339 réponses à ce sujet

[TK EL_]

John Epler wrote...

EvilChani wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

And it would help if the PR bullcrap wasn't, "We're awesome, you're stupid if you don't like our art, but we suppose we'll do a clarification DLC for you sense you're too stupid to understand our greatness. After all, we never promised a game that fit well with the other two! Instead, we gave you art!!"  

And I think, unfortunately, this is part of the problem. None of this is intended by the statements that have been made. No one thinks that you're stupid if you don't like the ending. There's a mentality of us vs them that's become rather prevalent, and here's the thing - everyone believes that they're a part of 'us', because who wants to be a part of 'them'? 

The thing is, if I were on the ME team, I doubt I'd be posting here. Not because I don't appreciate and care about our fanbase, but because whatever gets posted is going to be torn apart, and hostility found where none is meant. And interacting with the community has, by and large, always been a voluntary thing. There's nowhere in my job description that says 'MUST INTERACT WITH FANS'. Lots of stuff about design-related responsibilities, but I do the community stuff because, hey, I enjoy it, and I apparently have a healthy masochistic streak 

Anyways. Most of you remain civil and polite, and I very much appreciate it. Keep it up!

Honestly, from what I've observed, its mainly only the blatant PR responses that get torn apart and scrutinized as they almost always have a condescending undertone or some form of insincerity attached (patting yourself on the back for 9000+ perfect critic scores in a letter to the fans). In fact, most of the direct interactions that have occured like the guy who had a little Q&A with Mr. Weekes at PAX were well recieved and did this whole debacle more good than anything that has been done so far. 

[Cadence of the Planes]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

I think it's insulting to imply that someone being hurt by a personal attack makes them an eight-year-old girl.

Nice post. Also- sexy picture of Miranda

[Cadence of the Planes]

"Why are there DA mods in here answering questions rather then people from the ME..."

I mean is there anything else left to nitpick or is this all you were left to grasp? Do you also not like the BSN website design? Does it seem suspiciously similar to other forums? Where is the artistic integrity?!

[Isichar]

Grusome11 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Darth Spike wrote...

I think the reason is because they can talk to us calmly. The ME people are too afraid of getting flamed so the DA people have to answer the questions for them. A good majority of us don't want to flame them. We just want answers and not PR bullcrap.

Why would any adult be afraid of being flamed?

It's the internet. They can't see you, touch you or know where you live. You can ignore or block anyone you do not like. Back when I was growing up we had to face our bullies in person, where they could do physical harm to you.

Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult.

This internet generation is full of wimps.

Really? Your response is 'well who cares, they should toughen up?'

It's rather different when you're acting as an anonymous individual, rather than when you're acting as a representative of a company and using your own name. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is a silly response. There's a reason why the concept of 'online bullying' has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and I can tell you that I get my share of threats and personal insults.

I shrug it off because, well, I've spent enough time on the forums that my skin is reasonably thick. Others may not want to expose themselves to that sort of thing when it's not part of their duties, and I really can't blame them. It took me a while to stop taking things personally.

It's not as easy as saying 'well if they're adults they should just deal with it'.

Not exactly what I am saying.

My point is that anyone "bullying" (not my word, but it will do) anyone on the internet is BS. How can you be bullied if you can easily avoid the person who is bothering you?

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

Anyone being flamed or insulted on the net can "toughen up" or they can just block the person. You don't have to read something insulting.

Of course, no one should threaten anyone else, but insults are a fact of life. And I agree that anyone has the right to avoid a place inhabited by people they do not like (BW employees as well).

However this statement I made

"Anyone avoiding a internet forum because someone might say something
that might "hurt their feelings" doesn't deserve to be called an adult."

should have been clarified with the points I have made above.

thats ignorant and that way of thinking wont get us anywhere. People say the same thing in real life, bullying happens its just part of life and you gotta deal with it. Dont encourage that.

Instead of bringing bioware employees here to "face the music" why not get them here so maybe they can hear some real opinions on how to improve on the ending? hm

Not sure what part of my point is ignorant.

However, bullying is part of life and people need to deal with it. No one is doing a person any favours by preventing them from learning to deal with it. Adults can be bullied as well, they just call it management. I am not encouraging it, just saying it's best to be ready to deal with it.

Also, I did not say anything about BW employees "facing the music". Although I think it would be best for the company if members of the ME3 team were more active on this forum and answered some questions, I can see why they would not want to. I also respect their choice not to be here. However, I am fairly certain they are being discouraged from commenting and are being told to leave it to the PR people.

