118 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

They also said:

All endings are possible in SP alone
We would not get an ABC ending
All questions would be answered (not lots of speculation for everyone)

So its not like theyre above a "reinterpretation" of prior statements

Umm... yeah. That was my point. This is asking them to double down on a strategy that isn't working well in the first place.

[Shadowbanner]

I've scored the game one out of five stars in Amazon and other sites mainly because of the bad ending, but not exclusively.

However, after I saw a video on you tube with the Indoctrination Theory - if proved correct - I would change 180 degrees and declare ME3's ending as hands down the best ending in all of Gaming history.

It would be shattering. But that would mean a ME4 would be necessary to give closure to the series, as you just can not leave a charred Shepard lying there agonising beside the beam.

Problem with this theory is that the Prothean VI did not detect indoctrination on Thessia. It sure did when Kai Leng came along. This by itself refutes the whole theory. As the game's lore explains that indoctrination can be either quick or slow and Shepards would undoubtedly be slow so as not to be turned a mindless husk.

And it would be the greatest fan trolling of all time. Simply a memorable ending that fooled - almost - everyone.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 18 avril 2012 - 09:02 .

[CARL_DF90]

Bioware just needs to pull its head out of the sand, admit to themselves at the very least that the ending as it currently is doesn't work, and that 180 you spoke of could happen. *crosses fingers*

[Swimming Ferret]

Rob_K1 wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Cadence of the Planes wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

Oh please, the Indoctrination Theory is just some fans in denial; they need to accept that the end Mass Effect 3 is just a plothole ridden mess and deal with it.

 

Yes, because how dare someone make a point you disagree with.

I mean really, the nerve

I love how people assume dissagreeing = being a ****.
Ah, BSN.

Haven't got much to say on this topic other than I believe the theory makes most sense and well, I've discussed it at length in the past. Pretty done with being on the forums and such until the extended cut is released.

Swimming Ferret,

The moment you said 'some fans in denial' is when you became confrontational etc. Just because some thinks it makes the most sense etc., it means they're in denial? I'm here, thinking the theory makes most sense yet I do not need to fathom it out to be at ease. Quite frankly, I just don't take this game or other games too seriously. So, I wouldn't label me and others with 'the believers are just in denial that the ending is crap'. Won't be as happy as I could be, but I'll also accept the endings at face value.

And just for the record, I do not know whether they planned for the indoctrination theory. I do know they said they'd tried to implement one element of it and not that they'd stripped it out altogether, when getting rid of that one implementation.

As someone has said, it is possible the indoctrination element could only be present in the Illusive Man segment. It is undeniable that it is present there at least. It could be that is the implementation they settled on and didn't intend to sow the seeds throughout the game for it. Again though, they haven't outrightly stated they got rid of it altogether and I fail to see how people get that from the Final Hours passage often quoted.

Regardless, that's all I've got to say up until the extended cut's release and I'm not getting into a sparring match.

I said that fans are in denial is because that's what I view I.T fans as; we have the endings. Bioware has made it clear they will not change them. If the I.T was in the game, hell I would be a happy panda. The end is complete sh!t as it is. However you can't impliment the Indocrination Theory without changing the endings, which Bioware has refused to do, so we won't get a change. The game ends as it does. It will not change, so I think I.T will stay as it is, a theory.

Soultaker08 wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

Swimming Ferret,

The
moment you said 'some fans in denial' is when you became
confrontational etc. Just because some thinks it makes the most sense
etc., it means they're in denial? I'm here, thinking the theory makes
most sense yet I do not need to fathom it out to be at ease. Quite
frankly, I just don't take this game or other games too seriously. So, I
wouldn't label me and others with 'the believers are just in denial
that the ending is crap'. Won't be as happy as I could be, but I'll also
accept the endings at face value.

You may not take it too serious, but others do.

When it comes to Indoctrinaction Hypothesis then the problem in discussing it is that most supporters take it as a fact.

The
reason why i dont post in the IHT mainthread is simply that they will
never accept what you say :/, so i keep posting in "sidethreads" like
this, cause its a more "chilled" discussion

This is, funnily enough, the first time I've posted in a I.T thread in BSN. I've usually stayed away from them because whenever I try to debate the issue, I get called a troll, a b!tch or someone who's just being a 'downer', by people who support a theory.

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

Arngeld wrote...

