282 réponses à ce sujet

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Phazael wrote...

DaftArbiter wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Shut the hell up.

Thank yo-

No, that'll get me modded.


Look, we get that a lot of Vanguards suck ass.  But plenty are awesome, so stop with the random Vanguard bashing.  Seriously.  You're not cool.

Thank you.

Yes, there are many Vanguards who suck, but there's people from all classes who suck. Blaming any one class for this is really counterintuitive, because not only bad players use Vanguards. Plenty of good novaguards, for example, team with other biotics to spam detonations, but most players just see a vanguard and think "CHARGENOVADIE! GET OUT OF MAH GAAAAAME!"

You just highlighted our point.  The entire rest of the team is playing supporting cast for this jackass.  Why on earth do I want a VG detonating my biotics when the actual adepts get tremendous damage bonuses from the explosions that can level everything in one go?  Show me the bad biotic or infiltrator who gets the entire team wiped because they went and died halfway across the map.  Show me any non-VG or Krogan who dies because they thought they could get away with meleing a Banshee.  Show me any non VG who gets the time wiped because they died to a momentary lag spike or grenade detonation.

A bad Adept is, at worst, an AFK leech.  Even a mediocre VG is an excercise in clenching your butt and hoping they die early, so you can still three man the wave before the spawn points get too dorked up.  This is especially true of the human ones who all seem to think they are invincible and ragequit the minute the team stops catering to their playstyle.

Have you never seen a Drell Adept or Asari Justicar team with a Novaguard before? It's pretty OP with area reave being coupled with charge/nova. Remember that no one can launch biotics like a Novaguard, so with Reave, they can detonate all the various enemies at once.

[sheltomlee]

When I play Vanguard it actually breaks the game, as in I start jumping all around uncontrollably and sometimes fall off the map or can't move right.

[bloodDragon80]

Phazael wrote...

bloodDragon80 wrote...

if VG's are the only ones who care about score than why is "they steal all my kill" the common complaint about VG?

Because nothing is worse than setting up two or three enemies in a pile with Warp or Pull going, so that the adepts can set off a mass chain detonation that clears an entire room, only to have Jackass the Wonder Vanguard charge in with his non-explosion enhanced power, leaving behind a bunch of agro wounded enemies when one throw or reave could have leveled the entire area.  Or having a phantom I stasised knocked out of the bubble, very much alive and free to come rape me, after you charge and forget it.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL wrong class buddy infiltrators are the ones that mess up BE
please show me where a single BE kills a room full of max health enemies. at least it gets detonated rather than headshotted

Modifié par bloodDragon80, 18 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[pprrff]

can't we just all agree that there exist different play style for this game, some of which you are not accustomed to but other people have made it work. How freaking boring would the game be if there is exactly one style that everyone plays, one class or build that everyone follows, and one set of weapons that everyone carries.

I don't usually play vanguard but friend plays a human vanguard, and when we team up we destroy everything in sight. Adept - adept - adept works fine, so does sniper - sniper - sniper, and vanguard - adept - sniper works just as well.

Admittedly there are just bad players and selfish players, but every class has them. I have seen snipers that refuse to move an inch and complain about why everyone else ran away when he gets surrounded by 2 banshee and 2 brutes, I have seen adept that rocked a widow and went a whole round without detonating a single combo with me, and of course a vanguard that charged everything in the room EXCEPT the one that I had warped.

So yeah, vanguard class is hardly the only class that people can **** up

Modifié par pprrff, 18 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[samb]

Phazael wrote...

Also, with regards to teamwork, who is being the team player? The adept who works out a rotation with the other adept or sentinal to chain explosions that drop entire groups at a time and cover the main approach to the camp, or the Novaspammer who leaves a trail of wounded trash behind, just so others can pad his useless score for him? As an adept or justicar, I immediately start working with any other biotic and infiltrators, even the terrible ones, will generally be doing damage to dangerous targets and not getting themselves into trouble. Neither are making the screen shake every five seconds, making headshots needlessly difficult.

First, this mythical rotation you are saying doesn't exist in PUGs.  I know, I have tried to set one up several itmes and no dice.  So please don't come on and say a pair of biotic spamming will work out a system in a PUG.  It doesn't happen.  And the bolded part is interesting because you are admitting that you can't take out a few half dead mooks.  Maybe your problem isn't vanguards but rather your own lack of skill.

