339 réponses à ce sujet

[Auralius Carolus]

The Mods realized their war assets weren't high enough to handle the situation, so they went for backup?

[Grusome11]

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

[John Epler]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

The Mods realized their war assets weren't high enough to handle the situation, so they went for backup?

The mods are the same people they always were. There's no backup - I asked if I could chip in when I saw some trolling in the character forum pre-release, and I've stuck around because, well, I believe in a healthy community.

[Isichar]

indyracing wrote...

John Epler wrote...

And I think, unfortunately, this is part of the problem. None of this is intended by the statements that have been made. No one thinks that you're stupid if you don't like the ending. There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent, and here's the thing - everyone believes that they're a part of 'us', because who wants to be a part of 'them'? 

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant. And interacting with the community has, by and large, always been a voluntary thing. There's nowhere in my job description that says 'MUST INTERACT WITH FANS'. Lots of stuff about design-related responsibilities, but I do the community stuff because, hey, I enjoy it, and I apparently have a healthy masochistic streak 

Anyways. Most of you remain civil and polite, and I very much appreciate it. Keep it up!

That's sad to hear.

I understand why it's the case, but it's still sad.

The reason I think it's sad is because what little DOES get posted from someone connected to Mass Effect specifically comes off as false.  It's clear that it's carefully scrutinized by someone from PR, and my experience (from well before the Mass Effect pre-release quotes) is that anything coming from, or scrutinized by, PR is, on at least some level, always dishonest.  Not always a lie, in fact hardly ever a lie, but always twists the truth at least slightly to favor whatever company the PR person works for.  You can see this with the pretty obvious honest personal tweets that are always removed quickly.  What that person says is pretty obviously the truth as they see it, but then someone from PR decides it may end up making the company look bad, and it's removed.

I contend (and I'm sure it's because I'm jaded with regards to PR over the years, and I'm positive I'm not in any sort of tiny minority, but a rather substantial minority, if not the majority in that regard) is that the fact that the only thing coming from any Mass Effect-specific person at Bioware is either from PR or has been scrubbed by PR is actually doing Bioware's reputation harm.  More harm than any truth would do (barring something extremely abhorrent).

It makes me feel like no one at Bioware cares.

Even though I logically know that has to be false, there's very little evidence that it actually is false.

On a personal level, for me, Bioware was the ONE gaming company I implicitly trusted.  I trusted so much so that when I new game came out bought it no questions asked - I don't trust professional reviewers, so I don't ever read those anyway - I listen to actual gamers for opinions if I'm looking for them before I buy a game.  You can check my thread history and see the thread I started about DA 2 if you want - the title is shockingly similar to the one I started about Mass Effect 3 - but the content is drastically different.

But back to my point.  Bioware was the one company I implicitly trusted to always "write a good story".  So much so that I own every piece of software you guys have produced (barring a few armor and weapon DLCs from Mass Effect - but every story piece) for every game since Baldur's Gate, including all expansions.  I bought them on or very shortly after release date, even if I had no intention of playing for months.  Bioware simply never failed to deliver.

For me, Mass Effect 3 destroyed that trust, and that implicit trust can never be re-earned.  Your guys' next game may be great, but I will never be able to assume it's so, because I got burned badly with Mass Effect 3.  As a long-time gamer - who's hobbies are reading, jogging and gaming, the reality is that the ONE company I could trust to always deliver a good if not great story failed to deliver (in about as bad a way as I can imagine, without doing it intentionally) on arguably their best, to that point, story (Baldur's Gate 2 has a say in this).

The fact that nothing that feels honest (not saying they are lies, but everything is definitely PR scrubbed and "safe") has come from the Mass Effect team since it's release is only helping to erode that trust what little more it can be eroded (or prevent it from recovering).

That may seem all melodramatic, but as my favorite hobby (since the C64 days and Bard's Tale), gaming is my main entertainment (unless I'm in a reading period).  And you guys were the best at making the kind of games I love, until now, and I get the impression that no one REALLY thinks there's anything subpar about ME 3, and that the free DLC and the "we're listening" threads are just appeasement, and therefore it feels disingenous, which angers me even more.

Again, I understand why no one from ME comments, but that doesn't change the fact that the lack of comments, for me, is making the situation worse.

And then the cynical, snarky, sarcastic side of me wants to chip in and say "well they already have my money anyway, so I don't really matter."

