210 réponses à ce sujet

[PaxtonFetel]

This is the universe of mass effect now

Modifié par PaxtonFetel, 18 avril 2012 - 06:08 .

[Torrible]

Banelash wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Akeotwawki wrote...

Well, finally, an end to the lie that a vocal 'minority' are unhappy with the ending(s).

How many people were in this poll again? how many users are registered on BSN? How many people purchased ME3? majority you say? lulz you can't put an end to anything without proof, proof you simply do not have

Its Dridengx the ignorant little troll again! A post with facts won't be the same without the ignorant little troll..

That's a violation of the site rules. Want to try that again?

Modifié par Torrible, 18 avril 2012 - 06:21 .

[Jagri]

PaxtonFetel wrote...

This is the universe of mass effect now

*Image*

Oh I find this picture misleading with this statement. Least the survivors can look forward to a timely rescue.

Modifié par Jagri, 18 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[Brockxz]

TonViper wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

I like the ending so do my friends that play it, only seen people on the internet hate it. i suspect half of those just watched it on youtube out of context. also i havent seen a consistent complaint about it just alot of individuals with there own ending

I, on the other hand hasn't found a single player in real life who liked it: I didn't like it, my brother didn't like it, and the guys who work at the gamestop where I bought it don't like it either.

Same. I have full friend list in my XBL and a  few friends in Origin and in some other gaming forums and I only have seen one person who says he wasn't disappointed but he said he didn't liked Shepard dies. For now I think that most of those who say they liked the ending are just trolling.

[AtreiyaN7]

Yeah, and where is this magical mystery poll exactly? *snort*

[Akeotwawki]

soulprovider wrote...

wasteland.........

see my sig it tells all

Thanks for the link in your sig,


This from a pre-launch video. At 2min Mac starts talking about how BW PLANNED to 'wrap up existing loose ends' through dlc. So the big announcement that they're going to create an extended cut, etc., was already in the works.They already knew there were loose ends. Makes me wonder....

Modifié par Akeotwawki, 18 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[StElmo]

Not sure if this has been posted, sorry if it has, but I really had to laugh:

[GuardianAngel470]

Torrible wrote...

Banelash wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Akeotwawki wrote...

Well, finally, an end to the lie that a vocal 'minority' are unhappy with the ending(s).

How many people were in this poll again? how many users are registered on BSN? How many people purchased ME3? majority you say? lulz you can't put an end to anything without proof, proof you simply do not have

Its Dridengx the ignorant little troll again! A post with facts won't be the same without the ignorant little troll..

That's a violation of the site rules. Want to try that again?

Alright, I getting tired of seeing this kind of discussion. Pro-enders: I have 62,962 people CONFIRMED that want a new ending (source).

If you're going to argue that my number is irrelevant because of a lack of a representative sample size, I'm going to argue that whatever numbers you present are irrelevant for the same reason. Any theoretical "silent majority" is baseless.

Furthermore, because we have a confirmed 62,962 people that disliked it and the game sold 1.3 million units, we know that ~4.8% of the fanbase disliked the game. So according to the 90%-9%-1% "rule" that would account for approximately half of all people that can be reasonably expected to participate on the internet (9% + 1% = 10%; 4.8% ~ 5%).

Unless you can prove those numbers wrong or prove that they are irrelevant, anti-enders still hold more basis than you.

But again, if we're arguing that one group of numbers is irrelevant then this whole discussion is moot. You can't prove to us that we are a minority and we can't prove to you that we are a majority. We have supporting evidence but not proof while you lack both. 

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 18 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[Zaalbar]

[/quote]
I like it 

[Sean]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

I like the ending so do my friends that play it, only seen people on the internet hate it. i suspect half of those just watched it on youtube out of context. also i havent seen a consistent complaint about it just alot of individuals with there own ending

Really?

