339 réponses à ce sujet

[Zine2]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
What conversation? I've heard not a single peep out of the ME team since release. A conversation requires someone else communicating back to us. That has yet to happen.

What people want to hear isn't ambiguous feedback. They want to hear the ME3 team admit that the ending sucked - like how apparently 90% of people in the test screening said it sucked - and that they are now working to fix it.

Not "clarify". Not "maintain artistic integrity". Fix it.

And Bioware can chalk this up to "difference of opinion" however much they want, but that's seriously not going to work. People will just accuse them of PR-speak, because it's literally just PR-speak. The people trusted Bioware to deliver on a good ending. They failed. To the tune of 90% of the fanbase. That is the problem and no amount of PR dollars is ever going to change that. 

"We are fixing the ending". That is the only message that the fans want to hear.

[Isichar]

Zine2 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
What conversation? I've heard not a single peep out of the ME team since release. A conversation requires someone else communicating back to us. That has yet to happen.

What people want to hear isn't ambiguous feedback. They want to hear the ME3 team admit that the ending sucked - like how apparently 90% of people in the test screening said it sucked - and that they are now working to fix it.

Not "clarify". Not "maintain artistic integrity". Fix it.

And Bioware can chalk this up to "difference of opinion" however much they want, but that's seriously not going to work. People will just accuse them of PR-speak, because it's literally just PR-speak. The people trusted Bioware to deliver on a good ending. They failed. To the tune of 90% of the fanbase. That is the problem and no amount of PR dollars is ever going to change that. 

"We are fixing the ending". That is the only message that the fans want to hear.

Speak for yourself.

[Allan Schumacher]

RX_Sean_XI wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My initial thoughts on the "fetch quests" was "neat, a different way to acquire a quest" based on how they were typically acquired by eavesdropping on a conversation.  In that sense, I didn't really mind them.  It seemed like an iterative thing to do with how they were in DA2, and maybe would provide a little bit more engagement to this type of content.

In this sense, I thought that they were an improvement over DA2 in that the quest had a more definitive intro and conclusion, even with some interesting dialogue such as with the Elcor Ambassador ()

The quests themselves are just something that I would do if it was along the path of another quest.  So in that sense I didn't find them particularly engaging.  By the time I reached Horizon I stopped doing them which I think is a fault.  In some cases, such as the one with the Elcor Ambassador, it was a bit jarring because I was hoping to land and see them, which I think makes the limitations of the light quests more apparent. 

Had they not existed at all, I probably wouldn't have had the conversation with the Elcor Ambassador which I did enjoy, so I don't think they're entirely bad.  I think they're improved upon over DA2, so maybe there are ways to make them a bit interesting.  A big advantage of them is that they're lower cost which means if we can make them interesting, the idea of adding additional, interesting content is always appealing.


So basically diplomatic dev speak that doesn't actually say anything. 

I see where you are coming from on it.
The only one that was interesting in ME3 was the elcor one, but I would have liked to see one of the "tank elcors" in a mission.

I still think they were done better in DA2 but I think that is because of actually being able to see the area they were in.

I think that just might be an advantage that DA2 would have as it's always on the ground, but it's a fair point.  In the case of DA2 they added a bit by providing some reward for exploration, whereas in ME3 we get some extra dialogue (that's context sensitive, rather than DA2's which seemed to be reused a lot).  The Elcor one was by far the most interesting because it had a genuine conversation, which is maybe one way that we should consider approaching these.  I think the light quests are more interesting when you have a context for understanding why you are doing it, and a direct conversation is more direct player engagment.


(I just watched the Elcor Ambassador clip again, and I kinda just wanted to let the poor guy know he didn't need to preface his lines with the context... even for an Elcor I could hear the sadness and desperation in his voice )

[Zine2]

Isichar wrote...

Speak for yourself.

I speak for 90% of the fanbase; based on Bioware's own numbers, and find it funny how the 10% keep claiming the ending is "okay" by deliberately covering their ears and then "discounting" the problem of the 90%.

Again, all this denial will not help Bioware. There is a problem. It needs to be fixed. It is THAT simple.

