282 réponses à ce sujet

[FortunePaw]

Dear guy who hates other dear guys who hate vanguard,

Shut the hell up.

Thank yo-

[jaydubs67]

Hellgate Strife wrote...
Get me a vanguard who will listen and work in a team and the pair of us will wreak havoc.
Take firebase white.
If i sit up on the top above the ladder and he contains hes charging to the area down infront of me its great.
Hes got cover and room to move and charge as he pleases but also its a large area so i can let rip around him without him being in the way , stasis enemies behind him , weaken armored foes , stagger bigger guys , explosion groups of weaker enemies for him to finish off with a nova.
He can still play how he wants just in a smaller area and im able to very effectively support him and cover hes back from enemies that may get a good shot at him without exposing myself given that an adept is very squishy that means we can both use our ability's to a very high degree without annoying each other.

I will confirm that this is an excellent spot to work from.  I partnered here with a Turian sentinel rather than an adept, but same concept.  The only issue is that the person at the top of the ladder has to watch his/her own back, as that position can be flanked from either the interior building spawn or by units coming up on the landing pad.  

[Ni7mare Shadow]

How about everyone stops complaining about classes and works together to get the credits (the point of playing MP mostly)? Oh wait, sorry there I go again clinging to idealistic notions...

[Hellgate Strife]

Meh if ur in a team that talks ur fine more often then not ull find 1 infiltrator who also camps there and im also slightly paranoid about hunters or phantoms sneaking up on me so every 5 secs or so i do a quick rotation to check what position im in.

I think in the last 150 games maybe 5 times ive been caught off guard and never by a big mob so its just a matter of stasis . throw . laugh and watch enemy bouncing off walls.
Most gold players will have learnt fairly quickly to watch there backs you wont live long on gold relying on other people to cover you it can get to hectic so you have to learn to be aware of whats going on around you .

I used adept couse its by far my best class.
On any and all games im by nature a long range supporting player rather then a straight up killer.
I figure a killer is great but hes limited to hes roll and cant go beyond it but a supporter if used right can still rack up kills but can also do many other jobs .

Me and my friends favorite combo for gold is 2 adepts 1 vanguard 1 infiltrator usually 1 adept 1 justicar with offense bubble so that if it gets messy vanguard falls back onto us the enemy crowds in and we all know what happens when 10+ enemies crowd into an offense bubble with 2 adepts waiting for them .
It aint pretty but its dam fun to watch.

[Impulse and Compulse]

I only get annoyed when they die a lot or mess up spawns when I'm trying to snipe. If I'm mowing down in a killzone, for the love of god don't run in and kill them until near the end of the round, because you'll be over there, some idiot will come join you, and then next thing I know they're spawning ON TOP OF ME JESUS CHRITWSSDAFAEWFD

[Raseri]

Zenning wrote...

KalilKareem wrote...

My problem with vanguards is not exactly their performance, but the fact that they by definition sets the pace of the game and forces everyone else to play by their rules. For instance; two infiltrators and an enigineer are comfortable bunkered down in sniping positions waiting for the wave. But the vanguard just charges pushes onwards and fights the bulk of the enemies around a corner somewhere, cuz thats what he does. Now all the rest of the team will just have to;

a) Wait for him to die, which probably won't even happen on bronze/silver.
Run after, breaking cover and exposing themselves to flanking (which they, unlike the vanguard are not designed to deal with)
c) Just sit there unintentionally leeching

So, its not that the vanguards I play with are any worse players than the rest of us. But the vanguard class by design is just very frustrating and annoying to play with.

Final note: There are players out there there that are keenly aware of this and play their vanguard to avoid this (for instance, staying in cover until the wave approches and the helping their team lock down enemies or covering a flank). But they are in minority AND they typically score far worse on the score board by being "nice guys".

Why not look at it the exact oppisite way then?  classes like Krogan's, Vanguards, Batarian's, have to stay in one place because the Infiltrator, is better at staying in one place, and are not being used to their full effectiveness at all.

Sure, you need to change your play style, but if you're blaming the Vanguard for this, you might as well blame the Infiltrator for making the Vanguard, or other CQC classes stay back.