You
know something? I think I tend to side with the IT people because they
at least attempt to back up their assertions. Sometimes fairly
convincingly(thinking of the youtube video). On the other hand, every
"argument" against the IT I've seen pretty much boils down to "nuh-uh!"

My 3 year old could do better than that. Not much better, mind you, but better.

Quite
so. So far, the explanations that are not of the "nuh-uh!" variety that
are aimed at disproving IT theory are few and far in between.

I
appreciate those few people that actually commented on what they think
about what I said regarding the final loading screen, could we please
get back on to that topic instead of fighting over whether or not IT
theory is true?

So much drama....[smilie]../../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]

And you people call me confrontation and borderline rude?

Isn't I.T arguments based on 'uh huh! factz!' by pointing out plotholes and saying they have relevance to some hidden brainwashed plot that never shows up in the game?


Oh, and if you can't handle having your opinion argued against then don't post it. *This is to BSN folks in general*

[Unfallen_Satan]

Existing evidences already make for quite clever support of the Indoctrination Theory. If the last loading screen gives you more confidence to adopt that interpretation, power to ya. I hope you are not looking for someone to either affirm your belief or rebut it. Based on official comments regarding the extended ending, chances are high that IT will not be canon. However, it's also unlikely the DLC will invalide the theory.

Your point has not convinced me personally. There is insufficient definitive evidence for IT, and having seen most of what there is, I do not believe anyone can make any argument to convince me to adopt it. To each his own.

[ckolsen]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

This is, funnily enough, the first time I've posted in a I.T thread in BSN. I've usually stayed away from them because whenever I try to debate the issue, I get called a troll, a b!tch or someone who's just being a 'downer', by people who support a theory.

Soooo... it is the first time you posted in an IT thread in BSN (which this apparently have turned into now) - BUT you still have the experience of being called a troll???
How do you have this experience if this is your first post? :-)

but have you stopped and thought just one minute why people who support I.T are less than benign towards you? Perhaps another tone in your discussion would make people listen more to what you actually are saying? Just a suggestion...

I'll make it easier for you with some examples of the tone you are using:

Oh please, the Indoctrination Theory is just some fans in denial

Pfft, a bit hypocirtal right there, isn't it? You're parroting the same thing other IT fans are moaning about and I'm getting irritated with it.

I love how people assume dissagreeing = being a ****.
Ah, BSN.

It is not that disagreeing = being a ****, but they way in which you conduct yourself i believe.

Granted, these are taken out of context... but still

I believe you will get your point across better if you stopped and thought about the attitude and tone you are putting out there...

And just to be clear, I am NOT writing this to engage in a discussion on a personal level (you can PM me if you feel like) - I just had to try and help you. Take it or leave it be, fine with me :-)


NOW!

Back On topic :-)

As others have pointed out, there are others unique loading screens. However I do not remember if there are pointed towards the player and not shepard. If the last citadel screen is the only one in the game, that is working this way, then it is a very interesting idea... I just don't remember all the screens hehe... anyone have a youtube link?

[Swimming Ferret]

ckolsen wrote...

Swimming Ferret wrote...

This is, funnily enough, the first time I've posted in a I.T thread in BSN. I've usually stayed away from them because whenever I try to debate the issue, I get called a troll, a b!tch or someone who's just being a 'downer', by people who support a theory.

Soooo... it is the first time you posted in an IT thread in BSN (which this apparently have turned into now) - BUT you still have the experience of being called a troll???
How do you have this experience if this is your first post? :-)

...Cause there are other forums/websites out there besides BSN that have people who played ME3...?

That and I can't post in other forums here. EA dicks.

but have you stopped and thought just one minute why people who support I.T are less than benign towards you? Perhaps another tone in your discussion would make people listen more to what you actually are saying? Just a suggestion...

I'll make it easier for you with some examples of the tone you are using:

Oh please, the Indoctrination Theory is just some fans in denial

Pfft, a bit hypocirtal right there, isn't it? You're parroting the same thing other IT fans are moaning about and I'm getting irritated with it.

I love how people assume dissagreeing = being a ****.
Ah, BSN.

It is not that disagreeing = being a ****, but they way in which you conduct yourself i believe.

Granted, these are taken out of context... but still

I believe you will get your point across better if you stopped and thought about the attitude and tone you are putting out there...

