57 réponses à ce sujet

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Still, DAO recognized issues better then DAII. You can tell the Shaper of Memories about Shale and he says that he will tell the other Shapers of this find. Shale even has a specific conversation with Caridin about how she became a Golem.

Yes, I've had that discussion, and as I recall, he doesn't notice Shale until you specifically point her out to him. Because the giant talking statue standing behind me was so hard to spot.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

That is irrelevant. When I am promised that my decisions would "shape the world" then I like to see that in action. There is no need to defend BW. They do not deserve that after all the promises.

I don't share your feelings. I believe I have had a significant impact on my own world, and I don't see why apathetic citizenry — a completely separate issue in my mind — detracts from that.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[Cutlass Jack]

I'm not seeing the 'decisions that shape the world' in a random street fight. Which is what the OP was commenting on.

You can make a pretty long list of RPGs that have bystanders ignoring whats happening around them. So a little unfair to single out DA2 in that aspect. It did need to be handled better in the main plot part of the game though. I think most people would agree there. And it has been stated by the Devs as something they plan to work on in the future.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 18 avril 2012 - 05:53 .

[LobselVith8]

The problem is that we were told by Mike Laidlaw that Kirkwall would be shaped around Hawke's actions, so it's a valid criticism when we discovered that this wasn't the case. The significant disconnect between the gameplay, and the storyline, also makes it difficult to take it seriously when it makes little sense.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'm not seeing the 'decisions that shape the world' in a random street fight. Which is what the OP was commenting on.

You can make a pretty long list of RPGs that have bystanders ignoring whats happening around them. So a little unfair to single out DA2 in that aspect. It did need to be handled better in the main plot part of the game though. I think most people would agree there. And it has been stated by the Devs as something they plan to work on in the future.

I do not agree with you first statement, Jack. You have decided to become a mage or another class. And maybe even specialized to become a blood mage. You have decided to support the mages or the templars. The citizens can see you fight and thus know what class you have and which side you have chosen. As a mage you even carry a staff and wear a robe and a fitting hat. You are supposed to be or become a legend. That can only happen when you are being watched by the citizens. And thus it should have impact in a random street fight.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[GavrielKay]

Not to mention, Cullen watches you fight during the quest where that one Templar recruit becomes an abomination. It isn't only random bystanders who would have to ignore Hawke.

[TEWR]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I'm not seeing the 'decisions that shape the world' in a random street fight. Which is what the OP was commenting on.

It actually could've affected Kirkwall, fighting all of those nighttime gangs.

Or if you're rooting out the Carta in Act 1, this could've also had an effect on Kirkwall. Or killing the Carta hounding the last Harrowmont.

These "random street fights" could definitely have impacted the game.

[Cutlass Jack]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I do not agree with you first statement, Jack. You have decided to become a mage or another class. And maybe even specialized to become a blood mage. You have decided to support the mages or the templars. The citizens can see you fight and thus know what class you have and which side you have chosen. As a mage you even carry a staff and wear a robe and a fitting hat. You are supposed to be or become a legend. That can only happen when you are being watched by the citizens. And thus it should have impact in a random street fight.

Pfft. It was random filler combat at a time the street was empty of the aforementioned citizens. You didn't decide to be attacked there. Your only decision was to not let them kill you. The only witnesses didnt survive the encounter. You became that legend during the events of the plot, when people were around...of the 'survived' variety.


While it could be argued that the citizens who lived in nearby buildings might have snuck a peek, I'd counterargue that they wouldn't report the one group caring enough to clear the streets of the vermin making it unsafe.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It actually could've affected Kirkwall, fighting all of those nighttime gangs.

Or if you're rooting out the Carta in Act 1, this could've also had an effect on Kirkwall. Or killing the Carta hounding the last Harrowmont.

These "random street fights" could definitely have impacted the game.