They can get opinions (if they want them) simply by lurking. No need to deal with the "angry mob".

They should not have to deal with been bullied over the internet period. People who cant understand this wont help the fans get anywhere with our goals and just make us all look bad. Part of been mature is accepting bullying happens, but its also realizing you dont have to accept it. They have no obligations to be here, yet we have this mentality that we should and can force them to listen to us. Your not convincing anyone to care what we say by telling them to accept the bullying because they know they dont have to.

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 04:56 .

[Dartbeast54q]

I've got a question for the DA mods since they are viewing this thread.

Why couldnt someone in the ME team come out and make a post/announcement saying that they cannot and will not release any details regarding the changes being made aka the extended cut until its released. Make it clear that everyone is allowed to speculate >.< but nothing official nor even to the tune of tips will be divulged from any sources whether that be twitter, here, or anywhere else that people who work on it can post.

At that point, wouldnt it be somewhat easier for ME mods, if they so choosed, to come into this forum and talk with fans/answer questions that do not relate to the ending? Since the point has been driven home that nothing will be discussed or reviled unless its ok'd by the head cheeses who are responsible for that.

At that point, that would null the existence of threads where people take a sliver of what a mod said somewhere and twist it into something to expect, or at least that would be the hope.

Maybe I'm just giving the emergency induction port grabbers here too little credit at twisting things where there is nothing there to twist.

[Grusome11]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

And, I am not criticizing any Bioware employee, but the posters who make comments such as "BioWare employees don't come here because you guys are too mean to them." I aW employees are adults and I think it is insulting to assume they are as fragile as 8 year old girls and can't stand anyone say anything "mean" to them.

I think it's insulting to imply that someone being hurt by a personal attack makes them an eight-year-old girl.

Really? An insult by some anony dbag on the internet? Why would you care what that guy thinks?

Besides, that was not really my point.

My point was that some posters were insulting BW employess by assuming that some of the posts by fans (some of whom could be considered anony dbags) were the only reason they were not on these forums.

There are a number of reasons BW employees might not post here, but because people might be "mean" to them is not likely the only one.

[Karmicmoogle]

what would it help if the ME devs answered questions in the forums? If they answered every question, what use would the EC be? We waited +/- two years for ME3 so a few months for EC wont kills us.

[Blind2Society]

Karmicmoogle wrote...

what would it help if the ME devs answered questions in the forums? If they answered every question, what use would the EC be? We waited +/- two years for ME3 so a few months for EC wont kills us.

I can't speak for the OP but I'm pretty sure people saying this are missing the point entirely.

[Isichar]

Karmicmoogle wrote...

what would it help if the ME devs answered questions in the forums? If they answered every question, what use would the EC be? We waited +/- two years for ME3 so a few months for EC wont kills us.

It already has hurt alot of peoples faith in bioware unfortunately. Alot of fans sincerly do not believe that the mass effect team really cares about the reaction. And a couple official bioware responses wont completely absolve that feeling. Im willing to wait but is a complete stonewall from the community really the best solution? I mean they would have to be very careful about what they said but it could help direct the conversation in a more posative way. Hopefully less "Everyone dies!" threads and such.

I dont think bioware lost many fans during that 2 year wait between ME2 and ME3 after all.

And it would really show that there are people from the ME team in here that are reading what is been said, even if they dont reply to everything.

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 05:08 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

There is no ME team, this was all contrived thru E/A and their marketting cronies.

[Grusome11]

Isichar wrote...
snip

They should not have to deal with been bullied over the internet period. People who cant understand this wont help the fans get anywhere with our goals and just make us all look bad. Part of been mature is accepting bullying happens, but its also realizing you dont have to accept it. They have no obligations to be here, yet we have this mentality that we should and can force them to listen to us. Your not convincing anyone to care what we say by telling them to accept the bullying because they know they dont have to.

People are jerks. No one "should" have to deal with it, but we do. Best to learn to deal with it instead of raging at how unfair it is.

Agree with most of your point.

However, I am not saying that BW employees should accept the "bullying". In fact, if you look at my replys, I specifically state that they should just avoid those who are insulting, etc.

However, I disagree that they don't have obligations. Their employer may require them to read/monitor/answer posts here. It doesn't seem to be the case at this time. Their obligations are dictated by their boss.