I remember when "someone who shall remain nameless" tweeted about the retake mass effect charity it was taken down within the hour. When a statement the endings wouldnt be changed came out bioware also had to quickly release another official statement saying it was still up in the air.

Its clear they are not entirely honest.

I feel the same way as you. I always bought bioware games unconditionally and trusted the company (DA2 didnt hurt this trust much though it had issues) so its sad to see such a huge issue come at a moment when it mattered most, and just to get stonewalled. Same as you I get why bioware does it, but it still does not help my loss in trust. The DLC does not help much either until i see it.

[John Epler]

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

[Blind2Society]

Blind2Society wrote...

John Epler wrote...
 There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant.

This is because there is a disconnect between the fan base and the devs which can be very detrimental to civilized discussion and making a game that your fans will love and this is evident in things like the Tali and ending debacles. This a due, in no small part, to the lack of them coming here and chatting with us. If they had been doing so since the beginning this simply wouldn't be the case.

The more you talk with someone the more you understand them and the less likely it is that a conversation will break down into something less pleasant. We don't know or understand any of the ME devs because we never talk to them. They are magical people you never see and all you ever hear from them is bull**** statements written by some higher up. We never get to know their personal opinions, feelings or in what way they tend to share those things. Again, because of this there is a disconnect that doesn't allow for civilized conversation (in most cases) where each of us understands each other.

The shame of this is it all could have been avoided had there been a line in the job description that says you must interact with the community. It damn well should be an obligation as it will help to make better games and eliminate the disconnect. You yourself are an example of this. You come here and talk to us and because of this we get to know each other a bit and can have these conversations.

I'm reposting in hopes of a response.

[Isichar]

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Well theres a difference between the odd flame and thousands of people who feel you ruined their favorite franchise. Going silent on a very open-ended ending im not entirely sure was the best solution. Alot of the people on these forums are very frustrated with the speculation involved to make things work. Half of the info i have to show me that not everyone dies in the ending is the small bits and pieces of information the ME team has passed along. The problem is the information is so generalized like "not everyone starves" or "the mass relay explosions dont kill everyone" when theres not really much ingame to support what they say...

[uwyz]

John Epler wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

And it would help if the PR bullcrap wasn't, "We're awesome, you're stupid if you don't like our art, but we suppose we'll do a clarification DLC for you sense you're too stupid to understand our greatness. After all, we never promised a game that fit well with the other two! Instead, we gave you art!!"  

And I think, unfortunately, this is part of the problem. None of this is intended by the statements that have been made. No one thinks that you're stupid if you don't like the ending. There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent, and here's the thing - everyone believes that they're a part of 'us', because who wants to be a part of 'them'? 

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant. And interacting with the community has, by and large, always been a voluntary thing. There's nowhere in my job description that says 'MUST INTERACT WITH FANS'. Lots of stuff about design-related responsibilities, but I do the community stuff because, hey, I enjoy it, and I apparently have a healthy masochistic streak 

Anyways. Most of you remain civil and polite, and I very much appreciate it. Keep it up!

I appreciate the communications from the Bioware staff, their engagement tells me that they are listening to feedbacks. I don't expect any devs to come here and answer the charges about "false advertising" or "questionable business practice" raised by some members of the community - those kind of communication rightfully belong to public relations. I am also not surprised by the official statements that express pride in ME3's accomplishments - there were indeed many accomplishments in the series, and the developers worked hard to ship the product. Such statements are acknowledgement to the team's efforts. One would expect project leads or CEOs to make this kind of statement in every public address.

I do find it frustrating though that Bioware has not yet make any comment on some of the biggest concerns from the community critics. So far there has been no acknowledgement from devs on the many plotholes in the ending, and on why key themes in the plot was abandoned. For example, if the series' main theme is a celebration of cultural diversity and the value of every form of life, synthetics included, then why is it that the ending forces the player to make decision based on the predicate that synthetics and organics cannot peacifully coexist? That only the termination (or forciful assimilation) of one can assure the future of the other? Do the writers of the series consider this to be a problem? Or did the players misunderstood the message of the story? Clarifications from the series' creators could go a long way to calm those of us confused and unhappy about the ending. With the Extended Cut on the way, even a nod that "these questions would be addressed" will go a long way. After all, if Bioware is willing to acknowledge these concerns, then we can at least be assured that they will be addressed - they may not be the conclusion many of us wished for, but at least we can get the answers and understand  the reason behind them.