This is now objective fact, and no amount of lying or PR-speak is gonna change that.

Modifié par Zine2, 18 avril 2012 - 07:47 .

[BigZ7337]

I think that there's a pretty simple explanation as to why none of the the Mass Effect developers post (as themselves at least) on the forum. The EA PR team have them locked down in a long-term bunker strategy. I think that it's very likely that they are not allowed to post in the forums, at least until the storm can blow over, and they're willing to wait for however long it takes.

[JaylaClark]

Zine2 wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...
What conversation? I've heard not a single peep out of the ME team since release. A conversation requires someone else communicating back to us. That has yet to happen.

What people want to hear isn't ambiguous feedback. They want to hear the ME3 team admit that the ending sucked - like how apparently 90% of people in the test screening said it sucked - and that they are now working to fix it.

Not "clarify". Not "maintain artistic integrity". Fix it.

And Bioware can chalk this up to "difference of opinion" however much they want, but that's seriously not going to work. People will just accuse them of PR-speak, because it's literally just PR-speak. The people trusted Bioware to deliver on a good ending. They failed. To the tune of 90% of the fanbase. That is the problem and no amount of PR dollars is ever going to change that. 

"We are fixing the ending". That is the only message that the fans want to hear.

The only reason I'm going along with ExCut is that I think that the ending is fixable, and simply so at that. I'll take a genuine effort for free over a yearlong retooling that has to cost Awakenings money to be done... tell you the truth, though, I think that EC should set up a possible retool like Broken Steel anyway.

Either that or EC should clearly state "we're doing this to set up 'Mass Effect III-2' starring Liara, Joker, the Professor and Maryanne" and give us an ETA at that. Just saying.

[Zine2]

JaylaClark wrote...
The only reason I'm going along with ExCut is that I think that the ending is fixable, and simply so at that. I'll take a genuine effort for free over a yearlong retooling that has to cost Awakenings money to be done... tell you the truth, though, I think that EC should set up a possible retool like Broken Steel anyway.

Either that or EC should clearly state "we're doing this to set up 'Mass Effect III-2' starring Liara, Joker, the Professor and Maryanne" and give us an ETA at that. Just saying.

The problem really is that even the ExCut's language is pretty vague. "Clarifications" is not the same as "Fixing".

If your car is broken, you don't want to hear the mechanic say "I have clarified the problem with your car". You want them to fix the problem with the car.

And like I've said several times, there's apparently a test screening conducted by Bioware prior to the game release which showed 90% of the testers saying the ending sucked. Releasing the ending as-is with that kind of data is inexcusable. It was objectively bad. That's what test screenings are for.

[JaylaClark]

Zine2 wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...
The only reason I'm going along with ExCut is that I think that the ending is fixable, and simply so at that. I'll take a genuine effort for free over a yearlong retooling that has to cost Awakenings money to be done... tell you the truth, though, I think that EC should set up a possible retool like Broken Steel anyway.

Either that or EC should clearly state "we're doing this to set up 'Mass Effect III-2' starring Liara, Joker, the Professor and Maryanne" and give us an ETA at that. Just saying.

The problem really is that even the ExCut's language is pretty vague. "Clarifications" is not the same as "Fixing".

If your car is broken, you don't want to hear the mechanic say "I have clarified the problem with your car". You want them to fix the problem with the car.

And like I've said several times, there's apparently a test screening conducted by Bioware prior to the game release which showed 90% of the testers saying the ending sucked. Releasing the ending as-is with that kind of data is inexcusable. It was objectively bad. That's what test screenings are for.

I am not disagreeing with you. With the structure of the ending as is, with the utter lack of closure and with the rather significant lack of explanation where it was needed, I don't doubt that 90 percent of people didn't find it a worthy conclusion, regardless of what the basis in fact for the number is.