Phazael wrote...
Vanguard and babysitter are constantly leaving wounded trash all over the place (or sticking it in the walls with Nova knockback) and both either have to move constantly (to avoid the babysitter from getting flanked), or the VG dies to an ill timed grenade.  Or a lag spike.  Or a random "my nova/charge won't go off because of a map bug" thing.  The VG cannot hold down a lane because it takes multiple passes to wipe out everything with the damage gates and extra health at higher levels.  Those wounded guys shoot and hit just as hard as the fresh ones, by the way.  And there is nothing more hilarious than watching several VG play "pray the Banshee does not suck me in" when facing reapers.  Finally, none of the VG talents that are commonly taken have bonus damage for explosions that adepts do, so not only are you not really helping the adepts in the group, you are actually making their damage output worse.

By babysitter you mean "teammate"?  I can see how your dissmissive attitude is hindering from seeing the bigger picture.  If 2 adepts are paired up they are working together but when an adept and a vanguard team up it's "babysitting" .  Your basises are quite transparent.  Nova with a power synergy charge does impressive damage(the go to evolution for novaguards), most will perish if the setup is done.  The ones remaining will be easier to take out, and your unwillingness to do this is just evidence of your selfish play. 

Phazeal wrote...
Again, there are good VG out there, but they are very few and almost never PUG.  Anyone can carry a bad Infiltrator or Adept.  No one wants to carry even an average VG, outside of bronze.

They don't play PUG because team work sucks.  Because of players like you.  You just proved my point.

[Zeroth Angel]

You know in ME3's MP you are supossed to complete the mission and not look over to some random vanguard.
They can be the best crowd controllers that the game has to offer.So really i welcome them with open arms and hell i even play as an infiltrator!
Besides i have played ME3's MP for a very long time and i have already experinced al these "annoying" vanguard experiences ( vanguard dying in the corner of the map, not being able to pull of biotic explosions,...) yet you don't see me complaining about vanguards!

[swjobson]

Zenning wrote...

nwz wrote...

If a lot suck and plenty are awesome.. something is missing here

Not really.

If there are 1000 total vanguards, and 900 suck.  That's a lot. 

If 100 are awesome.  That's plenty.

I think that is a gross exaggeration of the real suck-to-awesome ratio. 

[samb]

DaftArbiter wrote...

Have you never seen a Drell Adept or Asari Justicar team with a Novaguard before? It's pretty OP with area reave being coupled with charge/nova. Remember that no one can launch biotics like a Novaguard, so with Reave, they can detonate all the various enemies at once.

I feel like Justicars were made to support vanguards.  Everytime I see a vanguard hosting I pick her up and stalk the vanguard.  Reave from distance and when the vanguard has everyone's attention I run up and pop a bubble, then reave again or let the vangaurd nova for mega damage.  It's epic.

[Phazael]

@Samb-
I can turn on my headset and say to any random adept "Ok, you pull and I will throw, but if we see an armored enemy, I warp and you Reave". It takes exactly two seconds and I have never had an issue with anyone in doing this. Further, I have never seen anyone outside of Bronze who does not spec for maximum BE damage. The worst thing I have ever seen an adept do is AFK or spend all game with a BW doing nothing but bubble + headshot, and those people mostly have the common courtesy to stick to Bronze and don't actively bring the team down with them. Conversely, unless you know where the person playing the VG lives and can stab them in their sleep, there is no way to get a VG to behave once they start getting Novabell Fever.

My teamwork is just fine, even when I am on my Vanguard in Silver. I cover my team mates, protect the camp, and clear the fire lanes. I don't die away from the group and I don't charge a combo someone else is working to set up. Most importantly, my peen does not deflate if I am not scoring the most, regardless of what class I am playing. In fact, I have never been kicked... unless I logged into the lobby on a Vanguard by mistake.....

Again, who is being the selfish jerk if one person wants to play Score **** and pals, while the other three want to defend an area? This is the attitude that gets VG kicked from lobbies before the match even starts, specifically the idea that the entire rest of the team should adjust their weapons and playstyle just to accomadate one guy who refuses to adapt to the realities of Gold and Silver play.