Agreed.  All the hate on the vanguard is because, if they want to, you know, actually play their class, they have to charge off into the middle of the enemy group to do their thing, and of course it messes up the shot of the 12 billion infiltrators/long gun users that infest the game.

[Raseri]

Impulse and Compulse wrote...

I only get annoyed when they die a lot or mess up spawns when I'm trying to snipe. If I'm mowing down in a killzone, for the love of god don't run in and kill them until near the end of the round, because you'll be over there, some idiot will come join you, and then next thing I know they're spawning ON TOP OF ME JESUS CHRITWSSDAFAEWFD

So, it's about YOUR convenience and not the good of the team, eh? 

[Phazael]

The selfish arguments pretty much illustrate why people are reluctant to play with VG, outside of bronze. You're response to people pointing it out is a victim complex. Yeah there are a few of you who are biotic gods and are an asset to their teams instead of wrecking them, but none of those guys are joining public lobbies. Like I said earlier, you guys should just group together and then you can all play Captain Jackass Novaguard without screwing anyone but yourselves. The sad fact is that deep down you all know the truth and you want other classes around to cover your mistakes and/or showboat in front of. The class basically makes people play like jerks, by design. I know, because I find myself falling into that behavior too, periodically when I bust out my Asari VG. Sorry, but not all of you are the Egg McMuffin of Vanguards, only very few of you.

[KiraTsukasa]

The thing I hate about vanguards is not vanguards, but the way the screen shakes all to hell whenever they charge, even when they're not near me. Which is a fault of the game mechanics and not them specifically. I always get flak when I switch away from my infiltrator whenever a vanguard joins. Well, what do you want me to do? Play a sniper and hope to god the vanguard never uses charge?

[Mx_CN3]

Phazael wrote...

The selfish arguments pretty much illustrate why people are reluctant to play with VG, outside of bronze. You're response to people pointing it out is a victim complex. Yeah there are a few of you who are biotic gods and are an asset to their teams instead of wrecking them, but none of those guys are joining public lobbies. Like I said earlier, you guys should just group together and then you can all play Captain Jackass Novaguard without screwing anyone but yourselves. The sad fact is that deep down you all know the truth and you want other classes around to cover your mistakes and/or showboat in front of. The class basically makes people play like jerks, by design. I know, because I find myself falling into that behavior too, periodically when I bust out my Asari VG. Sorry, but not all of you are the Egg McMuffin of Vanguards, only very few of you.

Interesting, where is your source of this "fact"?

I play a vanguard because I find it the most fun, the most challenging, and therefore the most rewarding.  And, last I checked, the entire point of having teammates able to revive is is to "cover your mistakes"?  So are vanguards the only class that dies, now?

And how does the class make people play like jerks any more than a sniper who kills everyone before other classes can get to them, or anyone that headshots the stasised person (or any other biotic combo setup), or anyone that shoots that person that the engineer was about to light up with a fire combo?

Vanguards can and do (sometimes) play as jerks, but they're not at all unique in that way.

[wsandista]

Phazael wrote...

The selfish arguments pretty much illustrate why people are reluctant to play with VG, outside of bronze. You're response to people pointing it out is a victim complex. Yeah there are a few of you who are biotic gods and are an asset to their teams instead of wrecking them, but none of those guys are joining public lobbies. Like I said earlier, you guys should just group together and then you can all play Captain Jackass Novaguard without screwing anyone but yourselves. The sad fact is that deep down you all know the truth and you want other classes around to cover your mistakes and/or showboat in front of. The class basically makes people play like jerks, by design. I know, because I find myself falling into that behavior too, periodically when I bust out my Asari VG. Sorry, but not all of you are the Egg McMuffin of Vanguards, only very few of you.

Snipers make people play like jerks because instead of providing cover fire, they hole up in a corner and fire at what CQC players are taking on. Then when they die because they have no backup weapon to deal with infantry at close range, it's the vanguards fault for not guarding them by staying in the corner. if your going to get down on one group for not being teamplayers, get down on every group who ruins a match.