And just to be clear, I am NOT writing this to engage in a discussion on a personal level (you can PM me if you feel like) - I just had to try and help you. Take it or leave it be, fine with me :-)

I wasn't being hostile; I was just pointing out how I felt I.T fans were acting, that is being in denial. Hell, I can understand that. I expected WAY more from ME3; I expected gold and all I got was a rotten piece of driftwood. I can understand wanting to hope there is something more in the game, but I just can't support a theory, especially after all the sh!t Bioware has been b!tching about and complaing about how stupid us fans are that we can't understand that awesome end and how it won't change. So it does seem like the I.T fans are in denial, especially after all the messages we got from Bioware.

That, and the OP was being hypocritical and parroting the same things as other I.T fans. I was just pointing that out.

NOW!

Back On topic :-)

As others have pointed out, there are others unique loading screens. However I do not remember if there are pointed towards the player and not shepard. If the last citadel screen is the only one in the game, that is working this way, then it is a very interesting idea... I just don't remember all the screens hehe... anyone have a youtube link?

Were is this Loading Screen? It's been mentioned quite a few times but I've never seen it. I guess my system isn't laggy enough for it to kick in.

[Grimgaww]

I'm sure that the extended cut will going to explain us about shepard
being indocrinated. If not i don't see how Bioware get them self out trying to explain us what's really going on.
What ever you read watch or think the catalyst scene cannot be part of the
game because  if it is, try to explain it without saying Shepard is
indocrinated.
The whole catalyst twist with the three options was artistically/emotionally amazing but it
 just doesn't fit ME series.

If Bioware will go with the indoctination theory (which i'm sure they are)  it will be more stupid than it already is.
Why? Because they will need to change also ME1&2 to make it reasonable.

The whole idea of this ending was to leave it with plots and questions so we'll buy the DLC
for the answers. I think Bioware got the oposite with this ending.

Modifié par Grimgaww, 19 avril 2012 - 11:14 .

[gabrigiov73]

Imo IT is a good way to explain the plot holes and i still want to believe it. The reason why Vendetta did not  recognize Shep indoctrinaction could be explained with the fact the Shep is not yet fully indoctrinated, she/he is still fighitng against it.

I don't know what Bioware will do, i like to give them a chance to rebuild the dream they gave us during 5 years of ME (btw i'm a disappointed about the fact that DLC will not include hours of gameplay).

Just a last comment about another IT evidence. Codex says indoctrination will lead to friends betrayal: we have a clear proof of this when we have to choose a renegade action to save Kelly Chambers...

Cheers!

[SubAstris]

Seems as though the loading screen bit was just for added tension and exposition, which is the explanation which requires the fewer assumptions (compared to IT)

[SubAstris]

gabrigiov73 wrote...

Imo IT is a good way to explain the plot holes and i still want to believe it. The reason why Vendetta did not  recognize Shep indoctrinaction could be explained with the fact the Shep is not yet fully indoctrinated, she/he is still fighitng against it.

I don't know what Bioware will do, i like to give them a chance to rebuild the dream they gave us during 5 years of ME (btw i'm a disappointed about the fact that DLC will not include hours of gameplay).

Just a last comment about another IT evidence. Codex says indoctrination will lead to friends betrayal: we have a clear proof of this when we have to choose a renegade action to save Kelly Chambers...

Cheers!

One of the big problems with IT is that it doesn't actually explain plot holes because it never distinguishes, and can never do so, between genuine plot inconsistencies accidentally put in BW and evidence for IT. As for the Vendetta thing, I think that is wishful thinking on IT theorist's part; a clear distinction is made between the indoctrination forces i.e. Kai Leng and you, the non-indoctrinated forces, Shepard and his party.

[CARL_DF90]

Perhaps, although after watching this vid from start to finish it has made me wonder.



If they don't use I.T. then they will have a great number of plotholes that need addressing. One of the main ones is how if it is not true, Shepard is still functioning normally after getting knocked by Reaper tech in the ME2 Arrival DLC, and for TWO FULL DAYS was being constantly exposed to the people and technology that causes indoctrination. There is no precedent in either the lore or the codex of someone being immune to indoctrination. Resistant maybe, but out right immunity? No. I guess we'll have to wait and see. I just hope Bioware remembers one very basic and important rule to sci-fi, or any story really: the details matter. If you ignore the details then you're opening yourself up for more problems. I'm trying to write a book and already encountering story problems I need to iron out.

[Yemmahogany]

did some mild research into the Indoctrination theory and I must say, it really makes me feel SOO much better about the "ending" of ME3.