[Ice Cold J]

People who play vanguard well are respectable.

Those who are terrible are a waste of a roster spot.

There is very little middle ground.

[john-in-france]

Phazael wrote...

bloodDragon80 wrote...

if VG's are the only ones who care about score than why is "they steal all my kill" the common complaint about VG?

Because nothing is worse than setting up two or three enemies in a pile with Warp or Pull going, so that the adepts can set off a mass chain detonation that clears an entire room, only to have Jackass the Wonder Vanguard charge in with his non-explosion enhanced power, leaving behind a bunch of agro wounded enemies when one throw or reave could have leveled the entire area.  Or having a phantom I stasised knocked out of the bubble, very much alive and free to come rape me, after you charge and forget it.

Ummm, are we playing the same game? Charge explodes Singularity and Stasis bubble. Depending on how charge is specced determines wimpy boom or big boom, same as Reave and Throw.

I often play AV, and I hate to say it, but most adepts don't seem to play well together...at least not on PUG.

[Wesus]

I just kick em in gold pugs, don't trust it however if i know 1 whos good i Will stick with him (aka 1 of my mates)

[Phazael]

Charge also sets off Warp, pretty much the basis for most Adept and Sentinal combos against armor. You probably don't notice it because you are too busy trying to line up something in the recticle to spam charge again. Also, Charge has precisely zero talents for enhancing biotic explosions, unlike Warp, Reave, Throw, and Singularity. Your only contribution to the explosion chain is the three target evolution, which may or may not trigger the correct enemies to explode, but never with enhanced damage.

And really, if two adepts do not work together (usually because no one has a microphone) on their BEs, at least they are not actively making the game worse for everyone else. A crappy adept can deal damage without getting in anyone's way or dying out of reach. They also don't wander off and screw up the way the spawns work.

It bears repeating, anyone can carry a crummy member of any other class, but even an average vanguard means a world of suck for everyone else.

[Zenning]

What the **** happened here? This was a semi-serious topic about vanguard hate.. And people used it to bash vanguards.

Seriously guys. You want to see a Vanguard who can play on a team? Here.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIUcH2ZBXpg

Notice how this is from the Infiltrators perspective?

Notice how the Vanguard and Infiltrator stayed together once the Phantom's started pouring in? Yeah, neither were setting the pace, they were working together.

And here's it not being a fluke
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo199/Rathore1/2012-04-17_00043.jpg


Listen to the original post. You're not cool for hating Vanguards. And, if you're blaming Vanguards for setting the pace, maybe you should understand it works both goddamn ways.

No seriously.

Oh right.. And here's a team made around the Vanguard kicking ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfJhQ0vMqUU

Modifié par Zenning, 18 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[bloodDragon80]

Zenning wrote...

What the **** happened here? This was a semi-serious topic about vanguard hate.. And people used it to bash vanguards.

Seriously guys. You want to see a Vanguard who can play on a team? Here.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIUcH2ZBXpg

Notice how this is from the Infiltrators perspective?

Notice how the Vanguard and Infiltrator stayed together once the Phantom's started pouring in? Yeah, neither were setting the pace, they were working together.

And here's it not being a fluke
http://i375.photobuc...04-17_00043.jpg
http://i375.photobuc...04-07_00001.jpg

Listen to the original post. You're not cool for hating Vanguards. And, if you're blaming Vanguards for setting the pace, maybe you should understand it works both goddamn ways.

No seriously.

Oh right.. And here's a team made around the Vanguard kicking ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfJhQ0vMqUU

that..........that was beautiful *sniff* 

[Distilled Poison]

It blows my mind that Vanguards are such amazing classes, and yet 95% of the people playing them can only think "I can charge ANYTHIIIING!"

Need your biotics detonated? No one is faster than the Vanguard.

Need a revive? The Vanguard can zip across the map in a second, and stop that trooper from stopping you.

Infiltrator not doing the target objectives? Vanguard is the next best option.

Crowd Control? B*tch please, enemies don't move till the Vanguard says so.

Survivability? Vanguard has invincibility frames and spammable shield regen.