[samb]

Phazael wrote...

The selfish arguments pretty much illustrate why people are reluctant to play with VG, outside of bronze.

My point all along.  Players are selfish, not just the vanguards, hence any games that invovle teamwork collapse.

......but none of those guys are joining public lobbies.

Because of your lack of cooperative spirit as pointed out earlier.

Like I said earlier, you guys should just group together and then you can all play Captain Jackass Novaguard without screwing anyone but yourselves. The sad fact is that deep down you all know the truth and you want other classes around to cover your mistakes and/or showboat in front of. The class basically makes people play like jerks, by design. I know, because I find myself falling into that behavior too, periodically when I bust out my Asari VG. Sorry, but not all of you are the Egg McMuffin of Vanguards, only very few of you.

Can't you just say you don't playing support and it isn't your cup of tea instead of insulting other players?  Calling them "Captain Jackass Novaguard" is just you illustrating your personal distain for them.  If you don't like them that is your own thing, but it doesn't change the fact that vanguards are a solid class and with the right setup can clear gold faster than a camping party.  Just say "I prefer to camp rather than run and gun with the vanguard" and save yourself the flame war.  Name calling really degrades the whole conversation.

[samb]

Ni7mare Shadow wrote...

How about everyone stops complaining about classes and works together to get the credits (the point of playing MP mostly)? Oh wait, sorry there I go again clinging to idealistic notions...

I sometimes wonder what the co-op in co-op multiplayer means myself after reading from these forums....
Glad there is another idealist here.  +1 cheezburgrz for you

[Ice Cold J]

samb wrote...

Ni7mare Shadow wrote...

How about everyone stops complaining about classes and works together to get the credits (the point of playing MP mostly)? Oh wait, sorry there I go again clinging to idealistic notions...

I sometimes wonder what the co-op in co-op multiplayer means myself after reading from these forums....
Glad there is another idealist here.  +1 cheezburgrz for you

+3 for the win!!!

[PROTOTYPE_ZERO]

A competent Vanguard is one of the best teammates you can have on Gold. However, most of the Vanguards I've encountered are not competent and usually charge off and die.

[Phazael]

samb wrote...

Phazael wrote...

The selfish arguments pretty much illustrate why people are reluctant to play with VG, outside of bronze.

My point all along.  Players are selfish, not just the vanguards, hence any games that invovle teamwork collapse.

......but none of those guys are joining public lobbies.

Because of your lack of cooperative spirit as pointed out earlier.

Like I said earlier, you guys should just group together and then you can all play Captain Jackass Novaguard without screwing anyone but yourselves. The sad fact is that deep down you all know the truth and you want other classes around to cover your mistakes and/or showboat in front of. The class basically makes people play like jerks, by design. I know, because I find myself falling into that behavior too, periodically when I bust out my Asari VG. Sorry, but not all of you are the Egg McMuffin of Vanguards, only very few of you.

Can't you just say you don't playing support and it isn't your cup of tea instead of insulting other players?  Calling them "Captain Jackass Novaguard" is just you illustrating your personal distain for them.  If you don't like them that is your own thing, but it doesn't change the fact that vanguards are a solid class and with the right setup can clear gold faster than a camping party.  Just say "I prefer to camp rather than run and gun with the vanguard" and save yourself the flame war.  Name calling really degrades the whole conversation.

I know you already know this, but if 5 other classes can work together without altering playstyle, but the addition of one class makes everyone else have to change the way they play, isn't the problem the one class and not the entire rest of the game?  And a group run and gun with people covering each other is a lot different than "Follow Captain Jackass around and hope he didn't leave any wounded trash alive to blindside me.." but I am sure you already know that.

Stop trying to apply false equivalency and address the original question.  Spefically, if there is no issue with the Vanguard playstyle, then why not just team with other VGs instead of complaining when people boot your from PUGs?  If there is no problem, then four on a team should work just dandy, right?

[samb]

Zenning wrote...

What the **** happened here? This was a semi-serious topic about vanguard hate.. And people used it to bash vanguards.