True. It could have been fleshed out so much more. I also thought that Hawke opposing the politically powerful Magistrate Vanard by killing his serial killer son would have had some impact in Kirkwall, especially from the Alienage. Wouldn't the elves turn to Hawke and view them as a good person - if not a hero, considering he has stood up for them against one of the most powerful humans in the city-state? Given how elven women can be adbucted right out of the Denerim Alienage in broad daylight, with no one giving a damn, I would've thought that having a human willing to go up against one of his own for the elves would have some impact. Perhaps even having elven aid during the Qunari uprising.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

True. It could have been fleshed out so much more. I also thought that Hawke opposing the politically powerful Magistrate Vanard by killing his serial killer son would have had some impact in Kirkwall, especially from the Alienage. Wouldn't the elves turn to Hawke and view them as a good person - if not a hero, considering he has stood up for them against one of the most powerful humans in the city-state? Given how elven women can be adbucted right out of the Denerim Alienage in broad daylight, with no one giving a damn, I would've thought that having a human willing to go up against one of his own for the elves would have some impact. Perhaps even having elven aid during the Qunari uprising.

Those are exactly the same thoughts I've echoed numerous times on threads in the past.

The potential was certainly there for DAII. But it never followed through. It's basically the Sparknotes version, what we got.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

I do not agree with you first statement, Jack. You have decided to become a mage or another class. And maybe even specialized to become a blood mage. You have decided to support the mages or the templars. The citizens can see you fight and thus know what class you have and which side you have chosen. As a mage you even carry a staff and wear a robe and a fitting hat. You are supposed to be or become a legend. That can only happen when you are being watched by the citizens. And thus it should have impact in a random street fight.

Pfft. It was random filler combat at a time the street was empty of the aforementioned citizens. You didn't decide to be attacked there. Your only decision was to not let them kill you. The only witnesses didnt survive the encounter. You became that legend during the events of the plot, when people were around...of the 'survived' variety.


While it could be argued that the citizens who lived in nearby buildings might have snuck a peek, I'd counterargue that they wouldn't report the one group caring enough to clear the streets of the vermin making it unsafe.

Whatever the rationalization, it doesn't compute to me. When you start the game you are a nobody. Yet, if you are a mage you're not hunted down by templars. Other mages are hunted down, even if they live outside the city's walls. Later in the game it makes sense, because you are under the protection of Meredith or at least doing quests for her. Like I mentioned earlier, it is also strange that merchants specialized in mage and blood mage gear can do their job openly. The whole thing sounds like the cheap way out: Let's hope the players do not notice it.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

thats1evildude wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

That is irrelevant. When I am promised that my decisions would "shape the world" then I like to see that in action. There is no need to defend BW. They do not deserve that after all the promises.

I don't share your feelings. I believe I have had a significant impact on my own world, and I don't see why apathetic citizenry — a completely separate issue in my mind — detracts from that.

Feelings don't have anything to do with it. Apathetic citizenry can never be defended when your decisions are supposed to shape the world. If shaping the world is about the impact of your decisions then that should also reflect on the citizens - who are obviously taking up a large part in that local world. If mages are being hunted down, even those outside the city walls, then citizens selling stuff to blood mages openly should make customers suspicious. Is it safe to buy from them? If you just came from a fight in which you used blood magic, a specialization you decided to take up, then it makes no sense that you have to tell that you are a mage. If the blood magic wasn't enough the silly hat and the staff, which you decided to wear, should give it away to them. If mages, a class you decided to take, are hunted down you expect that you are no exception and people turning you in should be a regular event. Or maybe get a response like: "If you value your life then get rid of the robe, hat and staff." Or buying mage gear from a merchant a few steps away from Meredith's office could be a trap. The Formari herbalist Solivitus selling lirium at the Gallows certainly doesn't make any sense there. How hard is that to grasp? In that light you are right: Apathy is best term to describe their behavior.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 18 avril 2012 - 11:17 .

[sylvanaerie]

Meredith is fully aware of Hawke's magic (She mentions she will overlook his/her use of it during Act 2's final battles), and then later "you were never part of this Circle and I tolerated that." she says when Hawke confronts her at the end of act 3.

Since no mention is made of that, even if you say stuff to Cullen/Keran etc in convos in Act 1, I am going to assume no one knew about Hawke's magely abilities prior to Act 2's finale. And Bethany is turned in at the end of Act 1 if she doesn't go Grey Warden.  And then Hawke is Champion of Kirkwall, Meredith would have a much harder time locking him/her up then.