And yet, 95% of Vanguards don't do ANY of that. They think they're playing a single player game, just with some people yelling about an "extraction zone" in the background.

[wsandista]

Phazael wrote...

Charge also sets off Warp, pretty much the basis for most Adept and Sentinal combos against armor. You probably don't notice it because you are too busy trying to line up something in the recticle to spam charge again. Also, Charge has precisely zero talents for enhancing biotic explosions, unlike Warp, Reave, Throw, and Singularity. Your only contribution to the explosion chain is the three target evolution, which may or may not trigger the correct enemies to explode, but never with enhanced damage.

And really, if two adepts do not work together (usually because no one has a microphone) on their BEs, at least they are not actively making the game worse for everyone else. A crappy adept can deal damage without getting in anyone's way or dying out of reach. They also don't wander off and screw up the way the spawns work.

It bears repeating, anyone can carry a crummy member of any other class, but even an average vanguard means a world of suck for everyone else.

Why don't you have a problem with the snipers that pick off enemies that you're trying to set off a combo with. What about soldiers who adrenaline then spray their revenant? How do you feel about enginers who incinerate your targets before you can warp them?

It's not the class it's the player.

Modifié par wsandista, 18 avril 2012 - 10:01 .

[Chromako]

It's about selfish players.

It's not the Vanguard class I hate. But statistically speaking, I'm probably going to hate the vanguard that's on my PUG. I've played with literally TWO good Vanguards, who were awesome. It's tough to play a good Vanguard, I think.

The issue is, in our effort to constantly save them, they dictate the pace and direction of the game. Want to camp out behind cover? We can't do that anymore. Aggro's in the wrong place, and we are down a player. Want to move around methodically as a group? Can't do that when we are trying to save him/her. Want to cooperate and set up Biotic/Tech explosions at precise times? Can't do that as the "bad" vanguard keeps blowing those up at the wrong time.

I can't count the times that I've seen a Vangaurd charge a Phantom or Banshee when she's at full health. And the vanguard gets instakilled. 

It's really selfish.

Selfish, reckless Vanguards I hate. Good ones are fantastic. I really wish I found more, because the statistics don't look good.

/rant

Modifié par Chromako, 18 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[Chromako]

Distilled Poison wrote...

It blows my mind that Vanguards are such amazing classes, and yet 95% of the people playing them can only think "I can charge ANYTHIIIING!"

Need your biotics detonated? No one is faster than the Vanguard.

Need a revive? The Vanguard can zip across the map in a second, and stop that trooper from stopping you.

Infiltrator not doing the target objectives? Vanguard is the next best option.

Crowd Control? B*tch please, enemies don't move till the Vanguard says so.

Survivability? Vanguard has invincibility frames and spammable shield regen.

And yet, 95% of Vanguards don't do ANY of that. They think they're playing a single player game, just with some people yelling about an "extraction zone" in the background.

This.

[samb]

Phazael wrote...

@Samb-
I can turn on my headset and say to any random adept "Ok, you pull and I will throw, but if we see an armored enemy, I warp and you Reave". It takes exactly two seconds and I have never had an issue with anyone in doing this. Further, I have never seen anyone outside of Bronze who does not spec for maximum BE damage. The worst thing I have ever seen an adept do is AFK or spend all game with a BW doing nothing but bubble + headshot, and those people mostly have the common courtesy to stick to Bronze and don't actively bring the team down with them. Conversely, unless you know where the person playing the VG lives and can stab them in their sleep, there is no way to get a VG to behave once they start getting Novabell Fever.

Whatever time you play must have better players or you live in a fantasy (that you made up to win an internet arguement), because I tried to do exactly that several times and they either tell me to stop ruining there setups of just not do it.  Or worse, they don't even know what a biotic explosion is (look mom, other classes can be played badly too!).

I specifically say: "Please detonate my reaves and bubbles" and nothing happens.  This has been since launch and it is the reason I frist even brought up the example.  Team work just sucks, why does camping work in gold? It requires almost no communication, that's why.  It's easy mode.  Sit in your cornor and fire, spam powers, turn off brain and mindlessly grind.  Nothing wrong with this, since like I said before, team work sucks and this is the alternative that we have come up with. 

