282 réponses à ce sujet

[Achire]

The Vanguard solo reaper video is very impressive, but could probably be done with any weapon class using the Graal (Batarian/Krogan soldier, Krogan Vanguard) on FB: Giant.

Modifié par Achire, 18 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[bloodDragon80]

Phazael wrote...

Also, with regards to teamwork, who is being the team player? The adept who works out a rotation with the other adept or sentinal to chain explosions that drop entire groups at a time and cover the main approach to the camp, or the Novaspammer who leaves a trail of wounded trash behind, just so others can pad his useless score for him? As an adept or justicar, I immediately start working with any other biotic and infiltrators, even the terrible ones, will generally be doing damage to dangerous targets and not getting themselves into trouble. Neither are making the screen shake every five seconds, making headshots needlessly difficult.

thats the HV's job to disrupt enemies and take the heat off of the rest of the team not a bodyguard thats what the battlemaster is for. if a vanguard focuses on taking out 1 enemy at a time he dead.

[jaydubs67]

Achire wrote...

The Vanguard solo reaper video is very impressive, but could probably be done with any weapon class using the Graal (Batarian/Krogan soldier) on FB: Giant.

Agreed.  It's actually a pretty poor time in comparison to the other gold solo vids out there.  The only reason I even made it was because there's a thread every 2 days about how the class is bad in gold, and no one else had uploaded a video.  

[Rhaina]

Oh this thread again.

[bloodDragon80]

jaydubs67 wrote...

Achire wrote...

The Vanguard solo reaper video is very impressive, but could probably be done with any weapon class using the Graal (Batarian/Krogan soldier) on FB: Giant.

Agreed.  It's actually a pretty poor time in comparison to the other gold solo vids out there.  The only reason I even made it was because there's a thread every 2 days about how the class is bad in gold, and no one else had uploaded a video.  

and I salute you for it good sir

[Haed Shootar]

To be honest, the whole Vanguard-hate situation is based on the fact that they keep falling through the damn map!

Vanguards themselves are fine, yeah, some of them may suck, but alot of them can do quite a bit of work. The main thing dragging them down is the fact that they fall through the map almost every map...

[Achire]

jaydubs67 wrote...


Agreed.  It's actually a pretty poor time in comparison to the other gold solo vids out there.  The only reason I even made it was because there's a thread every 2 days about how the class is bad in gold, and no one else had uploaded a video.  

Very impressive feat in any case. What I'd like to see is a Geth or Cerberus solo video with the more typical spam charge/nova playstyle. Unfortunately I'm not good enough to do that myself. How much space did Fraps take for your video?

Modifié par Achire, 18 avril 2012 - 07:01 .

[veramis]

Haed Shootar wrote...

To be honest, the whole Vanguard-hate situation is based on the fact that they keep falling through the damn map!

Vanguards themselves are fine, yeah, some of them may suck, but alot of them can do quite a bit of work. The main thing dragging them down is the fact that they fall through the map almost every map...

Host, no more falling through map from biotic charge.

[Phazael]

jaydubs67 wrote...
Seriously, I would welcome a human soldier buff.  Hell, I've advocated for it.  What I am tired of though is the schizophrenic complaining, often in the same threads, that vanguards are both too powerful and completely unsuitable for gold.  Make up your minds about what is wrong with the class already.  

All soldiers need some buffs, especially the ones lacking dodge moves.  No one is going to argue that.

Vanguard are powerful.... in bronze.  The risk that even a good one carries is just too much to make it worth it in higher difficulty levels.  There are playstyles, particularly for the Asari and Krogan ones, that work in Silver and Gold, but the vast majority of VG players simply refuse to adapt to this.  Its partly due to the Novaspam pattern having enough immunity frames to make it work like Bronze in the earlier waves, before things start getting hairy.  At higher levels, Gold in particular, it is all about channeling enemies and the VG brings very little to the table for that.  Further, the OHKO enemies are the ones you want aggressively dispatched and the VG playstyle essentially requires you to avoid these mobs.  Aside from the stasis on the Asari, there is not a lot the VG brings to the table for camp defense that a soldier or sentinal cannot provide, without the constant temptation to go superman.  Toss in the bugs and lag, and why would people ever take the risk?

There are classes with the same issue in the other direction.  The Justicar, for example, is pretty useless on Bronze because stuff dies so fast that establishing the bubble is pretty pointless.  But really, class balance is only half of it.  We are not talking about a group getting by with a Drell Adept when an Asari would be better here.  This is a fundemental issue with the way people generally play this class making the game unbearable for everyone else who wants to work as a team and not simply act as Jackass Vanguard's fire support and medical team.