As for Anders and Merrill. I am unsure why the "healer" isn't accosted more in the game, considering his 'in your face' lack of discretion what with having a healing clinic out in the open, but tend to just ignore it, since Anders is forced on the player regardless. Merrill will actually comment about the templars in a dialogue with her that she doesn't use magic around others and to the templars she's "just another elf in the Alienage".

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 19 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[gonzalez.melissa53]

I think it's cause Verric and Izzy have been telling everyone that sniches get stiches... Anders can be a petty @Itch with that needle too!

Modifié par gonzalez.melissa53, 19 avril 2012 - 03:06 .

[prizm123]

Varric actually says something to that effect, where he mentions paying people off to look the other way so as to not bother Anders

[LobselVith8]

GavrielKay wrote...

Given DA2 was released, you know, after, DA:O, they had an opportunity to improve those things that DA:O didn't do perfectly. As far as I'm concerned, this renders moot all arguments about how it shouldn't matter that DA2 didn't do something that DA:O didn't do either.

I agree. The developers already said that they chose to only have a human protagonist to focus more on the character's story, but so much is ignored: Hawke being the scion of a known apostate, the fact that no templars are suspicious that Hawke and his (or her) sibling are apostates like their father was, no templars investigating the existance of two apostates who are associates of Hawke, the extreme segregation between story and gameplay that makes it feel like the two are taking place in two different universes, and Meredith not doing anything about an apostate Hawke when she randomly killed three mages if Hawke forces the Starkhaven mages to go to the Circle of Kirkwall.

GavrielKay wrote...

The fact is that being a mage in Kirkwall should be an issue. The Templars have more power in Kirkwall than almost anywhere else. They are presented as hard-liners that should not ignore an apostate running about the city. It's even a little iffy that they ignore a rich apostate, or a Champion apostate later in the game.

Considering that even Arl Eamon had to give up his son Connor to the Circle of Ferelden, I think you're right.

GavrielKay wrote...

A famous apostate running about saving the city ought to be considered a major thorn in the Chantry's side. They make a point of preaching that mages are dangerous and can't be trusted. Having a very powerful mage in such an influential role should make it more likely that Meredith would come after Hawke, not less. After all, once Hawke is in custody, they can make up any story they want to tell the populace.

I can see the announcement now... "Hawke has had a religious experience and now realizes that she wishes to spend the rest of her life in seclusion meditating on the wisdom of Andraste."

The story ignores Hawke's status as an apostate throughout the narrative, and it's only seldomly addressed (and even then it causes problems, such as when Carver talks about Hawke being an apostate right in front of a templar) - we see this happen with Sebastian, who never deals with the idea of Hawke being an illegal mage, despite the fact that the Prince of Starkhaven considers telling the templars about Anders and Merrill in a discussion with Fenris. Wouldn't he have an issue with Hawke being an apostate? Wouldn't he want an illegal mage Hawke to go to the Chantry controlled Circle in the same way that he contemplates telling the templars about Merrill and Anders?

It's disappointing that such an unrealistic approach was taken for an apostate Hawke. Meredith is already willing to take power and prevent the election of a new Viscount, so why would she care about what the nobles would think when it comes to one single person? Hawke's status protecting Merrill and Anders is another issue, especially since Merrill is a maleficar by virtue of being a Dalish mage who uses magic that wasn't taught by one of the Circles of Magi.

[Lazy Jer]

Haven't read the entire thread, so this is a response to the original post.  As I see it there are four reasons.

(1)  The programers of the game either didn't think of it or think it was important enough to really worry about.;

(2)  The residents see these people casting fireballs at local thugs and think "Hey...their bumping off the local thugs that the Templars don't care about and the city guard are too underfunded and understaffed to be able to take care of.  I'm gonna say something?  Where do they live I'll give them a fruit basket.";

(3) The residents see these people casting fireballs at local thugs and think "I don't want fireballs cast at me.  I don't have the requisite insurance on my hovel." and decided not to get involved.; or

(4) The residents to see anything, they're sleeping peacefully, are perhaps woken up by the noise and either scream "Shut up!" from their bed or they wake up enough to make sure their own home isn't on fire, shrug and go back to sleep.