But quite a lot of the problems in the ending, at least, will be fixed with clarification. (A story is an idea, not a utility or device, so it exists purely as ideas, and clarification is also all ideas.) Some of what Starchild says, I'd prefer them to rewrite to make it clear why he can't do a thing, why Shepard has to make the choice, the moral difference between TIM's plan and Control by Shepard... if they go this far the ending suddenly becomes sensical to start. (I hope they realize it and are prepared to stretch their mandate.) Adding an epilogue would then repair about nine-tenths of the damage by my math, leaving the Eden planet as the last plot hole to deal with, but I'd actually have lost my rage by that point, at least.

[Isichar]

Zine2 wrote...

JaylaClark wrote...
The only reason I'm going along with ExCut is that I think that the ending is fixable, and simply so at that. I'll take a genuine effort for free over a yearlong retooling that has to cost Awakenings money to be done... tell you the truth, though, I think that EC should set up a possible retool like Broken Steel anyway.

Either that or EC should clearly state "we're doing this to set up 'Mass Effect III-2' starring Liara, Joker, the Professor and Maryanne" and give us an ETA at that. Just saying.

The problem really is that even the ExCut's language is pretty vague. "Clarifications" is not the same as "Fixing".

If your car is broken, you don't want to hear the mechanic say "I have clarified the problem with your car". You want them to fix the problem with the car.

And like I've said several times, there's apparently a test screening conducted by Bioware prior to the game release which showed 90% of the testers saying the ending sucked. Releasing the ending as-is with that kind of data is inexcusable. It was objectively bad. That's what test screenings are for.

I keep seeing the word fix it pop up backed by your belief that everyone who dislikes the ending dislikes it for the same reasons as you. You may be surprised to find out that some fans would feel the ending you want would ruin the series the same way it was for you and others. Just saying.

Cause I can say I always considered myself an anti-ender I just enjoy trying to remain objective in terms of what bioware at least tried to convey.

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 08:07 .

[Torrible]

Zine2 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Speak for yourself.

I speak for 90% of the fanbase; based on Bioware's own numbers, and find it funny how the 10% keep claiming the ending is "okay" by deliberately covering their ears and then "discounting" the problem of the 90%.

Again, all this denial will not help Bioware. There is a problem. It needs to be fixed. It is THAT simple.

This is now objective fact, and no amount of lying or PR-speak is gonna change that.

http://social.biowar...13/polls/31694/ 
This poll shows that a happy ending (reunification with squad/LI) is very important to fans, with as many as 39% desperate for it enough to disregard "space magic", which I take it to mean the Catalyst and other plotholes. The comments are actually more telling.

From Jessica's tweets and Patrict Weekes' informal interview comments, mass relays are not destroyed, reunification with squad/LI is possible depending on choices and there is no galatic starvation. Weekes added that Joker leaving with the Normandy will be explained. Looks like a lot of wishes will be granted with the EC. 

Not sure the "Catalyst MUST go" crowd is as numerous as they want to think.

[Isichar]

Torrible wrote...

Zine2 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Speak for yourself.

I speak for 90% of the fanbase; based on Bioware's own numbers, and find it funny how the 10% keep claiming the ending is "okay" by deliberately covering their ears and then "discounting" the problem of the 90%.

Again, all this denial will not help Bioware. There is a problem. It needs to be fixed. It is THAT simple.

This is now objective fact, and no amount of lying or PR-speak is gonna change that.

http://social.biowar...13/polls/31694/ 
This poll shows that a happy ending (reunification with squad/LI) is very important to fans, with as many as 39% desperate for it enough to disregard "space magic", which I take it to mean the Catalyst and other plotholes. The comments are actually more telling.

From Jessica's tweets and Patrict Weekes' informal interview comments, mass relays are not destroyed, reunification with squad/LI is possible depending on choices and there is no galatic starvation. Weekes added that Joker leaving with the Normandy will be explained. Looks like a lot of wishes will be granted with the EC. 

Not sure the "Catalyst MUST go" crowd is as numerous as they want to think.

I just want those little blue babys

[Zine2]

Isichar wrote...

I keep seeing the word fix it pop up backed by your belief that everyone who dislikes the ending dislikes it for the same reasons as you. .

And I keep seeing you post complete and utter irrelevancy. Players don't care how it is fixed. As long as it is fixed. You don't care how the mechanics fixes your car, as long as it's running again.