However, the level of bile in this forum has made this kind of communication very risky for ME devs. There are a lot of people who see themselves as swindled customers and wish to vent against the company that "cheated" them. There are also many who wish to see ME end the way they think it deserves to end, and attack anything that deviate from their vision of how the story should proceed. It is like Mr. Epler said, whatever gets posted can be relentlessly torn apart and used to fuel the hosility that many already habors, This is really unfortunate. To receive communication from the dev team, we have to foster an environment where their input are respected and accepted. Many of us are willing to do that, but some do not.

[Isichar]

uwyz wrote...

John Epler wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

And it would help if the PR bullcrap wasn't, "We're awesome, you're stupid if you don't like our art, but we suppose we'll do a clarification DLC for you sense you're too stupid to understand our greatness. After all, we never promised a game that fit well with the other two! Instead, we gave you art!!"  

And I think, unfortunately, this is part of the problem. None of this is intended by the statements that have been made. No one thinks that you're stupid if you don't like the ending. There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent, and here's the thing - everyone believes that they're a part of 'us', because who wants to be a part of 'them'? 

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant. And interacting with the community has, by and large, always been a voluntary thing. There's nowhere in my job description that says 'MUST INTERACT WITH FANS'. Lots of stuff about design-related responsibilities, but I do the community stuff because, hey, I enjoy it, and I apparently have a healthy masochistic streak 

Anyways. Most of you remain civil and polite, and I very much appreciate it. Keep it up!

I appreciate the communications from the Bioware staff, their engagement tells me that they are listening to feedbacks. I don't expect any devs to come here and answer the charges about "false advertising" or "questionable business practice" raised by some members of the community - those kind of communication rightfully belong to public relations. I am also not surprised by the official statements that express pride in ME3's accomplishments - there were indeed many accomplishments in the series, and the developers worked hard to ship the product. Such statements are acknowledgement to the team's efforts. One would expect project leads or CEOs to make this kind of statement in every public address.

I do find it frustrating though that Bioware has not yet make any comment on some of the biggest concerns from the community critics. So far there has been no acknowledgement from devs on the many plotholes in the ending, and on why key themes in the plot was abandoned. For example, if the series' main theme is a celebration of cultural diversity and the value of every form of life, synthetics included, then why is it that the ending forces the player to make decision based on the predicate that synthetics and organics cannot peacifully coexist? That only the termination (or forciful assimilation) of one can assure the future of the other? Do the writers of the series consider this to be a problem? Or did the players misunderstood the message of the story? Clarifications from the series' creators could go a long way to calm those of us confused and unhappy about the ending. With the Extended Cut on the way, even a nod that "these questions would be addressed" will go a long way. After all, if Bioware is willing to acknowledge these concerns, then we can at least be assured that they will be addressed - they may not be the conclusion many of us wished for, but at least we can get the answers and understand  the reason behind them.

However, the level of bile in this forum has made this kind of communication very risky for ME devs. There are a lot of people who see themselves as swindled customers and wish to vent against the company that "cheated" them. There are also many who wish to see ME end the way they think it deserves to end, and attack anything that deviate from their vision of how the story should proceed. It is like Mr. Epler said, whatever gets posted can be relentlessly torn apart and used to fuel the hosility that many already habors, This is really unfortunate. To receive communication from the dev team, we have to foster an environment where their input are respected and accepted. Many of us are willing to do that, but some do not.

Ban the S--- out of them if they cant remain civil Imo. Flamers does no one any good, they make us look bad and are not helping bioware with their flames. People can disagree all they want but its not like im asking bioware to accept personal attacks against their employees.

[TJX2045]

John Epler wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

To Grusome, I think this photo explains it all.



Just because someone isn't physically attacked on the internet doesn't mean it's not an attack.  It's a mental attack. And let's face it, the internet generation NOW is much different than 10 years ago when there was dial up and when I was in middle school.  Even middle school and high school bullying wasn't as bad as the things I see people post on the internet now.  Some people may avoid all the ignorant hateful tripe of trolls and ragers because they have a lot on their plate or they just can't deal with all that at once.

Respect goes a LONG way.  Hell, I wouldn't show my head either if people were giving death threats and insults like that either.  People are psycho.

Also +1 internets to John for respecting the civil people and not putting up with rude ones.

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite moderator post on the Citadel!

Modifié par TJX2045, 18 avril 2012 - 04:28 .