And we know you know how you are acting, too.  Nothing makes a VG drop from a lobby faster than seeing another VG hop in, especially a human one who is higher level.  When I see another adept in the lobby, I am thinking "cool, I hope they have explosions specced" and I immediately confer about who will use what power.  With VGs the mentality is always "I won't be the #1 scorer if that other guy is here!"  and I know this because I have been in all VG groups, getting trash talked because the only gold medal I got was for reviving everyone else a bunch....

[Gillityr The Original]

Most (but not all) of the hate on Vanguards comes from e-peen stroking infiltrators that think only a sniper should be in the #1 spot.

Jealousy, nothing more.

I have found that a fully mobile team that *follows* a good vanguard into combat an absolute riot and far more fun than sitting up in a sniper nest all day while the e-peen strokers lord their score over everyone else. The hate stems from the self-centered desire for everyone else to maximize the sniper's desire for perfect head-shots.

Anyone bashing all vanguards is merely showing how narrow-minded and self-centered they are.

[bloodDragon80]

Gillityr The Original wrote...

Most (but not all) of the hate on Vanguards comes from e-peen stroking infiltrators that think only a sniper should be in the #1 spot.

Jealousy, nothing more.

I have found that a fully mobile team that *follows* a good vanguard into combat an absolute riot and far more fun than sitting up in a sniper nest all day while the e-peen strokers lord their score over everyone else. The hate stems from the self-centered desire for everyone else to maximize the sniper's desire for perfect head-shots.

Anyone bashing all vanguards is merely showing how narrow-minded and self-centered they are.

well said but i hope you brought your shield

[LeandroBraz]

I only kick human vanguards because of the bug. You CAN'T play a human vanguard without being host. If I don't kick you, your char will get bugged, you won't leave the lobby so you don't loose the credits, I will be forced to end the match with a team of 3. I play with vanguards that are host, then I have no problem with the class (I use it too.. as host)

[bloodDragon80]

LeandroBraz wrote...

I only kick human vanguards because of the bug. You CAN'T play a human vanguard without being host. If I don't kick you, your char will get bugged, you won't leave the lobby so you don't loose the credits, I will be forced to end the match with a team of 3. I play with vanguards that are host, then I have no problem with the class (I use it too.. as host)

you can its just risky

[samb]

MetalMax210 wrote...

How the hell am I supposed to follow a vanguard if he charges across the map on the first enemy he spots and ,by the time I get close to his position, he already died and been curb-stomped?

When I support a VG I just keep them in line of sight and tag targets with set up powers.  A biotic explosion will at the very least stagger most of the horde, and in most cases sent them flying, greatly reducing the chance of them getting hit before the cooldown of charge.

Look a VG HAS to charge.  It is as much a defensive reflex as an offensive one.  It recharges their shield so they can stay alive.  If you are complaining about reviving them then you should not bemoan them for charging.  But you do illustrate a good point, a good VG will know who and when to charge.  A bad one will charge the first thing he can target.  That is the real difference between a good one and bad one.

[SiIencE]

It's fun on Bronze to get out frustration, charge into group, drop lift nades, gtfo!

But it get's boring after 2 rounds simply because u can't really setup BE's fast enough unlike Asari Adept.

[Phazael]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Phazael wrote...

Also, with regards to teamwork, who is being the team player? The adept who works out a rotation with the other adept or sentinal to chain explosions that drop entire groups at a time and cover the main approach to the camp, or the Novaspammer who leaves a trail of wounded trash behind, just so others can pad his useless score for him? As an adept or justicar, I immediately start working with any other biotic and infiltrators, even the terrible ones, will generally be doing damage to dangerous targets and not getting themselves into trouble. Neither are making the screen shake every five seconds, making headshots needlessly difficult.

thats the HV's job to disrupt enemies and take the heat off of the rest of the team not a bodyguard thats what the battlemaster is for. if a vanguard focuses on taking out 1 enemy at a time he dead.

Ok, here is where you are wrong.

Two adepts, specced for max explosions and working together blow stuff up in one combo.  No one has to go mop up behind them, even if they are focusing on a big nasty, because the collateral splash damage will take it all down around the main target.  If a lag spike occurs, well then re-apply warp or pull and resume spammage.  If one goes down, then they can do the exposion thing solo, if they need to, just much slower.  The lane is still covered.

Vanguard and babysitter are constantly leaving wounded trash all over the place (or sticking it in the walls with Nova knockback) and both either have to move constantly (to avoid the babysitter from getting flanked), or the VG dies to an ill timed grenade.  Or a lag spike.  Or a random "my nova/charge won't go off because of a map bug" thing.  The VG cannot hold down a lane because it takes multiple passes to wipe out everything with the damage gates and extra health at higher levels.  Those wounded guys shoot and hit just as hard as the fresh ones, by the way.  And there is nothing more hilarious than watching several VG play "pray the Banshee does not suck me in" when facing reapers.  Finally, none of the VG talents that are commonly taken have bonus damage for explosions that adepts do, so not only are you not really helping the adepts in the group, you are actually making their damage output worse.

