21 réponses à ce sujet

[Isichar]

First off, This is not a flame thread against Epler, Allan, Stanley or any other mod, as they have done nothing but a fantastic job. Specially from the DA team in here as alot of what I am saying is due to the fact you guys have actually treated us with respect. That been said lets get to the main point of this:


I keep hearing from bioware, its mods and official responses "yes, we are listening" but it seems like nothing comes from the mass effect team without first going through a chain of PR people. There is basically no fan/bioware (mass effect team) interaction other then the questions asked at an event like pax, which forces the question and answers to become very generalized the rare time they can be asked/answered.

I see mods like Allan take time to write long thought out responses, get flamed, and still respond to the fans with respect, which cant always be easy and I cant help but wonder why are the people who actually worked on the game not here discussing issues with their fans? Allan does not have to "agree" with us to respond to us, same could be said for an ME writer. Are they really just afraid we cant remain civil? At first i thought this but im really starting to doubt it.

Its sad to see those "passionate fans" take the time to write out long thought out and emotional threads to bioware and wonder if anyone who worked on the game even cares enough to actually read it let alone respond. And the funny part is when you see these "whiny children" and "flamers" actually show they capable of acting mature and discussing things when they are treated like people and not just statistics for bioware. Even the worse of the trolls here i've seen capable of carrying out an intelligent converstation when they want to.

This for me would show they care much more then having a bioware CEO i couldnt care less about tell us they are listening. And I dont believe I am the only one who feels this way. For all I know the ME team has not read a single word written on these forums, maybe bioware just has people who read the forums, take notes then give it to the team as a checklist of issues fans have to be knocked off. This does not mean they care about the fans, rather it comes off as quite the opposite.

So ill ask it again: is it right that the most contact we have with bioware is through mods unrelated to the actual production of mass effect? And why is it I see Allan who works on DA respond to me and others personally but the people who should care about the fan and their reactions are all but totally cut off from us? I think bioware underestimates the effect treating your fans like people rather then whiney children that didnt get what they want, has on us, or me at least.

Sad that I have more respect for the mods in these forums in regards to bioware then I do for the people who worked on the game I love and wish to discuss (sept maybe Weekes, mad respect for him).

Id go as far as to say id respect bioware/casey hudson more for actually trying to talk with its fans and understand their reaction rather then simply changing the ending to sate that reaction. But again this is all just my opinion.

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[John Epler]

I have a bottle of work scotch. Many of them, I imagine, do not.

More seriously, though - we can post without worrying about committing to anything, or inadvertently saying things we aren't supposed to about the ME series. I know slightly more about their plans than the people here, but only slightly - otherwise, I have my head in Dragon Age all day.

And, of course, I am a sucker for the community. I weathered the post-DA2 forum storm, living through Mangiraffedog. My skin is appropriately thick.

[John Epler]

Isichar wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I have a bottle of work scotch. Many of them, I imagine, do not.

More seriously, though - we can post without worrying about committing to anything, or inadvertently saying things we aren't supposed to about the ME series. I know slightly more about their plans than the people here, but only slightly - otherwise, I have my head in Dragon Age all day.

And, of course, I am a sucker for the community. I weathered the post-DA2 forum storm, living through Mangiraffedog. My skin is appropriately thick.

You guys really are great from a PR standpoint even if you are just here as fans for the reason that you dont have to commit. Do you think that if there was an ME team member here there would be serious issues of them giving out information they shouldnt, and or say something that could be used against bioware?

I think if they were really careful about what they said they could discuss things with the fans without saying something they shouldnt. Then again its hard when theres fans ready to tear apart your every word right?

Btw ty for joining us Epler

It can be very, very difficult to post when you're talking about a game or series you're involved in. I've been 'quoted' before in ways that took my words entirely out of context, requiring me to hop in later and clarify that 'no, that's not what I meant at all'. It's a little easier when you've been doing it for a while, of course - most of the people who're still on the DA forums know when I'm speaking as a BioWare employee, and when I'm just tossing around ideas as someone who's interested in design philosophies.