Before looking into this, I felt confused by it, especially because Joker and Garrus said they'd be by your side till' death or victory, only to see Joker fleeing...

the Indoctrination Theory makes my opinion of the ending take a complete 180 and into the realm of an inspiring ending.

Modifié par Yemmahogany, 19 avril 2012 - 09:26 .

[Soultaker08]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

Perhaps, although after watching this vid from start to finish it has made me wonder.



If they don't use I.T. then they will have a great number of plotholes that need addressing. One of the main ones is how if it is not true, Shepard is still functioning normally after getting knocked by Reaper tech in the ME2 Arrival DLC, and for TWO FULL DAYS was being constantly exposed to the people and technology that causes indoctrination. There is no precedent in either the lore or the codex of someone being immune to indoctrination. Resistant maybe, but out right immunity? No. I guess we'll have to wait and see. I just hope Bioware remembers one very basic and important rule to sci-fi, or any story really: the details matter. If you ignore the details then you're opening yourself up for more problems. I'm trying to write a book and already encountering story problems I need to iron out.

First off , if you havent played arrival it didnt the f*ck happen in your me3 playthrough.

If you didnt played arrival then you lose War Assets in Me3,because Hackett lost Marines by destroying the Alpha-relay.

This is not any evidence or proof for IHT this is denying the facts that are present

My opinion on the videos:

1) Everything that could in any way support Indoctrination Hypothesis is picked up , even if  other explanations may fit better

2) Those videos are using cuts and sounds  and even the codex entry to suggest you that every scene they show would support IHT even more, in earlier times this was called propaganda, there are only few popular videos with a neutral view on IHT

3)To clutch at every straw:

1.Bioware has stated that EC wasnt planned (which means it is unlikely to be the reveal of IHT)

2.Bioware has stated that there are no other Ending DLC planned after EC (So IHT will never be revealed if not in EC)

3. Instead of thinking about this there are threads plopping up like this, which always end in great discussions or great  trolls, the official signs are against you.

Sometimes i feel like back in school when the teacher asked "what does the author want to express with the words" the sky was blue..."

Sometimes the sky is blue, because the author wanted it to be blue go* damn*d

[HighFlyingDwarf]

The indoctrination theory is impossible. End of line.

[CARL_DF90]

No, it is not impossible, & your Woo impression needs work.

[DownyTif]

There are just tooooo many hints everywhere to be in complete denial with the IT. The whole 25 minutes starting at the beam strike is just it, the climax and final try by Harbringer to indoctrinate you. Some people seems to think that the whole ME3 experience is indoctrination, they should check the 20 minutes video on Youtube. To me, the only indoctrination part of ME3 prior to the 25 minutes ending is the child plus the feeling of accentuated despair in the whole game.

Before wathcing the youtube video, I was depressed by the ME3 ending. Now I'm shivering at the potential. I sincerly now think everything is intended and the ending we saw is actually the third quarter of the game, the forth and final one is coming in a DLC (or more). That's the only way you can force a player to make choices and live with it (knowing the consequences) without everyone reloading and going in the same path. You let them think it's the finale.

Did they lied when they said that the ending would not be a A-B-C choice? I don't think so. Because we haven't seen the ending. Weird that the current one is EXACTLY what they said it wouldn't be.

Did they lied when they said that to achieve the best possible ending, you don't need MP? I don't think so. I think that the secret clip is just another hint of IT. It doesn't change the outcome, it's just a "preview" gift you get if you played MP. Because if not, it's impossible (remember what happens, plus the end of Arrival??? It's just impossible, except if you are still on Earth). That 4 seconds clip alone is saying a lot.

So, to me, the problem with the current ending is that it's too subliminal. Connecting the hints takes too much thinking and some are hard to see when focused elsewhere. Plus the rush to go forward and our impatience. EC will probably just make the connections easier to make and I would not be surprised at all to learn that it will be release exactly at the same time as the true ending DLC. But Bioware, that true ending DLC better be free, cause this will make everybody rage more than ever. If IT is true, I find the idea about the current ending clever and I'm really really impressed you pulled that off, but it's definitly too cryptic and subliminal. 

At this point I think we should just trust the Mass Effect team, because they always delivered story-wise. I think they know what they are doing and we are in for a big surprise soon enough. Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm currently REALLY ENJOYING the ending after seeing the IT video on youtube. I mean I'm just thinking about this, always. And I think that's what the Bioware intention was.