Again, there are good VG out there, but they are very few and almost never PUG.  Anyone can carry a bad Infiltrator or Adept.  No one wants to carry even an average VG, outside of bronze.

[LeandroBraz]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

LeandroBraz wrote...

I only kick human vanguards because of the bug. You CAN'T play a human vanguard without being host. If I don't kick you, your char will get bugged, you won't leave the lobby so you don't loose the credits, I will be forced to end the match with a team of 3. I play with vanguards that are host, then I have no problem with the class (I use it too.. as host)

you can its just risky

risky for others. between a vanguard f*cking me and I f*cking a vanguard, I stick with the second..

[jaydubs67]

 

bloodDragon80 wrote...

and I salute you for it good sir

 

Thanks.  

Achire wrote...

What I'd like to see is a Geth or Cerberus solo video with the more typical spam charge/nova playstyle. Unfortunately I'm not good enough to do that myself. How much space did Fraps take for your video?

I sure wish I had fraps.  I'm using "Free Screen to Video."  Part of the reason the video quality is subpar is that the program doesn't have an option to record at the resolution I actually play the game and I end up with large black borders that I have to cut out.  It was a little over 2 GB in WMV format.  

If I have the time I'll see what I can do about a more traditional charge/nova video.  That wasn't possible against banshees for obvious reasons.  Godless Paladin was taking video requests in his thread as well, though he suffers from even more severe recording issues than I do.  

[Abrams216]

I have no issues with people playing as vanguards. However, if there are two Atlases and a Phantom in between me and the vanguard who tried to be cool by charging, then getting knocked down immediately by a turret, don't expect me to try and save them.

[Phazael]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Gillityr The Original wrote...

Most (but not all) of the hate on Vanguards comes from e-peen stroking infiltrators that think only a sniper should be in the #1 spot.

Jealousy, nothing more.

I have found that a fully mobile team that *follows* a good vanguard into combat an absolute riot and far more fun than sitting up in a sniper nest all day while the e-peen strokers lord their score over everyone else. The hate stems from the self-centered desire for everyone else to maximize the sniper's desire for perfect head-shots.

Anyone bashing all vanguards is merely showing how narrow-minded and self-centered they are.

well said but i hope you brought your shield

No one but VGs give a rats patoot about scores.  Its about clearing wave ten and getting paid.  Its not just the Infiltrators that hate moving around on Silver and Gold.  Adepts and Engineers work best when funneling opposition into firing lanes, because we lack the superman button to refill our shields when we mess up.  This is especially true when 1/4th of your team is not covering your flanks/rear as you advance, because they are off in lala land trying to rack up a score, in between you reviving them.

The only time a group should ever be moving around is for objectives or on the two maps that are designed for it (Glacier and Condor), and even then you are just moving your camp from one place to another.  The only time anyone should be off on there own is if they are kiting enemies away from the Extraction or Hacking objective.

[bloodDragon80]

Phazael wrote...

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Phazael wrote...

Also, with regards to teamwork, who is being the team player? The adept who works out a rotation with the other adept or sentinal to chain explosions that drop entire groups at a time and cover the main approach to the camp, or the Novaspammer who leaves a trail of wounded trash behind, just so others can pad his useless score for him? As an adept or justicar, I immediately start working with any other biotic and infiltrators, even the terrible ones, will generally be doing damage to dangerous targets and not getting themselves into trouble. Neither are making the screen shake every five seconds, making headshots needlessly difficult.

thats the HV's job to disrupt enemies and take the heat off of the rest of the team not a bodyguard thats what the battlemaster is for. if a vanguard focuses on taking out 1 enemy at a time he dead.

Ok, here is where you are wrong.

Two adepts, specced for max explosions and working together blow stuff up in one combo.  No one has to go mop up behind them, even if they are focusing on a big nasty, because the collateral splash damage will take it all down around the main target.  If a lag spike occurs, well then re-apply warp or pull and resume spammage.  If one goes down, then they can do the exposion thing solo, if they need to, just much slower.  The lane is still covered.

Vanguard and babysitter are constantly leaving wounded trash all over the place (or sticking it in the walls with Nova knockback) and both either have to move constantly (to avoid the babysitter from getting flanked), or the VG dies to an ill timed grenade.  Or a lag spike.  Or a random "my nova/charge won't go off because of a map bug" thing.  The VG cannot hold down a lane because it takes multiple passes to wipe out everything with the damage gates and extra health at higher levels.  Those wounded guys shoot and hit just as hard as the fresh ones, by the way.  And there is nothing more hilarious than watching several VG play "pray the Banshee does not suck me in" when facing reapers.  Finally, none of the VG talents that are commonly taken have bonus damage for explosions that adepts do, so not only are you not really helping the adepts in the group, you are actually making their damage output worse.