EVERYONE I have talked to (that actually saw the ending) hated it.
They have said it didn't fit with the game, felt forced, was a copy/paste of Deus Ex (not an opinion but a FACT), a blatant lie (also fact, interviews spoke of the opposite weeks before release), and many other like that.


Also, I 100% my games so I get my money's worth instead of only beating 60% and shelving it.

[Zine2]

For the people who didn't read the article...

The poll was conducted by Bioware a day before the release of ME3, releasing the ending to a selected group. This is called a "test screening" (if we use Movie Industry Terms). Conducted properly, they will give you good feedback on the quality of your product, and help you improve on it.

In fact, test screenings have sometimes caused movies to change their endings. One example is "I Am Legend", albeit the new ending was arguably worse than the original one.

Which again shows how dumb the "artistic integrity" defense is. It's not a defense. It's an excuse for shoddy work.

[Akeotwawki]

The 'Let them Eat Cake' stunt was pretty funny. 402 cupcakes, with green, blue and red icing, and the letters A, B, and C on top! Glad kids ate them. Wonder why Bioware didn't want their employees to see/have them.

http://www.puresophi...-them-eat-cake/


Loved the "we're still listening" response. What exactly does that mean? They've said it several times, followed up with 'were not changing anything". So, what exactly ARE they doing?

[Liber320]

StElmo wrote...

Not sure if this has been posted, sorry if it has, but I really had to laugh:

I wonder how many poeple would buy the game if this was printed on the back of the box?

[Torrible]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Banelash wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Akeotwawki wrote...

Well, finally, an end to the lie that a vocal 'minority' are unhappy with the ending(s).

How many people were in this poll again? how many users are registered on BSN? How many people purchased ME3? majority you say? lulz you can't put an end to anything without proof, proof you simply do not have

Its Dridengx the ignorant little troll again! A post with facts won't be the same without the ignorant little troll..

That's a violation of the site rules. Want to try that again?

Alright, I getting tired of seeing this kind of discussion. Pro-enders: I have 62,962 people CONFIRMED that want a new ending (source).

If you're going to argue that my number is irrelevant because of a lack of a representative sample size, I'm going to argue that whatever numbers you present are irrelevant for the same reason. Any theoretical "silent majority" is baseless.

Furthermore, because we have a confirmed 62,962 people that disliked it and the game sold 1.3 million units, we know that ~4.8% of the fanbase disliked the game. So according to the 90%-9%-1% "rule" that would account for approximately half of all people that can be reasonably expected to participate on the internet (9% + 1% = 10%; 4.8% ~ 5%).

Unless you can prove those numbers wrong or prove that they are irrelevant, anti-enders still hold more basis than you.

But again, if we're arguing that one group of numbers is irrelevant then this whole discussion is moot. You can't prove to us that we are a minority and we can't prove to you that we are a majority. We have supporting evidence but not proof while you lack both. 

Irrelevant. Pro-enders never claimed that most people liked the ending. In fact, most of them are willing to admit that a significant portion are not entirely pleased. What they are challenging is the claim that most ME3 players (extrapolated
from the self-selected poll) hate the ending enough to want it completely rewritten. My guess is, pro-enders and anti-enders combined are the 'vocal' minority. Most people wouldn't care about the ending or the saga, or they may just brush it off as "just another unspectacular ending". Trivial fact: 70% of the ME2 players didn't even complete a single playthrough according to stats released. That says a lot really.


From another BSN user:

All forms of polls and/or measuring of peoples opinions are largely flawed due to the fact that you only get people with very strong opinions to answer and that sample are usualy in extreme bias for negative views. The data you get is at best qualitative rather then scientificly quantitative to make it short, select-answer polls are even worse since they can easily be used to "herd" people toward certain answers. You can't use a self selection poll to represent a larger population 

The biggest fallacy that I so far in this thread seen the "better ending" crowd fall into is the idea that if someone didn't like the ending we should assume that they would be in support of a new one. This is ofcourse a complete cluster**** of logic but it is quite common. It is similiar to UFO believers quoting researchers saying there has to be other lifeforms in the universe as proof that there have been landings on Earth even thought there is ofcourse no correlation.