And if I'm wrong and the IT too and they did drop the ball, well I will just be depressed later. In the meantime, I'm having a lot of fun discussing it with friends.

PS: I would also not be surprised to see a DLC allowing option A and B (where C = destroy) to continue... Remember Paul Grayson? or even DAO Darkspawn Chronicles

Modifié par DownyTif, 20 avril 2012 - 03:35 .

[DownyTif]

Soultaker08 wrote...

1.Bioware has stated that EC wasnt planned (which means it is unlikely to be the reveal of IHT)

2.Bioware has stated that there are no other Ending DLC planned after EC (So IHT will never be revealed if not in EC)

3. Instead of thinking about this there are threads plopping up like this, which always end in great discussions or great  trolls, the official signs are against you.

From my point of view:
1- I'm pretty sure they thought the Ending was perfect the way it was. They left hints everywhere, hard to connect when being focused on what's going on. But because of the rage, they make a EC that will, I believe, just help connecting the hints.

2- I didn't know that. You have a source, link?

IT or not, I'm currently having a blast believing in it. That 20 minutes video on Youtube changed my feeling 180 degrees toward the ending and I prefer to believe in it. It gives me a much better experience. I'll be depressed later if IT is false and they really dropped it.

[CARL_DF90]

That's why I hope Bioware doesn't forget the details they left behind and doesn't drop the ball again.

[Soultaker08]

DownyTif wrote...


2- I didn't know that. You have a source, link?

Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future?

No.
BioWare strongly believes in the team's artistic vision for the end of
this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand
on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned.

This is taken from the Announcement section from the BSN , it is official

If IHT reveals to be true in EC, im okay with it

Else IHT is out k?

[EHondaMashButton]

Soultaker08 wrote...

DownyTif wrote...


2- I didn't know that. You have a source, link?

Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future?

No.
BioWare strongly believes in the team's artistic vision for the end of
this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand
on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned.

This is taken from the Announcement section from the BSN , it is official

If IHT reveals to be true in EC, im okay with it

Else IHT is out k?

http://www.penny-arc...t-surprisingly- 

Gamble also talked about the indoctrination theory, however vaguely. “The indoctrination theory kind of illustrates again how committed the fanbase is. The thing is, we don’t want to comment either way, because we don’t want to be prescriptive for how people interpret the ending, especially with the Extended Cut coming out. We want the content to speak for itself, so we’re going to let it do so.”

More clarification for the starclild, longer endings, etc. but I think they're going to leave whether IT is true or not purposefully vaugue, now that it's gotten so popular.  They tend to shy away from situations where one part of the fanbase would be left feeling they interpreted something the "wrong" way.

[Cypher_CS]

<-- 'nuff said.

[DownyTif]

Soultaker08 wrote...

DownyTif wrote...


2- I didn't know that. You have a source, link?

Are there going to be more/different endings or ending DLCs in the future?

No.
BioWare strongly believes in the team's artistic vision for the end of
this arc of the Mass Effect franchise. The extended cut DLC will expand
on the existing endings, but no further ending DLC is planned.

This is taken from the Announcement section from the BSN , it is official

If IHT reveals to be true in EC, im okay with it

Else IHT is out k?

Thanks for the info. I don't know how to interprete that. One thing I can say: I hate open endings to stories. It sucks. When I'm told a story, especially with the magnitude of ME, I expect closure. I don't want to make one in my head. Probably a lot of people think like that.

So I sincerly hope the IT is right... I'm gonna be depressed if not. I must believe!

[ladyshara]

Neat catch! I didn't even notice on my last playthrough. Tend to tune out loading screens. Not playing through to te end again until the ending dlc comes out but I might heck out on youtube. Linkage anyone?

I don't know that it's evidence or whatever but it's interesting. Starting to think maybe thy just didn't "clean up" very well after they scrapped their indoc idea. I wish fan theory was true though.

[KingZayd]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

You should buy the final hours app. Its available for PC now. It tells you a ton about the development. There was going to be a section where Shepard was indoctrinated and the player lost control, but it got scrapped because it was clunky. So that could explain why what's left of the ending points towards IT.

I think this will give you some much needed closure.

http://me3finalhours.com/

maybe: The section failed. They found another way (to implement indoctrination)
if not, then the endings are just terrible.