This is a communication issue with Bioware. They are not simply saying what needs to be said.

Now, true, if the "fix" only pleases half of the fanbase, then it's still a problem, but a lesser problem. And it pressures Bioware to take the problem seriously. As it stands, they can simply say "We only promised clarifications! We never said you'll like the clarifications!"

Cause I can say I always considered ,yself generally an anti-ender I just enjoy trying to remain objective in terms of what bioware at least tried to convey.

Uh, yeah, trying to paint your opponent as "subjective". Way to go with emulating the stupid PR tactics Bioware has employed so far.

I am objectively pointing out that a lot of what Bioware says is ambiguous. You are in fact just trying to interpret what they say in the most positive light. Again, that's not gonna help when players have a problem. They think the ending sucked. To the tune of 90% of them.

The problem must be acknowledged and fixed. Not "clarified". Not "Defended with artistic integrity". "Fixed". Because that's what the players expect; and trying to hide behind "But there are so many ways to fix the problems" is not going to change this basic fact.

It's not up to the fans to find the right ending to please the majority. That was supposed to be Bioware's job. They should get to working on it instead of insisting that the ending was fine as-is despite a 90% disapproval rate.

Modifié par Zine2, 18 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

[kegNeggs]

wantedman dan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Because the the DA mods are listening to our feedback and passing it onto the DA3 team perhaps?

"Note to self: actually deliver on promises..."

I giggled. 

In any event, really nice thread and really nice DA people from the looks of it!

[Zine2]

Torrible wrote...
http://social.biowar...13/polls/31694/ 
This poll shows that a happy ending (reunification with squad/LI) is very important to fans, with as many as 39% desperate for it enough to disregard "space magic", which I take it to mean the Catalyst and other plotholes. The comments are actually more telling.

From Jessica's tweets and Patrict Weekes' informal interview comments, mass relays are not destroyed, reunification with squad/LI is possible depending on choices and there is no galatic starvation. Weekes added that Joker leaving with the Normandy will be explained. Looks like a lot of wishes will be granted with the EC. 

Not sure the "Catalyst MUST go" crowd is as numerous as they want to think.

Cop out.

Of course fans want different things.

But the responsibility for crafting an ending that satisfies the majority of the fanbase was always on Bioware's shoulders. They failed on this on the first try. Spectacularly. To the point that 90% of the test audience said it sucked. And other polls are all close to this 90% figure.

How they fix it is irrelevant, as long as it ultimately satisfies a much greater proportion of the base. So all your quibbling about the details on how they should fix the ending is exactly that - mere quibbling. It doesn't matter to the fans, because it's Bioware's job to fix the ending.

They could have a happy ending. They could have a sad ending. It seriously doesn't matter as long as far fewer fans think the ending "sucks".

If they manage to pull it off with just "clarifications", good for them. But if not, then it will not fundamentally resolve the issue - most players thought the ending sucked. If the endings STILL suck for a huge majority after the clarification, then Bioware failed.

And in the meantime, they should communicate in terms of FIXING the issue; rather than being ambiguous. Because "clarifications" is not the same as "fixing".

[GorrilaKing]

Udalango wrote...

"Because a response from a Mass Effect member would be taken as an Official Statement and therefore cause more problems when it is reported"
Thts basically what I got told

When all we have asked for is exactly that...a friggin' official statement! So basically they do not want to say anything or, for lack of a better word, have had their collective mouths clamped shut...and I'd bet the farm on who is responsible for that policy.

[Isichar]

Zine2 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I keep seeing the word fix it pop up backed by your belief that everyone who dislikes the ending dislikes it for the same reasons as you. .

And I keep seeing you post complete and utter irrelevancy. Players don't care how it is fixed. As long as it is fixed. You don't care how the mechanics fixes your car, as long as it's running again.

This is a communication issue with Bioware. They are not simply saying what needs to be said.

Now, true, if the "fix" only pleases half of the fanbase, then it's still a problem, but a lesser problem. And it pressures Bioware to take the problem seriously. As it stands, they can simply say "We only promised clarifications! We never said you'll like the clarifications!"