Again, there are good VG out there, but they are very few and almost never PUG.  Anyone can carry a bad Infiltrator or Adept.  No one wants to carry even an average VG, outside of bronze.

what babysitter? i'm not saying some one needs to follow the vanguard and i'm talking about host vanguard so there is no random bug or lag and again the vanguard is not for holding down an area yes he can do it quite well but he's not being as effective as he could if he were in enemy lines disrupting the enemies and taking the enemy fire from the team so they can take out the enemies easier

[bloodDragon80]

Phazael wrote...

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Gillityr The Original wrote...

Most (but not all) of the hate on Vanguards comes from e-peen stroking infiltrators that think only a sniper should be in the #1 spot.

Jealousy, nothing more.

I have found that a fully mobile team that *follows* a good vanguard into combat an absolute riot and far more fun than sitting up in a sniper nest all day while the e-peen strokers lord their score over everyone else. The hate stems from the self-centered desire for everyone else to maximize the sniper's desire for perfect head-shots.

Anyone bashing all vanguards is merely showing how narrow-minded and self-centered they are.

well said but i hope you brought your shield

No one but VGs give a rats patoot about scores.  Its about clearing wave ten and getting paid.  Its not just the Infiltrators that hate moving around on Silver and Gold.  Adepts and Engineers work best when funneling opposition into firing lanes, because we lack the superman button to refill our shields when we mess up.  This is especially true when 1/4th of your team is not covering your flanks/rear as you advance, because they are off in lala land trying to rack up a score, in between you reviving them.

The only time a group should ever be moving around is for objectives or on the two maps that are designed for it (Glacier and Condor), and even then you are just moving your camp from one place to another.  The only time anyone should be off on there own is if they are kiting enemies away from the Extraction or Hacking objective.

hmmmmmmmmmm


if VG's are the only ones who care about score than why is "they steal all my kill" the common complaint about VG?

Modifié par bloodDragon80, 18 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[Phazael]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

what babysitter? i'm not saying some one needs to follow the vanguard and i'm talking about host vanguard so there is no random bug or lag and again the vanguard is not for holding down an area yes he can do it quite well but he's not being as effective as he could if he were in enemy lines disrupting the enemies and taking the enemy fire from the team so they can take out the enemies easier

On Gold, especially, even a Novabomber leaves behind a lot of wounded enemies.  Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the One Hit Point Orc Theorem:

One Hit Point Orc Theorem-
This Theorem states that a one hit point orc can hit you just as hard as a fresh one, so its always better to keep hammering the same orc, until it is dead, before moving on to the next one.  In this way you not only kill the orcs, but consistantly reduce how much they can retaliate.

Its an old RGP axiom dating back to the 1980s Dungeons and Dragons era.  But, in a nutshell, what most Novaspammers are doing at higher difficulties is leaving a lot of wounded trash behind them in their wake that is fully capable of doing full damage, in response, should the VG have a momentary lag hiccup or charge not go off immediately due to a map bug.  Being the host does not matter, in this instance.  It could just as easily be a grenade that goes off the moment you pop Nova, too.  Its not an issue at bronze, because Nova does enough damage to completely drop most enemies around you in one go.  The Asari don't have the issue as bad because their AE mele has the same stagger as Nova and does not compromise their shields.  On Silver and up, though, the damage gate pretty much assures that anything tougher than a husk is not going to drop from just one Nova, so this makes the VG move around constantly and scatter wounded trash all over the place until he (or his babysitter) polishes it off in another pass.  Two (or one) adept chaining Biotic esplosions with all the damage boosts and AE options enabled do not have this issue, nor does the two button Energy Drain/Cloak/Snipe Infiltrator or Engineer.  Its a scaling issue unique to Nova.

[QCteamkill]

Oh look, dead vanguard, nothing to see here, keep shooting from cover.

[Phazael]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

if VG's are the only ones who care about score than why is "they steal all my kill" the common complaint about VG?

Because nothing is worse than setting up two or three enemies in a pile with Warp or Pull going, so that the adepts can set off a mass chain detonation that clears an entire room, only to have Jackass the Wonder Vanguard charge in with his non-explosion enhanced power, leaving behind a bunch of agro wounded enemies when one throw or reave could have leveled the entire area.  Or having a phantom I stasised knocked out of the bubble, very much alive and free to come rape me, after you charge and forget it.