In the case of these forums, of course, people can still take my words out of context, but I make it very clear that I'm not involved with the Mass Effect franchise, and I try to avoid stating anything that could be taken as confirmation or denial of anything ME related. It's still a bit of a balancing act, but I've been doing this for about a year now - and it is something that gets easier over time.

[John Epler]

Eain wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I have a bottle of work scotch. Many of them, I imagine, do not.

More seriously, though - we can post without worrying about committing to anything, or inadvertently saying things we aren't supposed to about the ME series. I know slightly more about their plans than the people here, but only slightly - otherwise, I have my head in Dragon Age all day.

And, of course, I am a sucker for the community. I weathered the post-DA2 forum storm, living through Mangiraffedog. My skin is appropriately thick.

John, just curious. What does all this forum mayhem mean to you? Dedicated fans, or misplaced sense of entitlement? I know that there's really no right answer to this so I understand if you don't wanna say. It's just that lately I've been beginning to suspect that there's a real loss of respect on both sides of the Mass Effect fence. I think that some people in particular on the ME team are really just fed up with the whole situation and had been expecting a far more positive fan response than the one they received. People seem to have turned pretty bitter.

I think the general sentiment is still borne out of a dedicated fanbase. I've maintained, since the game shipped, that the majority of people who are looking for a different ending are civil and respectful, and speak because they care passionately about the product as a whole (as well as, in many cases, the company behind it). There are still numerous people on these forums who are able to articulate their sentiment regarding the ending in a rational and civil fashion, and I thank them for that - not to mention that I imagine it helps your case.

That being said, there's a vocal minority who started with vitriol and bile and continues down that path. That's their prerogative, certainly, but it's neither conducive to a forum environment where people are able to have discussions, nor does it help their cause. And, again, full credit to the community - I've seen many 'anti enders' taking them to task on their behaviour. And, to be fair - there are those who've taken this whole situation as an invitation to engage in flaming the 'anti-ending' crowd, because they feel they're immune to prosecution by the moderating staff. Which, if I'm not getting PMs, ends up being something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think, by and large, there's a little bit of lawlessness in the forums right now, and that's as a result of emotions running high on both sides of the fence (neither the pro-ending nor the anti-ending group has a lock on insults and vitriol). I'm hoping that clarifying that issues are most quickly resolved when reported directly to a Moderator will help. Beyond that, we'll see.

[John Epler]

Maria Caliban wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Mangiraffedog.

Thanks for the flashbacks John. I'll just leave this here.

You are literally the worst person on these forums right now.

[Allan Schumacher]

John Epler wrote...

I have a bottle of work scotch. Many of them, I imagine, do not.

More seriously, though - we can post without worrying about committing to anything, or inadvertently saying things we aren't supposed to about the ME series. I know slightly more about their plans than the people here, but only slightly - otherwise, I have my head in Dragon Age all day.

And, of course, I am a sucker for the community. I weathered the post-DA2 forum storm, living through Mangiraffedog. My skin is appropriately thick.

You were significantly braver than I!  I paid my dues in Tech Support forums and then paid my psychiatrist even more! >.>

Note:  Not technically a mod of this forum!

[John Epler]

EvilChani wrote...

You just hit on my only problem with the ending - that Anders' actions did not change even if you were romantically involved with him (or even just best friends). I understood why he did it, as insane as it was, but if nothing else, a romantic relationship with him should have given a different result (for a positive relationship, I mean). That is probably the only part I'd have changed about the ending of DA2. Otherwise, I liked the game. And replayed it several times. I would like to tell the DA team, however, to lay off with the killing of the main character's parents. You've done it two games in a row...it's becoming cliche. A bad cliche.  

In our next game, we'll kill off the main character and make you play their parents. Both of 'em. At the same time.

