50 réponses à ce sujet

[Tybo]

Actually, according to your formula
[Damage Suffered] = [Base Damage] * 0.75 * (1 - [Total DR] / 100) + [Base Damage] * 0.25

You would need the total DR to be 133% to reach 0 damage taken, because the damage reduction only affects 75% of the base damage.

[Egermano]

tyhw wrote...

Actually, according to your formula
[Damage Suffered] = [Base Damage] * 0.75 * (1 - [Total DR] / 100) + [Base Damage] * 0.25

You would need the total DR to be 133% to reach 0 damage taken, because the damage reduction only affects 75% of the base damage.

You're right. Took some screenshots with a Batarian against Geth Rocket Trooper to get the values.

When I saw that post about the Batarian under Biotic Sphere I immediately thought that heavy melee DR could be 70%, as that would total a convenient 100% Total DR with maxed out Blade Armor. I was correct, see below So DR specced Batarians under maxed out Biotic Sphere have 140% Total DR while doing heavy melee. We know from that thread they don't get damaged at all, and that means there is no cap for DR. Now it would be really nice to see if there is a check for negative damage - do they get healed under BS if they get damaged while doing heavy melee?

Here are my Batarian tests. Unmitigated and Heavy Melee DR percentage are highlighted to emphasize that those are estimated values used to calculate the rest. Batarian's maxed out Shield strength is 1238.

Modifié par Egermano, 21 avril 2012 - 10:32 .

[Egermano]

I realized from another thread that cover is simple additional DR to our DR pool so I did some tests with rocket troopers again. It was easy to determine, cover DR is constant 40%. Of course, there is the benefit of breaking line of sight, and blocking shots totally, but even if line of sight is clear, we get the cover DR as long as we are facing the covering object, no matter where our enemies are. Turn your camera away, and you loose cover DR - and if you're behind chesthide wall, you'll probably loose the line of sight block too. So it's generally not a good idea to stare away from your cover for a long time. I know that this is not rocket science, experienced players should know this already, but still, here are two screenshots for proof. My Turian Sentinel is standing in cover, with a Geth Rocket Trooper firing from behind (>.<). The only difference between the screenshots is in the viewpoint, my Turian did not move. Cover DR was active despite evident clear line of sight on first screenshot, but I got full damage from the rocket when I wasn't facing the covering wall on the second.



During my tests I acquired a fair amount of data now, and I keep getting different results for rocket damage on different characters. First I thought it was rounding or reading the graphics error, which is unavoidable, but some errors are too big to be explained by that. I keep getting errors bigger than 6 pixels, when the worst case scenario of a rounding error would be 4 pixels by my calculations (and the best case is 0.5, rounding can't get better than that obviously). Whatever is in works here, it's hard to be distinguished from the error, so a correct Base Damage value is needed. I gave in and consulted coalesced.bin to get Rocket Trooper's base damage. The base damage of the rocket is 425. Since there are no changes in the balancing thread I assume that this is still correct. Damage scale on bronze is -0.25 to 0.25, there is a variable called NoCoverDamageBonus at 0.4, and CoverDamageReduction at 0.9. I couldn't find any other data for monster damage, so this is what I worked with. 425 upscaled with 0.25 is 531.5. This should be the Base Damage in cover. Outside of cover the 0.4 bonus should apply, though I'm not sure how at this moment, so I'll present only in-cover rocket hit results.



This shows quite clearly that damage suffered depends on total shield points, the more total shield points we have, the less damage we suffer (although this is almost unnoticeable in normal gameplay). Out of curiosity I did a double rocket test (getting another rocket hit before shield regen starts). A bit hard to get two rocket hits and nothing else, but I managed to get screenshots on a cyclonic modulatored Krogan (2600 total shield points). The second hit was 7.6% larger than the first one! 777.64 vs 722.66 damage (these were unmitigated shots, no cover DR). 777 is the biggest rocket damage I suffered on Bronze yet, so this can mean that current shield/health standing effects final damage suffered in addition to everything else.

If this is true designers want us to duck back to cover as soon as we get damaged. Not only our shields start to regen faster if our shields are only partially damaged, but the damage is lower on full shields too.

[Kenaras]

Fantastic thread. It never would have occurred to me that damage taken increases with less shields.

I had already noticed that my Krogan Sentinel could take a Gold Nemesis shot and still have shields remaining. (40% from Tech Armor, 40% from cover, and 1600 shields.) Given the information in this thread, an Asari Justicar should be able to make any class with innate damage reduction nearly immortal - 40% from cover, 40% from bubble, 30%-40% for armor powers = 110% to 120% damage reduction.

Edit: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what your formula really says?

Real_DR = 0.75 * Shown_DR

Modifié par Kenaras, 30 avril 2012 - 10:37 .

[Titus Thongger]

this looks more complex than my dissertation lol.

very nice work

[Egermano]

Kenaras wrote...

Fantastic thread. It never would have occurred to me that damage taken increases with less shields.

I had already noticed that my Krogan Sentinel could take a Gold Nemesis shot and still have shields remaining. (40% from Tech Armor, 40% from cover, and 1600 shields.) Given the information in this thread, an Asari Justicar should be able to make any class with innate damage reduction nearly immortal - 40% from cover, 40% from bubble, 30%-40% for armor powers = 110% to 120% damage reduction.