I did not try to convince anyone to care what the fans say. They can listen to the fans, or not. Their choice. The fans will then make the choice to purchase their products based on that choice.

[John Epler]

ohupthis wrote...

There is no ME team, this was all contrived thru E/A and their marketting cronies.

So ME sprung into the world, fully formed? Like a videogame equivalent of Athena?

That's certainly an interesting theory.

[Isichar]

Grusome11 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
snip

They should not have to deal with been bullied over the internet period. People who cant understand this wont help the fans get anywhere with our goals and just make us all look bad. Part of been mature is accepting bullying happens, but its also realizing you dont have to accept it. They have no obligations to be here, yet we have this mentality that we should and can force them to listen to us. Your not convincing anyone to care what we say by telling them to accept the bullying because they know they dont have to.

People are jerks. No one "should" have to deal with it, but we do. Best to learn to deal with it instead of raging at how unfair it is.

Agree with most of your point.

However, I am not saying that BW employees should accept the "bullying". In fact, if you look at my replys, I specifically state that they should just avoid those who are insulting, etc.

However, I disagree that they don't have obligations. Their employer may require them to read/monitor/answer posts here. It doesn't seem to be the case at this time. Their obligations are dictated by their boss.

I did not try to convince anyone to care what the fans say. They can listen to the fans, or not. Their choice. The fans will then make the choice to purchase their products based on that choice.

Then can we agree that the choice/decision to not be here responding can hurt them in the long run? And it is essentially (all bullying issues aside) in they're best interest to be in here?

[Grusome11]

Isichar wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
snip

They should not have to deal with been bullied over the internet period. People who cant understand this wont help the fans get anywhere with our goals and just make us all look bad. Part of been mature is accepting bullying happens, but its also realizing you dont have to accept it. They have no obligations to be here, yet we have this mentality that we should and can force them to listen to us. Your not convincing anyone to care what we say by telling them to accept the bullying because they know they dont have to.

People are jerks. No one "should" have to deal with it, but we do. Best to learn to deal with it instead of raging at how unfair it is.

Agree with most of your point.

However, I am not saying that BW employees should accept the "bullying". In fact, if you look at my replys, I specifically state that they should just avoid those who are insulting, etc.

However, I disagree that they don't have obligations. Their employer may require them to read/monitor/answer posts here. It doesn't seem to be the case at this time. Their obligations are dictated by their boss.

I did not try to convince anyone to care what the fans say. They can listen to the fans, or not. Their choice. The fans will then make the choice to purchase their products based on that choice.

Then can we agree that the choice/decision to not be here responding can hurt them in the long run? And it is essentially (all bullying issues aside) in they're best interest to be in here?

Agree.

It is always in your best interest to listen to what your customers (and potential customers) are saying. I would suggest that is why the DA3 team is here (any comments, John )

However, it may not be the best idea to engage those customers at this time. Based on what I have seen on BSN and twitter over the last month, it's probably best to keep quiet. If I worked at BW and was not the CEO, I would be keeping a low profile unless ordered otherwise.

[Schwegs]

John Epler wrote...

Thanks John, I read all your posts in this thread. You're doing a really good job here! 

I'm one of the senior software developers on a 30+ person development team at my business. We're relatively small, but still have tens of thousands of customers, and get many complaints.

There's nothing worse than seeing your hard work being called worthless, or even just going unnappreciated. That's why I don't recommend any of the younger developers go onto our forums -- they're just doing what they're told, and have no say, so it's not fair to them to get any criticism.

However, I have to respectfully disagree with the validity of *none* of the devs are posting. Maybe yours are different than ours, but if none of the senior devs are posting at all, it often means they don't want to accept the fact they were wrong (whether via pride, hurt, anger, etc). The official responses from the ME3 team appear to readily reflect this. 

It honestly seems that the people in charge of ME3 are in hiding from reality. There's been anger, defensiveness, and intentional re-direction of topic in almost every response from the ME3 team. I think that's what's most frustrating for me as a consumer -- I would much rather the response of "We're sorry, we wish we had made different choices", but it feels like the team is trying very hard to pretend that the consumers are not genuinely angry.

Modifié par Schwegs, 18 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[mirage2154]

Better loss one hand than both hands, If ME is dead, atleast they can save DA. The time to get so Reputation for DA3 team so people could pre-order the game. They just playing with your emotion guys! It's sickening!