Frankly I think it's (1), but I wish it was (2) because it involves fruit baskets.  I can imagine it now.  Anders wakes up, there's like half a dozen fruit baskets on his doorstep, he thinks they're poisoned and rather then eating them gives them to templars he sees wandering around, he talks to Merrill about it and she says "Yeah I got some.  They were delicious."  Anders looks at a bunch of happy templars walking around saying "Wow...I didn't think I'd like kiwi but it's actually pretty tasty."  Then Anders writes a manifesto, because it's what Anders does when he gets in a grumpy mood.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Yes, I've had that discussion, and as I recall, he doesn't notice Shale until you specifically point her out to him. Because the giant talking statue standing behind me was so hard to spot.

At least he reacts to it, as opposed to Cullen who says he's "seen the work of mages" and doesn't even notice a Mage Hawke in front of him during the quest involving Wilmod.

You -- general "you" here -- can argue DAO was bad in its own right. That's fine. I acknowledged that. But what you can't say -- again, general 'you' -- is that DAII was anywhere near as well done as DAO.

DAO obviously handled it better, even if it was still somewhat bad. DAII was worse. Not equal and obviously not better. Worse.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You -- general "you" here -- can argue DAO was bad in its own right. That's fine. I acknowledged that. But what you can't say -- again, general 'you' -- is that DAII was anywhere near as well done as DAO.

I can, because NPCs did a far better job of reacting to who was in your party than DA2.

You cite a few token examples of an NPC in Orzammar "suddenly" noticing Shale, and the yokels in Redcliffe reacting to your status as a mage. Big whoop. Compare that to all the quests that change in DA2 based on your party make-up, or how NPCs will react differently to Hawke based on what act he is in and who is with him.

There still needs to be more recognition of the main character's class and specializations. And NPCs should be more reactive to fights. But we need to stop getting hung up on framing this as a problem that was specific to the sequel.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You -- general "you" here -- can argue DAO was bad in its own right. That's fine. I acknowledged that. But what you can't say -- again, general 'you' -- is that DAII was anywhere near as well done as DAO.

I can, because NPCs did a far better job of reacting to who was in your party than DA2.

I respectfully disagree. Cullen, Keenan, and Sebastian never seem to realize that Hawke is an apostate, while Ser Bryant, Mother Hannah, and Murdock can directly address that the protagonist is a mage. Mother Hannah, Ser Perth, and people from the town of Lothering and Orzammar can comment on the protagonist being elven as well. It can even be addressed at the Landsmeet that the protagonist is elven, as well as among some of the Dalish.

As Ethereal pointed out, the Shaperate and Caridin can recognize Shale. Also, Wynne can address that Morrigan is an "apostate" during the initial conversations with The Warden, the Dalish can comment on Sten being Qunari, and Cullen points out that he views the dwarven warrior Oghren as a "heathen."

thats1evildude wrote...

You cite a few token examples of an NPC in Orzammar "suddenly" noticing Shale, and the yokels in Redcliffe reacting to your status as a mage. Big whoop. Compare that to all the quests that change in DA2 based on your party make-up, or how NPCs will react differently to Hawke based on what act he is in and who is with him.

"A Broken Circle" has different scenerios for different companions. Shale can die if The Warden brings her along, and opposes Caridin's attempts to destroy the Anvil. Wynne can die if The Warden supports Morrigan's view on the mages. Wynne and Leliana can perish if The Warden destroys the ashes in front of them. Oghren can provide commentary on how lyrium is effecting the ruins where the ashes are being kept, contrary to Leliana's assumptions about the Maker and the Prophet Andraste. There are different outcomes for different companions that transpire in Origins.

In Dragon Age II, Decimus assumes that an apostate Hawke, the Dalish Merrill, the Tevinter elf Fenris with lyrium tattoos, the pantsless Isabela, and the bare-chested Varric are templars. We heard lines like Thrask commenting on Merrill being Dalish and wondering if she knew Feynriel's mother, but nothing that was revolutionary from what Origins established.

thats1evildude wrote...

There still needs to be more recognition of the main character's class and specializations. And NPCs should be more reactive to fights. But we need to stop getting hung up on framing this as a problem that was specific to the sequel.

The problem is that some of us think that Dragon Age II should have improved from what Origins accomplished, and the segregation between story and gameplay in a narrative where a possible apostate Hawke with apostate companions in the center of templar power over eastern Thedas is troublesome.