Seriously guys. You want to see a Vanguard who can play on a team? Here.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIUcH2ZBXpg

Notice how this is from the Infiltrators perspective?

Notice how the Vanguard and Infiltrator stayed together once the Phantom's started pouring in? Yeah, neither were setting the pace, they were working together.

And here's it not being a fluke
http://i375.photobuc...04-17_00043.jpg


Listen to the original post. You're not cool for hating Vanguards. And, if you're blaming Vanguards for setting the pace, maybe you should understand it works both goddamn ways.

No seriously.

Oh right.. And here's a team made around the Vanguard kicking ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfJhQ0vMqUU

felt it was worthy of another look

[Phazael]

I agree there are good team player VGs out there and, properly run, they are a huge asset to any team. The issue is that when you are in a public lobby and playing higher than bronze, running with a Vanguard (especially a human one) is likely an invitation to disaster. Other classes do not create the kind of issues for the team when played below average and are less likely to interfere with your ability to do your job. I think that fundementally, everyone agrees on this point.

The pro VG side of the argument seems to be "None of us suck and you need to cope with us." while those on the other side of the fence feel there are better uses of their time.

[samb]

Phazael wrote...

I know you already know this, but if 5 other classes can work together without altering playstyle, but the addition of one class makes everyone else have to change the way they play, isn't the problem the one class and not the entire rest of the game?  And a group run and gun with people covering each other is a lot different than "Follow Captain Jackass around and hope he didn't leave any wounded trash alive to blindside me.." but I am sure you already know that.

Stop trying to apply false equivalency and address the original question.  Spefically, if there is no issue with the Vanguard playstyle, then why not just team with other VGs instead of complaining when people boot your from PUGs?  If there is no problem, then four on a team should work just dandy, right?

You fail to see that your playstyle is not the only playstyle.  Other classes can do other things if they are willing, it just so happens you don't like that playstyle.  If you were just saying that rather than trying to imply that your style is the only right way and any deviation from that was a matter of perference that the matter would be closed. 

Just say: "I don't like to run and gun or play support.  I like to play how I play and that's how I will play" 

I don't play vanguard not because I get booted, or because there is something inherently wrong with them, but because I'm just not that good as one.  I have been practising by solo'ing and one day I will break it out on gold matches but until then I don't want to be a scrub.  I can certeinly support one and when I do my team does well when I do.

[kinglewy00]

ABjerre wrote...

Zenning wrote...

nwz wrote...

If a lot suck and plenty are awesome.. something is missing here

Not really.

If there are 1000 total vanguards, and 900 suck.  That's a lot. 

If 100 are awesome.  That's plenty.

It still means that there are 90% chance of getting a VanTard - thats plenty to justify bashing. 

this x100

[Schneidend]

Phazael wrote...

I agree there are good team player VGs out there and, properly run, they are a huge asset to any team. The issue is that when you are in a public lobby and playing higher than bronze, running with a Vanguard (especially a human one) is likely an invitation to disaster. Other classes do not create the kind of issues for the team when played below average and are less likely to interfere with your ability to do your job. I think that fundementally, everyone agrees on this point.

The pro VG side of the argument seems to be "None of us suck and you need to cope with us." while those on the other side of the fence feel there are better uses of their time.

I find a player's ability to adapt and make use of his squad's powers and playstyles is more important than their ability to camp. I'd rather have a Vanguard fly in and Nova the crap out of a bunch of Cannibals and Marauders I've staggered with Ballistic Blades than a hotshot sniper flipping out because my stagger ruined his headshot.

kinglewy00 wrote...

ABjerre wrote...

It still means that there are 90% chance of getting a VanTard - thats plenty to justify bashing. 

this x100

90% of everything is terrible, including Engineers, Adepts, Sentinels, Soldiers, and especially Infiltrators. Vanguards aren't special in this regard.

Modifié par Schneidend, 19 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[Dashmundo]

kinglewy00 wrote...

ABjerre wrote...

Zenning wrote...

nwz wrote...

If a lot suck and plenty are awesome.. something is missing here

Not really.