But we're getting a little off-topic here!

[John Epler]

EvilChani wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

And it would help if the PR bullcrap wasn't, "We're awesome, you're stupid if you don't like our art, but we suppose we'll do a clarification DLC for you sense you're too stupid to understand our greatness. After all, we never promised a game that fit well with the other two! Instead, we gave you art!!"  

And I think, unfortunately, this is part of the problem. None of this is intended by the statements that have been made. No one thinks that you're stupid if you don't like the ending. There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent, and here's the thing - everyone believes that they're a part of 'us', because who wants to be a part of 'them'? 

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant. And interacting with the community has, by and large, always been a voluntary thing. There's nowhere in my job description that says 'MUST INTERACT WITH FANS'. Lots of stuff about design-related responsibilities, but I do the community stuff because, hey, I enjoy it, and I apparently have a healthy masochistic streak 

Anyways. Most of you remain civil and polite, and I very much appreciate it. Keep it up!

[John Epler]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

The Mods realized their war assets weren't high enough to handle the situation, so they went for backup?

The mods are the same people they always were. There's no backup - I asked if I could chip in when I saw some trolling in the character forum pre-release, and I've stuck around because, well, I believe in a healthy community.

[John Epler]

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

[John Epler]

Blind2Society wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

John Epler wrote...
 There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant.

This is because there is a disconnect between the fan base and the devs which can be very detrimental to civilized discussion and making a game that your fans will love and this is evident in things like the Tali and ending debacles. This a due, in no small part, to the lack of them coming here and chatting with us. If they had been doing so since the beginning this simply wouldn't be the case.

The more you talk with someone the more you understand them and the less likely it is that a conversation will break down into something less pleasant. We don't know or understand any of the ME devs because we never talk to them. They are magical people you never see and all you ever hear from them is bull**** statements written by some higher up. We never get to know their personal opinions, feelings or in what way they tend to share those things. Again, because of this there is a disconnect that doesn't allow for civilized conversation (in most cases) where each of us understands each other.

The shame of this is it all could have been avoided had there been a line in the job description that says you must interact with the community. It damn well should be an obligation as it will help to make better games and eliminate the disconnect. You yourself are an example of this. You come here and talk to us and because of this we get to know each other a bit and can have these conversations.

I'm reposting in hopes of a response.

Sorry, I've got about a dozen windows open at the moment, and in one of them I'm trying not to get eaten alive by poisonous spiders.

Anyways.

It really is up to the individual developer's discretion as to whether or not they post on the forums. Is that a good idea? I think so, partially because - not everyone has the appropriate temperament to do so. I'm fairly good at community interaction because I post in a relatively straightforward, easygoing fashion - and I have four years of selling televisions and computers to immunize me against the worst that people can throw my way.

As for the ME devs - again, I'm not pinning this on everyone (because, as evidenced by this thread, most of you are polite, well-spoken individuals), but I can tell you that, in the past week, I've seen everything from death threats to personal attacks to outright mean-spirited mockery and other such ugliness. It's nothing new, and again - it's not the majority of the community. But when there's not much you can say (and, let's be clear - there's very little that anyone can say at this point in time), it can be frustrating to be in the middle of that.

Hell, half my communication shortly after DA2 shipped was along the lines of 'we're listening'. Nothing more than that, because there wasn't much we could say. I guarantee you that the ME team is listening, whether or not they post, and I am quite certain that they're aware of what's being said on the forums. But whereas I can come in and say 'they're listening' without being torn apart, because I literally do not have the information you want, it would be a little different for them - because there's the idea that they can help you get what you want. I can't. Otherwise, there'd be an Elcor Vanguard in multiplayer.

