that she wishes to spend the rest of her life in seclusion meditating on the wisdom of Andraste."

Modifié par GavrielKay, 18 avril 2012 - 05:52 .