It frankly doesn't even matter if 99% of people disliked the ME3 ending if there's only 10% of those actully want it changed and 89% that doesnt care. This gives us a *fact* of only 10% wanting a new ending and 90% who doesn't or alteast doesn't care. One can ofcourse argue that they wouldnt care even if there where a new ending and as such Bioware could make one anyway but that still doesn't mean that that group of people can be used as evidence for people wanting a new ending simply because they didnt like the old one. Quite majority fallacy isnt empirical(duh) and as such has no value. We only go after what can be seen and measured accuratly. 

Modifié par Torrible, 18 avril 2012 - 07:42 .

[incinerator950]

You know, I put more time into Morrowind alone then most people have put into the entire ME series for six years.

That's sad.

Modifié par incinerator950, 18 avril 2012 - 07:44 .

[Zine2]

Torrible wrote...

All forms of polls and/or measuring of peoples opinions are largely flawed due to the fact that you only get people with very strong opinions to answer and that sample are usualy in extreme bias for negative views. The data you get is at best qualitative rather then scientificly quantitative to make it short, select-answer polls are even worse since they can easily be used to "herd" people toward certain answers. You can't use a self selection poll to represent a larger population 
 

And that was clearly written by someone who never took a stat course.

Yes, "selection bias" is an issue.

No, it does not mean you get to reject poll data with a significant sample size because it proves your arguments wrong; especially when the presumption in self-selection is that there is only one side of the issue that is actively "skewing" the poll. We have seen this is not the case; the mere fact that YOU are posting shows that there are people who "like" the ending who are in fact participating and trying to skew the poll too.

Moreover, the Bioware poll noted in the article happened one day before the release. Hence it was almost certainly a controlled test audience study. The fact that it mirrors the results of the other polls so closely (over 90% unhappy with the ending) demonstrates that the sample size has in fact mitigated the margin of error to a sufficient degree for the data to be valid.

Conclusion: 90% of Mass Effect 3 players think the ending sucked. This is fact.

If you want to argue, take a statistics course first. Learn something before spouting dumb assertions like this. You are not allowed to reject real data just because it proves you wrong.

[TweedleDee66]

Is this for real?

When a film does a test audience viewing and they see that most of the audience hates something the director cuts the part out or films an alternate version of the scene.

So why the fu.. You know, I don’t care anymore. The more I hear about this ending fiasco the more I want to melt my Mass Effect 3 discs as an offering to the god of Better Endings and goddess of WTF.

[Torrible]

Zine2 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

All forms of polls and/or measuring of peoples opinions are largely flawed due to the fact that you only get people with very strong opinions to answer and that sample are usualy in extreme bias for negative views. The data you get is at best qualitative rather then scientificly quantitative to make it short, select-answer polls are even worse since they can easily be used to "herd" people toward certain answers. You can't use a self selection poll to represent a larger population 
 

And that was clearly written by someone who never took a stat course.

Yes, "selection bias" is an issue.

No, it does not mean you get to reject poll data with a significant sample size because it proves your arguments wrong; especially when the presumption in self-selection is that there is only one side of the issue that is actively "skewing" the poll. We have seen this is not the case; the mere fact that YOU are posting shows that there are people who "like" the ending who are in fact participating and trying to skew the poll too.

Moreover, the Bioware poll noted in the article happened one day before the release. Hence it was almost certainly a controlled test audience study. The fact that it mirrors the results of the other polls so closely (over 90% unhappy with the ending) demonstrates that the sample size has in fact mitigated the margin of error to a sufficient degree for the data to be valid.

Conclusion: 90% of Mass Effect 3 players think the ending sucked. This is fact.

If you want to argue, take a statistics course first. Learn something before spouting dumb assertions like this. You are not allowed to reject real data just because it proves you wrong.