Yeah, Asari Justicar is near the immortal treshold (Bubble 40%+Reave 40%+Cover 40%=120%, tested, it works)  BUT all my measurings are on full barrier. I did more double rocket tests, and confirmed that the second rocket does more damage than the first. I still need more data to get an updated formula. All I can say for now is that the formula works only on full barrier/shield, and that total DR is even lower on damaged barrier/shield.

To fully use AJ DR get shield regen speed evolution on Fitness and the shield regen armor equipment, and keep your barrier full. Tanking stuff without barrier regen downtime is not possible. Less damage on barrier means a lot shorter downtime though, so high DR is not useless.

Edit: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what your formula really says?

Real_DR = 0.75 * Shown_DR

Yes, but I obviously hate simple things
There's no magic

I work in Excel, and math is not my profession, so I didn't bother to simplify the formula. Here it is:

[Damage Suffered] = [Base Damage] * (1 - 0.75 * [Total DR])

Again, I emphasize, it's only accurate on full shields and if you take an unmitigated shot on same total shield points as Base Damage. I'll try to get the full damage model, so we can use the damage values from coalesced.bin to calculate every damage, but I don't guarantee that I'll get there ever. Someone familiar with the unreal engine (and or BlackICE) could help a lot

Modifié par Egermano, 30 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[Kenaras]

I'm wondering whether at some point in development and testing, BioWare decided that damage reduction was too powerful. Rather than tweak the individual numbers, they just applied a small blanket nerf to all damage reduction. The current model is extremely unintuitive; it would make far more sense to tweak the numbers in the various powers and accomplish the same thing. (For example, "Damage Reduction: 25%" would become "Damage Reduction: 18.75%"; "increase damage protection by an additional 10%" would become "increase damage protection by an additional 7.5%".)

With the way shield gating works, any information on the damage model can be huge help to players in optimizing their builds.

[Shampoohorn]

Great post. Math is fun. Deserves a bump.

[Serge_THE_GREAT]

Apologizes for asking like this instead of reading all of the material, but, are you also saying that taking cover behind a wall actually increases your damage reduction?

[Shampoohorn]

Serge_THE_GREAT wrote...

Apologizes for asking like this instead of reading all of the material, but, are you also saying that taking cover behind a wall actually increases your damage reduction?

Yes, that's what the data shows -- even if the mob targeting you is on the same side of the cover as you.  I.e. has a clean shot at you.

[Serge_THE_GREAT]

Shampoohorn wrote...

Serge_THE_GREAT wrote...

Apologizes for asking like this instead of reading all of the material, but, are you also saying that taking cover behind a wall actually increases your damage reduction?

Yes, that's what the data shows -- even if the mob targeting you is on the same side of the cover as you.  I.e. has a clean shot at you.

Oh wow, hah!  Thank you for the polite post.  I have personal reasons for not reading everything I see on forums.

[Shampoohorn]

Serge_THE_GREAT wrote...

Shampoohorn wrote...

Serge_THE_GREAT wrote...

Apologizes for asking like this instead of reading all of the material, but, are you also saying that taking cover behind a wall actually increases your damage reduction?

Yes, that's what the data shows -- even if the mob targeting you is on the same side of the cover as you.  I.e. has a clean shot at you.

Oh wow, hah!  Thank you for the polite post.  I have personal reasons for not reading everything I see on forums.

Ironically, TMI.

edit: Oh, and you're welcome. 

Modifié par Shampoohorn, 16 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[molecularman]

Awesome. Simply awesome. No wonder my justicar takes almost zero damage in cover

[Biotic_Warlock]

Wait...
So that's why bubble + reave + cover does not give immunity...?

Shows what use 80% DR is... (or 120% DR including cover bonus)

Modifié par Biotic_Warlock, 16 mai 2012 - 03:56 .

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

Very, very nice! Thanks for doing all the maths, got a few more tricks from this thread that might help immensely! Must read for all players!

[Koenig888]

Thanks to the OP. This is very informative.

[ThePowerOfHAT]

Wordlywisewiz wrote...

even with just 40 precent from barrier and 40 precent from the bubble throw down a geth turret and your almost invincible

I've done that.  Great way to hold an objective.  On Gold you can still go down pretty easily, but if you're in cover and have the bubble specialized for shield regeneration as well, people can get back into the fight very quickly.

[mybudgee]

Cover is therefore essential..

[BoomDynamite]

BUMP

[lionsol]

good job,man

[DESTRAUDO]

Awesome thread. Question though. Do justicar bubbles stack dr? Will multiple bubbles increase the dr effect overall or is there a flat ceiling of a bonus in dr you can get from a power? e.g. 4 overlapping bubbles = 160 dr or 40 dr.

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

Arise thread, Arise!

I remember reading somewhere that you get a default DR based either on how much shields of your total shields are left or the maximum number of shields you can have. Is this true?

[mrcanada]

Awesome work and great find. People like you make these forums a worthwhile place and this is very welcome information on something obscure that people rely on.

[Gaw_Damnit]

Very late to the game, but just wanted to say: awesome post.

[KiraTsukasa]

Gaw_Damnit wrote...

Very late to the game, but just wanted to say: awesome post.

You revived a FIVE MONTH DEAD thread just to say... THAT?