My teamwork is just fine, even when I am on my Vanguard in Silver. I cover my team mates, protect the camp, and clear the fire lanes. I don't die away from the group and I don't charge a combo someone else is working to set up. Most importantly, my peen does not deflate if I am not scoring the most, regardless of what class I am playing. In fact, I have never been kicked... unless I logged into the lobby on a Vanguard by mistake.....

Threatening to kill someone for playing a game in a way you don't like sounds extreme... and reportable?

Again, who is being the selfish jerk if one person wants to play Score **** and pals, while the other three want to defend an area? This is the attitude that gets VG kicked from lobbies before the match even starts, specifically the idea that the entire rest of the team should adjust their weapons and playstyle just to accomadate one guy who refuses to adapt to the realities of Gold and Silver play.

What world do you live in?  It's everyone else that complains about "kill stealing" from vanguards.  No the way vanguards work is not conductive of camping, it is the opposite of camping.  It's dynamic and fun.  Camping i, like I said for different classes and easy mode.  You basically state you are not a team player, many times now.  You try to demonize vangaurds to justify your refusal to help them when in fact there is nothing wrong with them.   You could just say: "I just like to camp and keep it safe, vanguards don't suit my style" instead you say vanguards deserve death, are selfish, etc etc.  I don't agree with your generalizations.  I don't think the majority of vanguards suck, but I do think most people are narrow minded and only think camping is the only way to clear gold.

[Captain Hammer]

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

Modifié par Captain Hammer, 18 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[sliverofamoon]

wsandista wrote...

Phazael wrote...

Charge also sets off Warp, pretty much the basis for most Adept and Sentinal combos against armor. You probably don't notice it because you are too busy trying to line up something in the recticle to spam charge again. Also, Charge has precisely zero talents for enhancing biotic explosions, unlike Warp, Reave, Throw, and Singularity. Your only contribution to the explosion chain is the three target evolution, which may or may not trigger the correct enemies to explode, but never with enhanced damage.

And really, if two adepts do not work together (usually because no one has a microphone) on their BEs, at least they are not actively making the game worse for everyone else. A crappy adept can deal damage without getting in anyone's way or dying out of reach. They also don't wander off and screw up the way the spawns work.

It bears repeating, anyone can carry a crummy member of any other class, but even an average vanguard means a world of suck for everyone else.

Why don't you have a problem with the snipers that pick off enemies that you're trying to set off a combo with. What about soldiers who adrenaline then spray their revenant? How do you feel about enginers who incinerate your targets before you can warp them?

It's not the class it's the player.

Yep. Agreed 100%. Lovely to have a good BE set up on a group of enemies, and you see that lovely bullet wiz in and smack with a leg, arm, or body shot on your target, or Overload start buzzing your target. When I feel like playing an Infiltrator, and a Vanguard joins the lobby, I change from my BW Sniper, to my HI Shotgunner, and it works great. No complaints on either end.

[bloodDragon80]

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

umm.... what...

[Kenaras]

Phazael wrote...

Charge also sets off Warp, pretty much the basis for most Adept and Sentinal combos against armor. You probably don't notice it because you are too busy trying to line up something in the recticle to spam charge again. Also, Charge has precisely zero talents for enhancing biotic explosions, unlike Warp, Reave, Throw, and Singularity. Your only contribution to the explosion chain is the three target evolution, which may or may not trigger the correct enemies to explode, but never with enhanced damage.

Reave has zero talents which enhance biotic explosions.  Now, since this is obviously such a big issue for you, I expect you to start bashing all the Drell Adepts and Asari Justicars who screw up your biotic explosions by using Reave.  Right?

Or maybe you could try being honest with yourself, and realize that this isn't actually an issue in the slightest.  It's a rationalization to help justify your dislike of Vanguards, nothing more.  What's more, it's a bad rationalization, because even without enhanced explosions a Vanguard assisting Adepts to detonate combos will deal significantly more damage than the Adepts alone would deal.

Modifié par Kenaras, 18 avril 2012 - 10:27 .

[Captain Hammer]

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

umm.... what...

Oh, crap, I didn't put a comparison. Sorry. Normal failure chance for a gold group is about 15%.