[Blind2Society]

Yeah, it's a hopeless cause now but it wouldn't have been had they been frequenting the forums before this all happened.

[Avissel]

John Epler wrote...
And, of course, I am a sucker for the community. I weathered the post-DA2 forum storm, living through Mangiraffedog. My skin is appropriately thick.

Thanks John, I could have lived happily never remembering that.

I STILL get notfied that I have a friend invite pending from him after how every many times he got banned.

[Aiyie]

personally, im fine with fewer responses from the ME team right now.

im taking that as a sign that they're pretty busy addressing our concerns in whatever manner their bosses have instructed them to.

that the DA mods are here... well its nice to see that Bioware has people that are interested in the community just for the sake of interacting with us.

honestly, i expect we'd see the ME team mods doing the same thing in the DA forums if things were flipped around and it wasn't the ME team under the gun to make things right.

[Grusome11]

John Epler wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

Not exactly what I am saying.

My point is that anyone "bullying" (not my word, but it will do) anyone on the internet is BS. How can you be bullied if you can easily avoid the person who is bothering you?

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

Anyone being flamed or insulted on the net can "toughen up" or they can just block the person. You don't have to read something insulting.

Of course, no one should threaten anyone else, but insults are a fact of life. And I agree that anyone has the right to avoid a place inhabited by people they do not like (BW employees as well).

However this statement I made

"Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something
that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult."

should have been clarified with the points I have made above.

[devSin]

John Epler wrote...

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick.

Uh-huh.

"I learned to be tough" does sound more impressive than "I drink to numb the pain", I agree. ;-)

[John Epler]

Blind2Society wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

John Epler wrote...
 There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant.

This is because there is a disconnect between the fan base and the devs which can be very detrimental to civilized discussion and making a game that your fans will love and this is evident in things like the Tali and ending debacles. This a due, in no small part, to the lack of them coming here and chatting with us. If they had been doing so since the beginning this simply wouldn't be the case.

The more you talk with someone the more you understand them and the less likely it is that a conversation will break down into something less pleasant. We don't know or understand any of the ME devs because we never talk to them. They are magical people you never see and all you ever hear from them is bull**** statements written by some higher up. We never get to know their personal opinions, feelings or in what way they tend to share those things. Again, because of this there is a disconnect that doesn't allow for civilized conversation (in most cases) where each of us understands each other.

The shame of this is it all could have been avoided had there been a line in the job description that says you must interact with the community. It damn well should be an obligation as it will help to make better games and eliminate the disconnect. You yourself are an example of this. You come here and talk to us and because of this we get to know each other a bit and can have these conversations.

I'm reposting in hopes of a response.

Sorry, I've got about a dozen windows open at the moment, and in one of them I'm trying not to get eaten alive by poisonous spiders.

Anyways.

It really is up to the individual developer's discretion as to whether or not they post on the forums. Is that a good idea? I think so, partially because - not everyone has the appropriate temperament to do so. I'm fairly good at community interaction because I post in a relatively straightforward, easygoing fashion - and I have four years of selling televisions and computers to immunize me against the worst that people can throw my way.

As for the ME devs - again, I'm not pinning this on everyone (because, as evidenced by this thread, most of you are polite, well-spoken individuals), but I can tell you that, in the past week, I've seen everything from death threats to personal attacks to outright mean-spirited mockery and other such ugliness. It's nothing new, and again - it's not the majority of the community. But when there's not much you can say (and, let's be clear - there's very little that anyone can say at this point in time), it can be frustrating to be in the middle of that.

Hell, half my communication shortly after DA2 shipped was along the lines of 'we're listening'. Nothing more than that, because there wasn't much we could say. I guarantee you that the ME team is listening, whether or not they post, and I am quite certain that they're aware of what's being said on the forums. But whereas I can come in and say 'they're listening' without being torn apart, because I literally do not have the information you want, it would be a little different for them - because there's the idea that they can help you get what you want. I can't. Otherwise, there'd be an Elcor Vanguard in multiplayer.

It's hard to be patient, and I really do understand that (I lurked the Star Wars Galaxies forums for a couple of years before launch, and anytime I heard 'be patient' all I wanted was more information), but they can't really say anything until they have something concrete to say. It's not a slight against you, it's not them 'ignoring the fanbase', it's the reality of working in a publicly traded company as a front-line developer - you aren't always sure what you're allowed to talk about, and rather than taking the risk of saying something and having it quoted across the internet until you make someone important a little vexed, it's better to stay quiet until you A) have something to say and are quite sure of what that something is.

