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So, let's guess: Which weapon gets nerfed today?


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#126
Cyonan

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SinerAthin wrote...

"Viable" is on the borderline of "Possible" in this case, and both are far different from "Balanced".

Being balanced means that all weapons are equally efficient, that each weapons have strenghts to compensate for its drawbacks.

Like the Claymore. It weights a tonne, it's got a horrible rate of fire, but it kills anything in just one shot.

THAT'S a decent weapon.

Black Widow: Weighs a tonne, but got awesome destructive powers.


Now compare that to an Assault Rifle:

Medium weight but far inferior damage, especially vs armor, and the fact that you can't survive outside of cover on the higher difficulties coupled with its slow DPS makes it vastly inferior to the single shot weapons

Then you can pick a pistol. It's lighter than an Assault Rifle, AND it is more efficient damage wise, including vs armor.

Diversity means that you can pick the weapon you want without nerfing yourself. That the only thing you need to change is your playstyle, but you will still remain as powerful as with any other weapon due to a balance between the weapons strenghts and its weaknesses.


Well, viable simply means it can be done with it. Every gun in this game can be used on any class to beat Gold, thus every gun is viable.

You are right that not every gun is equally efficient. A team of Soldiers using all Claymores would clear it faster than one using all GPRs.

However, a lot of guns are also better than people give them credit for. The Sniper Rifles are considered to be so overpowered because of what an Infiltrator can do with them. That is not the Widow's fault, that is the fault of TC/Headshot damage modifier stacking. My Human Soldier with my Mattock can kill a Prime on gold faster than my Krogan Sentinel with my Widow.

I would argue that Soldiers need a buff to be able to use weapons as effectively and efficiently as Infiltrators can. The only actual weapons that need buffing are most of the full auto ones, especially vs armour.

#127
Atheosis

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So much whining in this thread...

Modifié par Atheosis, 17 avril 2012 - 07:44 .


#128
TSCIGAR

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Siner, I believe the stat you're pulling is actually "1% of completed matches are gold" which is very different than "1% of gold matches are completed." If 10% of matches are on Gold, then that's a 10% completion rate. I also think the stat is old, but I don't know that. Anyone have a source for current data?

Beyond all that, though, there are a lot of variables to consider. How many Gold teams purposefully wipe after completing the objective in wave 10? How many games have a random new player that doesn't realize the default search settings are all random? How many players aren't just not good at Gold, but actually bad at it? You can't just throw out a stat like that with no context. That's how statistics get abused and faulty decisions are made.

I'm telling you I am a decent Gold player. I don't think I could solo Gold normally (though I've never tried- I'm playing MP to play with other players). But I am pretty sure I could solo Gold with my GI and a GPS, and on a team I'm certainly a walking death machine. I think the weapon compensates too much for lack of skill, so I feel it's more powerful than it really should be. It's an opinion, and given my criteria and expectations of a game, I believe it to be a fairly well reasoned and valid one. That doesn't mean it's the only valid one, and a good balancing team will mak an effort to consider all those opinions and playstyles when making their decisions.

I want the game to be harder for a decent team to complete. If I'm in a team that has complementary classes of any flavor and the players know how to use them, then we'll usually beat Gold. That's too easy in my opinion. Of course, I also think most of the weapons are viable on Gold, because I have seen skilled players perform well with them (and sometimes do it myself- my soldier with a much maligned falcon can do wonders, as long as the ammo I choose to bring isn't a relative waste on the enemy, like cryo against geth or disruptor against reapers. Find it's best to go incendiary on random/random).

Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

#129
YuenglingDragon

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Atheosis wrote...

So much whining in this post...

Fixed that for you.  You're very welcome.

#130
Father Alvito

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Cyonan wrote...

Well, viable simply means it can be done with it. Every gun in this game can be used on any class to beat Gold, thus every gun is viable.


That's a poor definition of viability since clear time matters.  Sure, you can kill an Atlas in Gold with however many tens of thousands of shots it takes from a GPR, but that doesn't make it viable once you compare it to alternatives.

I'd argue that viability implies a certain percentage of the clear time to be expected from strictly optimal.  