Cause I can say I always considered ,yself generally an anti-ender I just enjoy trying to remain objective in terms of what bioware at least tried to convey.

Uh, yeah, trying to paint your opponent as "subjective". Way to go with emulating the stupid PR tactics Bioware has employed so far.

I am objectively pointing out that a lot of what Bioware says is ambiguous. You are in fact just trying to interpret what they say in the most positive light. Again, that's not gonna help when players have a problem. They think the ending sucked. To the tune of 90% of them.

The problem must be acknowledged and fixed. Not "clarified". Not "Defended with artistic integrity". "Fixed". Because that's what the players expect; and trying to hide behind "But there are so many ways to fix the problems" is not going to change this basic fact.

It's not up to the fans to find the right ending to please the majority. That was supposed to be Bioware's job. They should get to working on it instead of insisting the 90% disapproval ending was good.

Listen I didnt start this thread to have fans come in and scream "FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT" over and over and tell us how bioware is not listening, I want to think that bioware can repair the gap between them and the fans. You just want to scream at them until you get what you want. What your saying is the exact opposite of what I think could actually fix the endings. But its all just opinions in the end.

[Zine2]

Isichar wrote...
Listen I didnt start this thread to have fans come in and scream "FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT" over and over and tell us how bioware is not listening, I want to think that bioware can repair the gap between them and the fans. You just want to scream at them until you get what you want. What your saying is the exact opposite of what I think could actually fix the endings. But its all just opinions in the end.

We are the customers. Bioware is the supplier. This is what you keep failing to comprehend. We owe them nothing, because we already paid them for the service. They owe us an ending that actually satisfiies more than 10% of the fanbase.

So stop your pointless crawling and begging. Stop giving them false hope that it can be fixed by soothing words and PR magic. It can't.

Again, the core of the problem is simple:

90% of players thought the ending sucked.

Fix the ending.

Don't clarify, FIX.

It's that simple.

[bobafett007]

at this point you guys are arguing semantics. moving on...

[Federally]

I appreciate the DA guys who post here and its almost convinced me to give EA/BioWare another chance with DA3. But sadly with DA2 and ME3 being not rewarding gaming experiences, plus other non BioWare related issues, i've decided its best to just not buy anything published by EA. I just wish we still had the old independent BioWare those sure were better days.

[Terror_K]

Re: Fetch quests.

They wouldn't have been so bad had they 1) Not been mostly identical, 2) Incorporated some cinematics and dialogue choices when turning-in, and 3) been almost the only sidequests the game had to offer.

Sure, people complained about ME1's planets being all the same, but at least the quests often had proper introductions, some dialogue choices, interesting NPCs, etc. Some were set up by hearing a news report, some by hacking a terminal, and some by talking with somebody.

90% of ME3's ones were the same: overhear something, find some long lost artifact belonging to *insert race here*, fan it just by scanning or clicking on the Spectre terminal rather than a proper mission, turn in just by clicking on the person you overheard. Rinse and repeat. Extremely weak compared to the variety of sidequests ME1 gave us, and even weak compared to ME2's "trip over it during a mission 'cause you can't miss it" fetch quests such as the asari trinket and Tomka manifold. I personally found the elcor one the most disappointing in ME3, because it seemed like it was going somewhere interesting and was going to be a proper mission, but then was a just "find homeworld, return and turn in" affair. Add to that the amount of recycled multiplayer levels they used for the remaining sidequests, and ME3 was the worst of the three games for side-content. With rare exceptions, it was like the ME3 team just didn't want to put any effort whatsoever into the side-content, and the more removed it seemed to be from the main plot, the weaker and more half-assed it became.

Modifié par Terror_K, 18 avril 2012 - 11:21 .

[bobafett007]

It's easy to blame it on the fact they are now owned by EA. But even if EA gave them a deadline and budget restriction, Bioware still wrote the ending and decided it was a good idea. Lots of artists best work are when they have limited time and budget. It makes them have to get more creative and usually there best work comes out of it. They could have done something else if they wanted to, it could still have come out good. But I don't blame EA, even if they gave them a deadline. Bioware knew what they had to work with from the beginning so they could have made it work which they almost did. I'm still gonna give DA3 a chance. The DA team is pretty cool, and they haven't done anything to deserve a boycott. And now cue all the people about to say "yeah but DA 2!" It was still a good game despite it's flaws and I am willing to think after the reaction from it and ME3, that DA3 could be super awesome.