It's hard to be patient, and I really do understand that (I lurked the Star Wars Galaxies forums for a couple of years before launch, and anytime I heard 'be patient' all I wanted was more information), but they can't really say anything until they have something concrete to say. It's not a slight against you, it's not them 'ignoring the fanbase', it's the reality of working in a publicly traded company as a front-line developer - you aren't always sure what you're allowed to talk about, and rather than taking the risk of saying something and having it quoted across the internet until you make someone important a little vexed, it's better to stay quiet until you A) have something to say and are quite sure of what that something is.

[John Epler]

devSin wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick.

Uh-huh.

"I learned to be tough" does sound more impressive than "I drink to numb the pain", I agree. ;-)

I drink for a variety of reasons, and numbing the pain is only one of them.

There's also the whole 'creativity juice' angle that I feel you've neglected.

[John Epler]

ohupthis wrote...

There is no ME team, this was all contrived thru E/A and their marketting cronies.

So ME sprung into the world, fully formed? Like a videogame equivalent of Athena?

That's certainly an interesting theory.

[John Epler]

mirage2154 wrote...

Better loss one hand than both hands, If ME is dead, atleast they can save DA. The time to get so Reputation for DA3 team so people could pre-order the game. They just playing with your emotion guys! It's sickening!

If that's how you feel, there's not much I can say about it. But if this were true - why are they using a fairly junior developer to do so? Wouldn't it be far more effective to take someone senior and have them do what I'm doing? The only thing I do that differentiates me from a number of other people on the team is that I'm rather more vocal on the forums.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but when you see a conspiracy in everything there's really not much I can say to change your mind.

[Allan Schumacher]

My point is that anyone "bullying" (not my word, but it will do) anyone on the internet is BS. How can you be bullied if you can easily avoid the person who is bothering you?

Just keep in mind that an effective way to deal with it is to not post. I had some horrific things said to me in regards to DAO and when you're not expecting it it's best to just take a break IMO.


I'll echo John though that I've kept posting because for the most part the community has kept it civil and fun, even if we don't agree on all issues. So props to them.

[John Epler]

mirage2154 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

mirage2154 wrote...

Better loss one hand than both hands, If ME is dead, atleast they can save DA. The time to get so Reputation for DA3 team so people could pre-order the game. They just playing with your emotion guys! It's sickening!

If that's how you feel, there's not much I can say about it. But if this were true - why are they using a fairly junior developer to do so? Wouldn't it be far more effective to take someone senior and have them do what I'm doing? The only thing I do that differentiates me from a number of other people on the team is that I'm rather more vocal on the forums.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but when you see a conspiracy in everything there's really not much I can say to change your mind.

I think I have to apollogize for my opnion. I have lost myself in negative emotion toward whole BW team, and I have admint that non of my opnion is base on facts. I think whatever the truth is, the people who make the game knows it better, for good or for ill. The only person we all have to face is ourself there's no escapse from it. Thank of showing the uglyside of myself.

No worries whatsoever. It's easy to get lost in emotion, and I certainly don't fault you for it. 

[Allan Schumacher]

No worries whatsoever. It's easy to get lost in emotion, and I certainly don't fault you for it.

He faults me for it all the time though.  "QA this.  QA that.  Stop hitting yourself!"


(Actually John seems A-OK and I really should try to get in on his lunchtime ME3 MP matches >.>)

[John Epler]

You didn't scare me away, but my internet is down and I'm posting from a cell phone - which is an enormous pain in the butt. So I'm out for the night, barring my internets miraculous recovery.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think we scared John and Allan...it is like seeing a deer so you sneak up on it and then punch it in the head so it quickly retreats.

I think we punched them in the head.

I was just posting in a different thread.

[Allan Schumacher]

RX_Sean_XI wrote...

At least you guys weren't punched in the head.

But, what about fetch missions? I have never gotten an answer on them (even on the Dragon Age side). In ME3 they seemed like filler missions to make it seem like a lot. Similar to DA2 as their percieved role, except in DA2 you could travel to their location. In ME3 they seemed to be added at the last moment.