If there are 1000 total vanguards, and 900 suck.  That's a lot. 

If 100 are awesome.  That's plenty.

It still means that there are 90% chance of getting a VanTard - thats plenty to justify bashing. 

this x100

Calm: Quite simply, if you see a Vanguard HOSTING a game on Gold, with a N7 rank of 300+, he/she has probably played enough to understand whether or not he or she is good at being a Vanguard.

If you see a Vanguard join your game - i.e. not hosting - he/she is unlikely to be as effective as another character of the same rank, which is where you use your microphone and ask if he/she has another class.

You get bad Vanguards in bronze/silver, sure, but they do enough damage there not to matter. The issue here is "gold". The more games I see in Gold, the less I see bad Vanguards. If there's a Vanguard playing Gold, he/she knows he/she is good.

Do you disagree with any of that?

[Phazael]

samb wrote...

Phazael wrote...

I know you already know this, but if 5 other classes can work together without altering playstyle, but the addition of one class makes everyone else have to change the way they play, isn't the problem the one class and not the entire rest of the game?  And a group run and gun with people covering each other is a lot different than "Follow Captain Jackass around and hope he didn't leave any wounded trash alive to blindside me.." but I am sure you already know that.

Stop trying to apply false equivalency and address the original question.  Spefically, if there is no issue with the Vanguard playstyle, then why not just team with other VGs instead of complaining when people boot your from PUGs?  If there is no problem, then four on a team should work just dandy, right?

You fail to see that your playstyle is not the only playstyle.  Other classes can do other things if they are willing, it just so happens you don't like that playstyle.  If you were just saying that rather than trying to imply that your style is the only right way and any deviation from that was a matter of perference that the matter would be closed. 

Just say: "I don't like to run and gun or play support.  I like to play how I play and that's how I will play" 

I don't play vanguard not because I get booted, or because there is something inherently wrong with them, but because I'm just not that good as one.  I have been practising by solo'ing and one day I will break it out on gold matches but until then I don't want to be a scrub.  I can certeinly support one and when I do my team does well when I do.

The fact that you are practicing by soloing and you fail to see how this could be a problem when you suddenly have three team members kind of highlights my point.

I _DO_ play suport.  My AA, GE, and AJ are all specced with team friendly setups and I play them as such.  Its hard to play as a team, though, when one of the people acts like there isn't one.  Hint: Its not the other three guys who would be just fine with any other class.

[Phazael]

Dashmundo wrote...


You get bad Vanguards in bronze/silver, sure, but they do enough damage there not to matter. The issue here is "gold". The more games I see in Gold, the less I see bad Vanguards. If there's a Vanguard playing Gold, he/she knows he/she is good.

Do you disagree with any of that?

I do, simply because there are lots of people who either FBW famed through so many cards that they probably never leveled any of the characters they promoted or there are AFK leechers who chain promote to pump their N7 ratings up for epeen waving.  A person's N7 rating really does not mean much, once they hit 100 (meaning they have probably played all the classes and gotten a feel for how everything works) and some of the worst public players have 4 digit N7s.

Thats not a VG specific issue, though.  Its true of any and all players.

[Phazael]

Schneidend wrote...


90% of everything is terrible, including Engineers, Adepts, Sentinels, Soldiers, and especially Infiltrators. Vanguards aren't special in this regard.

Except the point that the VG4Life community likes to ignore is that a terrible member of another class is far less likely to pooch the run than even a mediocre VG on Silver/Gold.  A weak link in another class is a lot easier to carry through a round.  A crummy engineer that spent the entire game spamming chain OL is still contributing without dragging the team down, for example.  Thats not even addressing how lag and bugs affect the class, which is a whole other issue unique to VGs.

And frankly, no, there are a lot more terrible VGs proportionally than other classes, because the class is frankly designed around a certain mentality and requires more skill to play to potential, because timing and risk management are so crucial at Silver and above.  Its not like an Adept where you can just duck behind a wall and spam powers, or a soldier where you just follow people around and lay down support fire.  It requires a level of speed and skill that the bulk of the community is frankly lacking in.