[Isichar]

Grusome11 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Grusome11 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
snip

They should not have to deal with been bullied over the internet period. People who cant understand this wont help the fans get anywhere with our goals and just make us all look bad. Part of been mature is accepting bullying happens, but its also realizing you dont have to accept it. They have no obligations to be here, yet we have this mentality that we should and can force them to listen to us. Your not convincing anyone to care what we say by telling them to accept the bullying because they know they dont have to.

People are jerks. No one "should" have to deal with it, but we do. Best to learn to deal with it instead of raging at how unfair it is.

Agree with most of your point.

However, I am not saying that BW employees should accept the "bullying". In fact, if you look at my replys, I specifically state that they should just avoid those who are insulting, etc.

However, I disagree that they don't have obligations. Their employer may require them to read/monitor/answer posts here. It doesn't seem to be the case at this time. Their obligations are dictated by their boss.

I did not try to convince anyone to care what the fans say. They can listen to the fans, or not. Their choice. The fans will then make the choice to purchase their products based on that choice.

Then can we agree that the choice/decision to not be here responding can hurt them in the long run? And it is essentially (all bullying issues aside) in they're best interest to be in here?

Agree.

It is always in your best interest to listen to what your customers (and potential customers) are saying. I would suggest that is why the DA3 team is here (any comments, John )

However, it may not be the best idea to engage those customers at this time. Based on what I have seen on BSN and twitter over the last month, it's probably best to keep quiet. If I worked at BW and was not the CEO, I would be keeping a low profile unless ordered otherwise.

I cant help but wonder in what form the ME team gets the information from these forums. They say they are listening but I wonder who actually is taking down the information going through these forums, yknow combing it for the valuable posts and all. Do they see entire threads and posts or just points and bullets like on a checklist. Would the mods/DA team help at all with that or is someone else designated for that?

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[John Epler]

mirage2154 wrote...

Better loss one hand than both hands, If ME is dead, atleast they can save DA. The time to get so Reputation for DA3 team so people could pre-order the game. They just playing with your emotion guys! It's sickening!

If that's how you feel, there's not much I can say about it. But if this were true - why are they using a fairly junior developer to do so? Wouldn't it be far more effective to take someone senior and have them do what I'm doing? The only thing I do that differentiates me from a number of other people on the team is that I'm rather more vocal on the forums.

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but when you see a conspiracy in everything there's really not much I can say to change your mind.

[Isichar]

John Epler wrote...

I mean, you're entitled to your opinion, but when you see a conspiracy in everything there's really not much I can say to change your mind.

Reminds me of trying to argue with an IT believer. Its impossible and at best avoided.

[Pacifien]

I think part of the problem is thinking there are "ME" mods and "DA" mods. There are BioWare employees, and some of them volunteer their time to moderate the forums, and it just so happens that they come from the DA side of things because DA produces a) More Crazy and/or larger scotch budget. Some moderators don't even work for BioWare, but I can personally attest that because of the lack of a scotch budget, that the work isn't worth the vitriol.

Of course, I think what the OP was actually getting at was simply the developers in general participating in the forums, sans moderator title, and I think that comes down to lack of awareness by the forum community at just what a niche market the forums even are. Some people really don't like the forum environment. Some people really don't like *this* forum environment. Some people like reading what's on the forums, but are what we call "lurkers."

Sure, it'd be great if the ME developers hopped back into the forums again, like they did on the old boards. But I lurked in the old boards, participated in these forums, and then went back into lurk mode. I have no desire to participate here like I used to because I simply don't like the environment.

Of course, I'm not a BioWare employee, and the argument could be made it's a small sacrifice to make to traverse the hive of scum and villainy just so the fans can feel you're making a connection. But did I mention this was a niche market? There are other methods to show you're listening. You might hate FB and Twitter, but I'm afraid many live life at less than 140 characters and seem to enjoy it. Unfortunately.

[Allan Schumacher]

My point is that anyone "bullying" (not my word, but it will do) anyone on the internet is BS. How can you be bullied if you can easily avoid the person who is bothering you?

Just keep in mind that an effective way to deal with it is to not post. I had some horrific things said to me in regards to DAO and when you're not expecting it it's best to just take a break IMO.


I'll echo John though that I've kept posting because for the most part the community has kept it civil and fun, even if we don't agree on all issues. So props to them.

[Isichar]

Pacifien wrote...

I think part of the problem is thinking there are "ME" mods and "DA" mods. There are BioWare employees, and some of them volunteer their time to moderate the forums, and it just so happens that they come from the DA side of things because DA produces a) More Crazy and/or larger scotch budget. Some moderators don't even work for BioWare, but I can personally attest that because of the lack of a scotch budget, that the work isn't worth the vitriol.