[Isichar]

Grusome11 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

Not exactly what I am saying.

My point is that anyone "bullying" (not my word, but it will do) anyone on the internet is BS. How can you be bullied if you can easily avoid the person who is bothering you?

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

Anyone being flamed or insulted on the net can "toughen up" or they can just block the person. You don't have to read something insulting.

Of course, no one should threaten anyone else, but insults are a fact of life. And I agree that anyone has the right to avoid a place inhabited by people they do not like (BW employees as well).

However this statement I made

"Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something
that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult."

should have been clarified with the points I have made above.

thats ignorant and that way of thinking wont get us anywhere. People say the same thing in real life, bullying happens its just part of life and you gotta deal with it. Dont encourage that.

Instead of bringing bioware employees here to "face the music" why not get them here so maybe they can hear some real opinions on how to improve on the ending? hm

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 04:38 .

[uwyz]

Isichar wrote...

uwyz wrote...

John Epler wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

And it would help if the PR bullcrap wasn't, "We're awesome, you're stupid if you don't like our art, but we suppose we'll do a clarification DLC for you sense you're too stupid to understand our greatness. After all, we never promised a game that fit well with the other two! Instead, we gave you art!!"  

And I think, unfortunately, this is part of the problem. None of this is intended by the statements that have been made. No one thinks that you're stupid if you don't like the ending. There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent, and here's the thing - everyone believes that they're a part of 'us', because who wants to be a part of 'them'? 

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant. And interacting with the community has, by and large, always been a voluntary thing. There's nowhere in my job description that says 'MUST INTERACT WITH FANS'. Lots of stuff about design-related responsibilities, but I do the community stuff because, hey, I enjoy it, and I apparently have a healthy masochistic streak 

Anyways. Most of you remain civil and polite, and I very much appreciate it. Keep it up!

I appreciate the communications from the Bioware staff, their engagement tells me that they are listening to feedbacks. I don't expect any devs to come here and answer the charges about "false advertising" or "questionable business practice" raised by some members of the community - those kind of communication rightfully belong to public relations. I am also not surprised by the official statements that express pride in ME3's accomplishments - there were indeed many accomplishments in the series, and the developers worked hard to ship the product. Such statements are acknowledgement to the team's efforts. One would expect project leads or CEOs to make this kind of statement in every public address.

I do find it frustrating though that Bioware has not yet make any comment on some of the biggest concerns from the community critics. So far there has been no acknowledgement from devs on the many plotholes in the ending, and on why key themes in the plot was abandoned. For example, if the series' main theme is a celebration of cultural diversity and the value of every form of life, synthetics included, then why is it that the ending forces the player to make decision based on the predicate that synthetics and organics cannot peacifully coexist? That only the termination (or forciful assimilation) of one can assure the future of the other? Do the writers of the series consider this to be a problem? Or did the players misunderstood the message of the story? Clarifications from the series' creators could go a long way to calm those of us confused and unhappy about the ending. With the Extended Cut on the way, even a nod that "these questions would be addressed" will go a long way. After all, if Bioware is willing to acknowledge these concerns, then we can at least be assured that they will be addressed - they may not be the conclusion many of us wished for, but at least we can get the answers and understand  the reason behind them.

However, the level of bile in this forum has made this kind of communication very risky for ME devs. There are a lot of people who see themselves as swindled customers and wish to vent against the company that "cheated" them. There are also many who wish to see ME end the way they think it deserves to end, and attack anything that deviate from their vision of how the story should proceed. It is like Mr. Epler said, whatever gets posted can be relentlessly torn apart and used to fuel the hosility that many already habors, This is really unfortunate. To receive communication from the dev team, we have to foster an environment where their input are respected and accepted. Many of us are willing to do that, but some do not.

Ban the S--- out of them if they cant remain civil Imo. Flamers does no one any good, they make us look bad and are not helping bioware with their flames. People can disagree all they want but its not like im asking bioware to accept personal attacks against their employees.

I agree. Some of the threads in this forum can become shouting rings for factions with different opinions seeking to outdo each other in meanness and insults, a pit where they tear each other apart - hardly an environment that foster healthy discussion and encourage people to embrace different perspectives. Personal attacks are unacceptable, especially when waged against Bioware's employees on their own forum.