#131
YuenglingDragon

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I want the game to be harder for a decent team to complete. If I'm in a team that has complementary classes of any flavor and the players know how to use them, then we'll usually beat Gold. That's too easy in my opinion. Of course, I also think most of the weapons are viable on Gold, because I have seen skilled players perform well with them (and sometimes do it myself- my soldier with a much maligned falcon can do wonders, as long as the ammo I choose to bring isn't a relative waste on the enemy, like cryo against geth or disruptor against reapers. Find it's best to go incendiary on random/random).

I think what you really want is a Platinum Difficulty, not a nerf bat.  A group of decent folks at the level cap should be able to reliably beat Gold any map, any enemy.  They should be challenged greatly and fail frequently on a new, yet harder difficulty.

Right now, a team of the "good" classes will tear through White/Geth/Gold.  A group of the "bad" classes will have a much lower win percentage, with the percentage increasing the more "good" classes are mixed in.  But something like Reapers at Glacier or Reactor?  I donm't want your soldier no matter what level you gun is.  It's not a substitute for biotics and tech powers.  That's how you know guns and the classes that need them are underpowered.

#132
Roninraver

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Father Alvito wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Well, viable simply means it can be done with it. Every gun in this game can be used on any class to beat Gold, thus every gun is viable.


That's a poor definition of viability since clear time matters.  Sure, you can kill an Atlas in Gold with however many tens of thousands of shots it takes from a GPR, but that doesn't make it viable once you compare it to alternatives.

I'd argue that viability implies a certain percentage of the clear time to be expected from strictly optimal.  



It's not a poor definition, it's just the definition.  Period.


The word you are looking for is competitive.

See how that works?  Different words meaning different things?

Modifié par Roninraver, 17 avril 2012 - 07:57 .


#133
Cyonan

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Father Alvito wrote...

That's a poor definition of viability since clear time matters. Sure, you can kill an Atlas in Gold with however many tens of thousands of shots it takes from a GPR, but that doesn't make it viable once you compare it to alternatives.

I'd argue that viability implies a certain percentage of the clear time to be expected from strictly optimal.


The thing is that I didn't define viable, the english language did that =P

Viable actually just means that it can be used to get the job done.

Efficiency is different from viability. Everything is currently viable, everything is not currently equally efficient.

#134
Father Alvito

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Roninraver wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Well, viable simply means it can be done with it. Every gun in this game can be used on any class to beat Gold, thus every gun is viable.


That's a poor definition of viability since clear time matters.  Sure, you can kill an Atlas in Gold with however many tens of thousands of shots it takes from a GPR, but that doesn't make it viable once you compare it to alternatives.

I'd argue that viability implies a certain percentage of the clear time to be expected from strictly optimal.  



It's not a poor definition, it's just the defintion.  Period.


The word you are looking for is competitive.

See how that works?  Different words meaning different things?


Did you know that scientists fight over operational definitions of concepts all the time?

Just because you could clear Gold with a Salarian wielding a salami and a ton of patience doesn't make the approach viable in a multiplayer game.  Your teammates (should) have the right to expect a certain level of contribution from you.

The English language has very little to do with operational definitions of concepts.  Just saying.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 17 avril 2012 - 07:58 .


#135
Elecbender

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I am still shocked that the GPS hasn't bit the bullet.

#136
Rosalina is my BabyCakes

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Better start overusing my gps before something bad happens :(

#137
Atheosis

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Father Alvito wrote...


The English language has very little to do with operational definitions of concepts.  Just saying.


Say what? :huh:

#138
Schneidend

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GPS will probably see a nerf at some point. It's far too easy to use for the kind of huge damage it deals.

What needs a nerf is the Carnifex/Paladin. It's a pistol, not a sniper rifle.

All non-pistol weapons need to be buffed to be vaguely on par with power spam. It's the only way Soldiers can be true competitors.

#139
Father Alvito

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Atheosis wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...


The English language has very little to do with operational definitions of concepts.  Just saying.


Say what? :huh:


Try doing research some time.  Explain to me how a conflict with 999 deaths is not a war, but one with 1000 is, using only the English language as your arbiter for how you arrive at this conclusion.  You can't.

Modifié par Father Alvito, 17 avril 2012 - 08:05 .


#140
Elecbender

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Schneidend wrote...

GPS will probably see a nerf at some point. It's far too easy to use for the kind of huge damage it deals.

What needs a nerf is the Carnifex/Paladin. It's a pistol, not a sniper rifle.