Of course, I think what the OP was actually getting at was simply the developers in general participating in the forums, sans moderator title, and I think that comes down to lack of awareness by the forum community at just what a niche market the forums even are. Some people really don't like the forum environment. Some people really don't like *this* forum environment. Some people like reading what's on the forums, but are what we call "lurkers."

Sure, it'd be great if the ME developers hopped back into the forums again, like they did on the old boards. But I lurked in the old boards, participated in these forums, and then went back into lurk mode. I have no desire to participate here like I used to because I simply don't like the environment.

Of course, I'm not a BioWare employee, and the argument could be made it's a small sacrifice to make to traverse the hive of scum and villainy just so the fans can feel you're making a connection. But did I mention this was a niche market? There are other methods to show you're listening. You might hate FB and Twitter, but I'm afraid many live life at less than 140 characters and seem to enjoy it. Unfortunately.

Well its not just on these forums, basically anything that comes from a bioware employee is filtered. That been said I guess the DA team guys have just spoiled us a little with their responses=]

Well it may not have been their intention having bioware employees involved in the discussion has lead me to believe that having more communication with the mass effect guys could help them reconnect with the fans.

realistically I know that may not happen with them coming into these forums and engaging in wonderful discussion and speculation. But I can dream...

Modifié par Isichar, 18 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[SCJ90]

I just watched a trailer with most f the cutscenes from Dragon Age origins, what a nostalic moment, one of the best games, nad I think that the DA3 team is looking at all our feedback to, maybe improve and evolve on DA3. And maybe, the mass effect team is hard at work on something so they cant come here and talk to us?

Remember that BW said that the extended cut DLC would come out this summer sometime and that does'nt give them alot of time to do other things. I think that they are up to something.

[GuardianAngel470]

Pacifien wrote...

I think part of the problem is thinking there are "ME" mods and "DA" mods. There are BioWare employees, and some of them volunteer their time to moderate the forums, and it just so happens that they come from the DA side of things because DA produces a) More Crazy and/or larger scotch budget. Some moderators don't even work for BioWare, but I can personally attest that because of the lack of a scotch budget, that the work isn't worth the vitriol.

Of course, I think what the OP was actually getting at was simply the developers in general participating in the forums, sans moderator title, and I think that comes down to lack of awareness by the forum community at just what a niche market the forums even are. Some people really don't like the forum environment. Some people really don't like *this* forum environment. Some people like reading what's on the forums, but are what we call "lurkers."

Sure, it'd be great if the ME developers hopped back into the forums again, like they did on the old boards. But I lurked in the old boards, participated in these forums, and then went back into lurk mode. I have no desire to participate here like I used to because I simply don't like the environment.

Of course, I'm not a BioWare employee, and the argument could be made it's a small sacrifice to make to traverse the hive of scum and villainy just so the fans can feel you're making a connection. But did I mention this was a niche market? There are other methods to show you're listening. You might hate FB and Twitter, but I'm afraid many live life at less than 140 characters and seem to enjoy it. Unfortunately.

Long time no see Pacifien, welcome back to the world of mortals.

I agree, this board can be pretty hairy at times however in general (from our perspective) it's still a better place than twitter if what happened to Hepler is any indication.

I think the problem is that on twitter we get the runaround, on facebook we get the runaround, in actual press we get PR doublespeak, and here we get silence from people in the know. Frustration is not just expected at this point, its ubiquitous. Either you didn't mind the endings and are frustrated because you're reinacting the Skylian Blitz against those that disagree or you didn't like the ending and you're frustrated for a myriad of well documented reasons.

In this case, fans want a dialog with SOMEONE that knows something (because unfortunately Jessica Merizan doesn't count to our eyes) yet we never get it.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 18 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[Deemz]

SCJ90 wrote...

I just watched a trailer with most f the cutscenes from Dragon Age origins, what a nostalic moment, one of the best games, nad I think that the DA3 team is looking at all our feedback to, maybe improve and evolve on DA3. And maybe, the mass effect team is hard at work on something so they cant come here and talk to us?

Remember that BW said that the extended cut DLC would come out this summer sometime and that does'nt give them alot of time to do other things. I think that they are up to something.

Mr. Gamble did tweet that something had cleared QA today. Obviously not the EC but something new is coming soon.