You are the one who needs a reality check if you think 90% of BSN users who hate the ending automatically equates to 90% of all ME3 players hating the ending. You already admitted that self-selection is an issue.  Do you think that the people who come to BSN to voice their displeasure is a good representation of the ME3 consumer base? 70% of ME2 players did not even complete the game. Casual gamers seem like a better representation.

Besides, the poll questions are incredibly simple.
Other factors may skew the results:

-people who voted for the slim chance of Bioware panicking enough to offer a free dlc (they have nothing to lose by doing so)
-multiple accounts set up to skew the results, some may not even have bought the game
-pro-enders do not pass the link to the poll around social media, hate is a greater motivator.
-people who were previously lurking and hated the ending joined BSN to express their displeasure. Lurkers who liked the ending or were indifferent not likely to respond to the poll

Too many variables and uncertainties to make such a bold claim.


Edit: Only referring to the BSN poll

People who attended the screening are likely to be hardcore fans, again not a good representation of the entire consumer base.

Modifié par Torrible, 18 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[count_4]

Test Screening a game a day before release is pretty useless.
Is there any reliable source on this? I mean, I'd be happy if this was true but without any kind of source, it's hard to believe especially as it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Zine2]

Torrible wrote...
Edit: Only referring to the BSN poll

Which again makes your statement a complete and total waste of time.

Again: We already HAVE data other than the BSN poll, which has NONE of the problems you outlined. Survey says? 90% hated the ending.

Now, backtracking to the BSN poll, we find very similar results. Why? Because you completely and totally ignored the concept known as "sample size". We can, in fact, use the poll results from 1,000 people to project the opinions of millions of others within a specific margin of error.

The only way to impeach a huge sample size is to demonstrate - using other data - that it is in fact significantly skewed due to selection bias. But you didn't prove that - you only made unsubstantiated accusations while at the same time completely ignoring a different poll that showed very similar results and yet had none of the problems you outlined. Similarly, claiming "hardcore" or "casual" fans skew the polls is nothing more than more ubsubstantiated accusations on your part. A proper test screening would, in fact, include casual fans as much as hardcore ones. That's the point of a test screen.

In short, this is nothing more than you rejecting good data because it proves you wrong.  The Bioware Poll is assuredly clean and returned a 90% "the ending sucked!" result. The BSN poll's selection metholology has been called into question, but has a huge sample size to mitigate it, and having very similar results to the Bioware results merely further confirms its validity.

So again: 90% of folks who've seend the ending think it sucks. The ending objectively sucks. End of story.

Modifié par Zine2, 18 avril 2012 - 08:48 .

[Zine2]

count_4 wrote...

Test Screening a game a day before release is pretty useless.
Is there any reliable source on this? I mean, I'd be happy if this was true but without any kind of source, it's hard to believe especially as it doesn't make a lot of sense.

It's a game industry site (similar to Gamasutra), so I suspect they'd have good sources.

I agree though, a test screening that late in the cycle can be a bit useless; but given the other things we know about the ending (how it was apparently kept under wraps from the writing team) it frankly just adds more evidence at how poor the Quality Control was for the ending. No peer review, no timely test screening.

[Torrible]

Zine2 wrote...

Torrible wrote...
Edit: Only referring to the BSN poll

Which again makes your statement a complete and total waste of time.

Again: We already HAVE data other than the BSN poll, which has NONE of the problems you outlined. Survey says? 90% hated the ending.

Now, backtracking to the BSN poll, we find very similar results. Why? Because you completely and totally ignored the concept known as "sample size". We can, in fact, use the poll results from 1,000 people to project the opinions of millions of others within a specific margin of error.

The only way to impeach a huge sample size is to demonstrate - using other data - that it is in fact significantly skewed due to selection bias. But you didn't prove that - you only made unsubstantiated accusations while at the same time completely ignoring a different poll that showed very similar results and yet had none of the problems you outlined. Similarly, claiming "hardcore" or "casual" fans skew the polls is nothing more than more ubsubstantiated accusations on your part. A proper test screening would, in fact, include casual fans as much as hardcore ones. That's the point of a test screen.