[tmk]

The problem is that it's hard to make the sequel better than the original when you don't have nearly as much time and budget (most of which seems to have gone into marketing).

And various voiceovers really are one of the most expensive aspects of production, both because of VA pay and the costs of the studios themselves (you might be surprised how much those charge per hour)

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I respectfully disagree. Cullen, Keenan, and Sebastian never seem to realize that Hawke is an apostate, while Ser Bryant, Mother Hannah, and Murdock can directly address that the protagonist is a mage.

Cullen doesn't, and that is a failing of his character. Keenan is not in a position to dispute the matter, and as far as I can tell it doesn't really matter to Sebastian.

And on the flip side, we have Fenris, Wesley Vallen, Meeran/Athenril, Anders and Meredith herself will acknowledge Hawke's status as a mage. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

"A Broken Circle" has different scenerios for different companions. Shale can die if The Warden brings her along, and opposes Caridin's attempts to destroy the Anvil. Wynne can die if The Warden supports Morrigan's view on the mages. Wynne and Leliana can perish if The Warden destroys the ashes in front of them. Oghren can provide commentary on how lyrium is effecting the ruins where the ashes are being kept, contrary to Leliana's assumptions about the Maker and the Prophet Andraste. There are different outcomes for different companions that transpire in Origins.

The main quests Wayward Son, Shepherding Wolves, Enemies Among Us, Offered and Lost, All that Remains, Demands of the Qun and the entire ending are all greatly influenced by who you've forged friendships and rivalries with. Hell, Wayward Son can change about five different ways depending on who's with you.

LobselVith8 wrote...

People from the town of Lothering and Orzammar can comment on the protagonist being elven as well. It can even be addressed at the Landsmeet that the protagonist is elven, as well as among some of the Dalish.

And virtually everyone recognizes Hawke is a human, and dialogue will also change based on her gender.

LobselVith8 wrote...

In Dragon Age II, Decimus assumes that an apostate Hawke, the Dalish Merrill, the Tevinter elf Fenris with lyrium tattoos, the pantsless Isabela, and the bare-chested Varric are templars.

His initial comment is that the templars are here, but he then clarifies that he doesn't care who you are.

Again, this speaks to a fundamental difference to how you and I view that quest. You see Decimus as an oppressed mage who can't tell the difference between friend and foe because the writing staff dropped the ball on his characterization. I see a corrupt maleficar who's so far gone that he doesn't care about the distinction.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 avril 2012 - 11:16 .

[GavrielKay]

thats1evildude wrote...
Again, this speaks to a fundamental difference to how you and I view that quest. You see Decimus as an oppressed mage who can't tell the difference between friend and foe because the writing staff dropped the ball on his characterization. I see a corrupt maleficar who's so far gone that he doesn't care about the distinction.

I always saw Decimus as just another stop on the plot railroad meant to give us some not very well integrated scenes with Grace.  The writers tried to create a gray area by making both sides insane rather than making both sides have reasonable points.

[thats1evildude]

GavrielKay wrote...

The writers tried to create a gray area by making both sides insane rather than making both sides have reasonable points.

Extremists are always found in any ideological dispute. And reasonable points are expressed during the game; they're simply brushed aside, because the only possible resolution to the mage/templar dispute was conflict.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 20 avril 2012 - 03:23 .

[GavrielKay]

thats1evildude wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

The writers tried to create a gray area by making both sides insane rather than making both sides have reasonable points.

Extremists are always found in any ideological dispute. And reasonable points are expressed during the game; they're simply brushed aside, because the only possible resolution to the mage/templar dispute was conflict.

I guess I was just disappointed that almost everyone seems to have been crazy, companions and all.  I mean, even Orsino who seemed reasonable through most of the game was portrayed as a collaborator in the end.

I would rather have seen some proof of the whole involuntary possession claim and some caring Templars who really wanted to protect their charges.  Instead we got dogma and wackos.  Oh well.

[Dakota Strider]

Once you get on this DA2 trainride, there is nothing that is going to interupt your ride. Game logic, previous DA lore, physics, common sense...not even dragons. You could be playing Hawke as a blood mage, and practicing in the Gallows, and the Templars would ignore you.