Even with what JaylaClark said, the e-mail really didn't seem right. Anyone that I have talked to about it said it felt wrong.

My initial thoughts on the "fetch quests" was "neat, a different way to acquire a quest" based on how they were typically acquired by eavesdropping on a conversation.  In that sense, I didn't really mind them.  It seemed like an iterative thing to do with how they were in DA2, and maybe would provide a little bit more engagement to this type of content.

In this sense, I thought that they were an improvement over DA2 in that the quest had a more definitive intro and conclusion, even with some interesting dialogue such as with the Elcor Ambassador ()

The quests themselves are just something that I would do if it was along the path of another quest.  So in that sense I didn't find them particularly engaging.  By the time I reached Horizon I stopped doing them which I think is a fault.  In some cases, such as the one with the Elcor Ambassador, it was a bit jarring because I was hoping to land and see them, which I think makes the limitations of the light quests more apparent. 

Had they not existed at all, I probably wouldn't have had the conversation with the Elcor Ambassador which I did enjoy, so I don't think they're entirely bad.  I think they're improved upon over DA2, so maybe there are other ways to make them more interesting.  A big advantage of them is that they're lower cost which means if we can make them interesting, the idea of adding additional, interesting content is always appealing.


So basically diplomatic dev speak that doesn't actually say anything. 

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[Allan Schumacher]

RX_Sean_XI wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My initial thoughts on the "fetch quests" was "neat, a different way to acquire a quest" based on how they were typically acquired by eavesdropping on a conversation.  In that sense, I didn't really mind them.  It seemed like an iterative thing to do with how they were in DA2, and maybe would provide a little bit more engagement to this type of content.

In this sense, I thought that they were an improvement over DA2 in that the quest had a more definitive intro and conclusion, even with some interesting dialogue such as with the Elcor Ambassador ()

The quests themselves are just something that I would do if it was along the path of another quest.  So in that sense I didn't find them particularly engaging.  By the time I reached Horizon I stopped doing them which I think is a fault.  In some cases, such as the one with the Elcor Ambassador, it was a bit jarring because I was hoping to land and see them, which I think makes the limitations of the light quests more apparent. 

Had they not existed at all, I probably wouldn't have had the conversation with the Elcor Ambassador which I did enjoy, so I don't think they're entirely bad.  I think they're improved upon over DA2, so maybe there are ways to make them a bit interesting.  A big advantage of them is that they're lower cost which means if we can make them interesting, the idea of adding additional, interesting content is always appealing.


So basically diplomatic dev speak that doesn't actually say anything. 

I see where you are coming from on it.
The only one that was interesting in ME3 was the elcor one, but I would have liked to see one of the "tank elcors" in a mission.

I still think they were done better in DA2 but I think that is because of actually being able to see the area they were in.

I think that just might be an advantage that DA2 would have as it's always on the ground, but it's a fair point.  In the case of DA2 they added a bit by providing some reward for exploration, whereas in ME3 we get some extra dialogue (that's context sensitive, rather than DA2's which seemed to be reused a lot).  The Elcor one was by far the most interesting because it had a genuine conversation, which is maybe one way that we should consider approaching these.  I think the light quests are more interesting when you have a context for understanding why you are doing it, and a direct conversation is more direct player engagment.


(I just watched the Elcor Ambassador clip again, and I kinda just wanted to let the poor guy know he didn't need to preface his lines with the context... even for an Elcor I could hear the sadness and desperation in his voice )

[Allan Schumacher]

E-Type XR wrote...

Despite his position at BioWare, I honestly just see Allan as a fan with a fancy badge. While his words have more credence, due to his standing, if he were just a normal person he would still have great contributions to any thread.

Thanks! 

While I won't dispute that the BioWare tag will make me a target for some posters, I won't dispute that I have probably been able to have more interesting discussions with other fans because of it.  So I take the bad with the good.