All non-pistol weapons need to be buffed to be vaguely on par with power spam. It's the only way Soldiers can be true competitors.


coughArcPistolcough

#141
Cyonan

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Schneidend wrote...

GPS will probably see a nerf at some point. It's far too easy to use for the kind of huge damage it deals.

What needs a nerf is the Carnifex/Paladin. It's a pistol, not a sniper rifle.

All non-pistol weapons need to be buffed to be vaguely on par with power spam. It's the only way Soldiers can be true competitors.


If you buff all weapons to be on par with power spam, you would just see power spammers bringing those weapons in addition to their power spamming. It happened already with the Falcon pre-nerf which was a moderately heavy rifle.

They need to just buff Soldiers so they can use weapons as effectively as Infiltrators can, if not more so since they are supposed to be the masters of weaponry.

#142
samb

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 For the sake of balance any decent gun out now will be nerfed. This is for your own good.  If you are doing well and having fun then BW is doing something wrong. 

#143
cuzIMgood

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Hopefully the Carnifex, Black Widow, Geth Plasma Shotgun, and Valiant.

I would like to see buffs for the Arc Pistol, Incisor, Wraith, Saber, and Viper.

Modifié par cuzIMgood, 17 avril 2012 - 08:10 .


#144
Roninraver

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Father Alvito wrote...

Roninraver wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Well, viable simply means it can be done with it. Every gun in this game can be used on any class to beat Gold, thus every gun is viable.


That's a poor definition of viability since clear time matters.  Sure, you can kill an Atlas in Gold with however many tens of thousands of shots it takes from a GPR, but that doesn't make it viable once you compare it to alternatives.

I'd argue that viability implies a certain percentage of the clear time to be expected from strictly optimal.  



It's not a poor definition, it's just the defintion.  Period.


The word you are looking for is competitive.

See how that works?  Different words meaning different things?


Did you know that scientists fight over operational definitions of concepts all the time?

Just because you could clear Gold with a Salarian wielding a salami and a ton of patience doesn't make the approach viable in a multiplayer game.  Your teammates (should) have the right to expect a certain level of contribution from you.

The English language has very little to do with operational definitions of concepts.  Just saying.



Actually, it does.  When you're not working in the sciences.


I could say "I have a theory about xyz" and it has a meaning in informal language, like the kind used on a message board about a videogame.

It would make less sense for me to say "I have a theory" when speaking about an observed natural phenomena to a scientific body.  They would say "You mean hypothesis, right?"  Or maybe conjecture.



You aren't addressing a scientific body.  You aren't doing science.  You are on a videogame message board, talking about a videogame.  Therefore, common English usage is the standard.

Viable means possible.  Doable.  Workable.

It does not mean competitive.  Or efficient.  Or effective.


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#145
Elecbender

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samb wrote...

 For the sake of balance any decent gun out now will be nerfed. This is for your own good.  If you are doing well and having fun then BW is doing something wrong. 


I have fun with the Kishock on Gold.  That gun is nowhere near close to "nerf-worthy".  3-shotting Banshees never gets old.

#146
Schneidend

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Cyonan wrote...
If you buff all weapons to be on par with power spam, you would just see power spammers bringing those weapons in addition to their power spamming. It happened already with the Falcon pre-nerf which was a moderately heavy rifle.

They need to just buff Soldiers so they can use weapons as effectively as Infiltrators can, if not more so since they are supposed to be the masters of weaponry.


Nerf the base weight capacity values of the Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel into the ground where they belong.

#147
heybigmoney

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more buffs for weapons. Nerf for geth melee.

#148
Atheosis

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Father Alvito wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Father Alvito wrote...


The English language has very little to do with operational definitions of concepts.  Just saying.


Say what? :huh:


Try doing research some time.  Explain to me how a conflict with 999 deaths is not a war, but one with 1000 is, using only the English language as your arbiter for how you arrive at this conclusion.  You can't.


All definitions, no matter how arbitrary, still rely on language to function (in this case English).  You said the English language had very little to do with operational definitions, when the truth is no type of definition can even exist without language.

#149
stribies

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Geth pulse rifle and avenger will be nerfed today to completely stop people from using them.

#150
Sable Dove

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No weapons should be nerfed. It's usually better to buff than to nerf. Though not always. Reapers could use a nerf.

Pretty much all the assault rifles need buffing. Personally, I'd prefer an anti-bug and unlock-system-improvement patch though.