In short, this is nothing more than you rejecting good data because it proves you wrong.  The Bioware Poll is assuredly clean and returned a 90% "the ending sucked!" result. The BSN poll's selection metholology has been called into question, but has a huge sample size to mitigate it, and having very similar results to the Bioware results merely further confirms its validity.

So again: 90% of folks who've seend the ending think it sucks. The ending objectively sucks. End of story.

The sample is collected in a way that a certain type of people are more likely to respond than others. Therefore it is biased. Extrapolation is only viable if the sampling is not biased. Therefore you can't extrapolate that data to the entire population. End of story.

And you have no idea what objectivity is.

[Zine2]

Torrible wrote...

The sample is collected in a way that a certain type of people are more likely to respond than others. Therefore it is biased. Extrapolation is only viable if the sampling is not biased. Therefore you can't extrapolate that data to the entire population. End of story

Again, pure speculation on your part. Show evidence that the samples are actually tainted by selection bias (the BIOWARE poll), or again demonstrate that you are nothing more than another charlatan trying to dismiss real data because you'd rather lie than admit that you were wrong.

And I repeat: SHOW. Don't speculate. Don't imply. SHOW the actual part of the data wherein there is selection bias. SHOW what percentage of a specific demographic that is not within the standard range acceptable for a random sample.

Do not lie. SHOW. 

And you have no idea what objectivity is.

Yeah, because your definition of "objectivity" is apparently "ignore evidence that proves me wrong".

Meanwhile, I'll be right here repeating that you are just closing your eyes, going LALALA over the facts, because you've never taken a statistics course, have no idea what a sample size is, and keep repeating complete and utter idiocy.

[incinerator950]

Zine2 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

The sample is collected in a way that a certain type of people are more likely to respond than others. Therefore it is biased. Extrapolation is only viable if the sampling is not biased. Therefore you can't extrapolate that data to the entire population. End of story

Again, pure speculation on your part. Show evidence that the samples are actually tainted by selection bias (the BIOWARE poll), or again demonstrate that you are nothing more than another charlatan trying to dismiss real data because you'd rather lie than admit that you were wrong.

And I repeat: SHOW. Don't speculate. Don't imply. SHOW the actual part of the data wherein there is selection bias. SHOW what percentage of a specific demographic that is not within the standard range acceptable for a random sample.

Do not lie. SHOW. 

And you have no idea what objectivity is.

Yeah, because your definition of "objectivity" is apparently "ignore evidence that proves me wrong".

Meanwhile, I'll be right here repeating that you are just closing your eyes, going LALALA over the facts, because you've never taken a statistics course, have no idea what a sample size is, and keep repeating complete and utter idiocy.

Dunno, I took a statistics course and so far none of these polls have a random population.  Infact, its like surveying a group of people who have been waiting for something for over an hour, unconfortable and asking how they feel.  As opposed to randomly surveying people every fifteen minutes, somewhere not congested.  

[Vergil_dgk]

Akeotwawki wrote...

Well, finally, an end to the lie that a vocal 'minority' are unhappy with the ending(s). Who cares how many "critics" gave it high ratings, especially since it's clear they're in bed with them.

Given such a glaring heads-up that there's a problem, you think BW/EA would have used this information to come up with a better response to the fan reaction. Another fail.

I don't know what's happening with that company, but 'artistic integrity' doesn't mean a whole lo to the company's bottom line. It'll take some effort to win this customer back. MHO


"Mass Effect 3's Ending Controversary is Actually Good for the Industry"

"...The day before the release of Mass Effect 3, BioWare leaked the endings
to its fans and polled them to gauge their reaction. Ninety percent of
users said "the endings suck." That's a pretty unambiguous statement...."

http://www.gamesindu...or-the-industry

You can fool some people some times, but you can fool all the people all the time - as a great man once said.