On the subject of communication, I did notice an imposter who registered a "Casey Hudson" account on youtube and who has been releasing statements regarding ME3 in Casey Hudson's name there (http://www.youtube.c...jSGFNx-9I8Q1jcg). Perhaps the Bioware moderators would like to expose this account?

[Grusome11]

TJX2045 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

To Grusome, I think this photo explains it all.



Just because someone isn't physically attacked on the internet doesn't mean it's not an attack.  It's a mental attack. And let's face it, the internet generation NOW is much different than 10 years ago when there was dial up and when I was in middle school.  Even middle school and high school bullying wasn't as bad as the things I see people post on the internet now.  Some people may avoid all the ignorant hateful tripe of trolls and ragers because they have a lot on their plate or they just can't deal with all that at once.

Respect goes a LONG way.  Hell, I wouldn't show my head either if people were giving death threats and insults like that either.  People are psycho.

Also +1 internets to John for respecting the civil people and not putting up with rude ones.

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite moderator post on the Citadel!

I will have to agree to disagree. While words might hurt, on the net one can easily avoid those people.

I agree that respect is important, but respect is earned.

I did not grow up in this persent generation, so perhaps I do not understand, but it's hard to hurt someone with words when you can't even hear their words.

[translationninja]

[quote]Grusome11 wrote...

[quote]John Epler wrote...

[quote]Grusome11 wrote...

[quote]Darth Spike wrote...

-snip-
[/quote]

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'
-snip-
[/quote]

-snip-

[/quote]

I don't see anything wrong with that approach. This place is a powder keg, and in terms of corporate communications as well as employees having to weather a storm they personally haven't caused it is wise not to fan the flames.

I fervently hate the ending with a vengeance and certainly would have appreciated to get more dialogue than canned and stale PR-speak, however, there are plenty of people around here that just can't separate the "issue with the product" and personally attacking anyone whom is remotely associated with BW.

To this effect, it has nothing to do with whimping out, but there is no point in creating potential situations where the ****storm is being reignited.

Those guys are human too you know? It is perfectly reasonable to assume that someone might blow a lid after taking abuse through hundreds of posts and then what?

You'd be looking at articles all over the place how "BW snaps at its fans."

I'm not defending any particular party here, but whilst I don't enjoy the status quo, I can at least understand it. 

[Maria Caliban]

Grusome11 wrote...

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

I think it's insulting to imply that someone being hurt by a personal attack makes them an eight-year-old girl.

[Isichar]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

I think it's insulting to imply that someone being hurt by a personal attack makes them an eight-year-old girl.

Its pretty easy to not take it personally when you dont got people willing to take what you say and slander you and your company all over the internet with it too.

[Grusome11]

Isichar wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

Not exactly what I am saying.

My point is that anyone "bullying" (not my word, but it will do) anyone on the internet is BS. How can you be bullied if you can easily avoid the person who is bothering you?

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

Anyone being flamed or insulted on the net can "toughen up" or they can just block the person. You don't have to read something insulting.

Of course, no one should threaten anyone else, but insults are a fact of life. And I agree that anyone has the right to avoid a place inhabited by people they do not like (BW employees as well).

However this statement I made

"Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something
that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult."

should have been clarified with the points I have made above.

thats ignorant and that way of thinking wont get us anywhere. People say the same thing in real life, bullying happens its just part of life and you gotta deal with it. Dont encourage that.

Instead of bringing bioware employees here to "face the music" why not get them here so maybe they can hear some real opinions on how to improve on the ending? hm

Not sure what part of my point is ignorant.

However, bullying is part of life and people need to deal with it. No one is doing a person any favours by preventing them from learning to deal with it. Adults can be bullied as well, they just call it management. I am not encouraging it, just saying it's best to be ready to deal with it.

Also, I did not say anything about BW employees "facing the music". Although I think it would be best for the company if members of the ME3 team were more active on this forum and answered some questions, I can see why they would not want to. I also respect their choice not to be here. However, I am fairly certain they are being discouraged from commenting and are being told to leave it to the PR people.

They can get opinions (if they want them) simply by lurking. No need to deal with the "angry mob".

[John Epler]

devSin wrote...

John Epler wrote...

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick.

Uh-huh.

"I learned to be tough" does sound more impressive than "I drink to numb the pain", I agree. ;-)

I drink for a variety of reasons, and numbing the pain is only one of them.

There's also the whole 'creativity juice' angle that I feel you've neglected.