[Tirranek]

I for one really appreciate the discussion that results from your (them DA folks) involvement in threads. It's nice to have a middle-of-the-road conversation about all this.

Modifié par Tirranek, 18 avril 2012 - 11:39 .

[Terror_K]

bobafett007 wrote...

It's easy to blame it on the fact they are now owned by EA. But even if EA gave them a deadline and budget restriction, Bioware still wrote the ending and decided it was a good idea. Lots of artists best work are when they have limited time and budget. It makes them have to get more creative and usually there best work comes out of it. They could have done something else if they wanted to, it could still have come out good. But I don't blame EA, even if they gave them a deadline. Bioware knew what they had to work with from the beginning so they could have made it work which they almost did. I'm still gonna give DA3 a chance. The DA team is pretty cool, and they haven't done anything to deserve a boycott. And now cue all the people about to say "yeah but DA 2!" It was still a good game despite it's flaws and I am willing to think after the reaction from it and ME3, that DA3 could be super awesome.

Even if I wasn't done with BioWare as a whole, I'd be done with DA (and am). DA2 was just far too much of a departure from the original, and deliberately so. As far as I'm concerned BioWare and the DA2 team pretty much ruined what could have been a great fantasy RPG series by making almost all the wrong moves at every turn. Half-rebooting it didn't help either, let alone the fact that it deliberately turned its back on everything the series was originally supposed to be. As nice as some of these DA guys seem to be... sorry, but the franchise is beyond repair now and is just not going anywhere good because the higher-ups in charge of it continue to stubbornly charge ahead with the direction DA2 moved the Dragon Age IP instead of doing what they should: wiping DA2 from existence and going back to what the series should be.

Now, to bring this back to ME3 since this is a Mass Effect topic and forum: despite Mass Effect 3's failings, it at least didn't do that. With the possible exception of the last five minutes, ME3 still, essentially, felt like the Mass Effect universe and didn't end up spitting on absolutely everything that came before it, massively change its genre, change up the visual style (though some return character designs were waaaaay off, such as Bailey, Udina, Matriarch Aethyta, etc.) and all that. Ignoring the final moments of the game, I can still say, "Mass Effect 3 was Mass Effect." I can't say that about Dragon Age 2, because I feel, overall, it was a bigger departure. Dragon Age 2 killed Dragon Age for me and left me with the mentality that the entire Dragon Age IP is just one game, one expansion and two novels. Mass Effect isn't a dead IP like Dragon Age is, IMO, as I only really want to wipe the final moments of ME3 and not the entire game like I did with DA2.

Modifié par Terror_K, 18 avril 2012 - 12:08 .

[Oransel]

Fan flame reaction is an answer to ME team completely ignoring us. The more Bioware will stay silent and hidden, the worse outcome the whole situation will have. All they need is one thread, one post with simple words: "We were wrong. We are sorry. We will fix everything". That's it for me to stop any flame immediately. But they are silent, refusing to admit their mistake, also trolling us.

[ShadowSoldier89]

I do appreciate what the DA teams response on these forums has been, and I would like to apologize to them wholeheartedly in advance due to the fact that I will not be purchasing DA3 because of the mass effect PR team, as well as the statements of Casey Hudson and Ray Muzyka.

I realize DA and ME are completely separate teams, however it is one company.

I was looking forward to DA3, especially with how PR handled DA2s issues (which I didn't completely hate the game, and I did buy both DLC scenarios). Outcry there wasn't handled well at first, but since then we've gotten apologies (or something equivalent) for the repeated dungeon design, as well as the ending choice, and promises to fix things going forward like ally equipment. So DA team, thank you for this, and I am sorry.

Modifié par ShadowSoldier89, 18 avril 2012 - 12:37 .