282 réponses à ce sujet

[bloodDragon80]

Captain Hammer wrote...

bloodDragon80 wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

umm.... what...

Oh, crap, I didn't put a comparison. Sorry. Normal failure chance for a gold group is about 15%.

yeah...that...uh was totally it <_<

[samb]

Chromako wrote...

It's about selfish players.

My point all along but I think you are talking about selfish vangaurds.  But that's fine, since selfish vanguards exist as well.

It's not the Vanguard class I hate. But statistically speaking, I'm probably going to hate the vanguard that's on my PUG. I've played with literally TWO good Vanguards, who were awesome. It's tough to play a good Vanguard, I think.

I rarely play vanguard in MP.  I know it's arse hard to play.  It's not just pressing two botton (as if other classes aren't mashing the same 2-3 bottons), it's knowing when and who to charge.  Use nova cancel or nova right away?  And unlike in SP where you can open the power wheel to pause and look around, you only have the few invincible frames of nova to do so on MP.  It's hard and from what I see on these broads very thankless.

The issue is, in our effort to constantly save them, they dictate the pace and direction of the game. Want to camp out behind cover? We can't do that anymore. Aggro's in the wrong place, and we are down a player. Want to move around methodically as a group? Can't do that when we are trying to save him/her. Want to cooperate and set up Biotic/Tech explosions at precise times? Can't do that as the "bad" vanguard keeps blowing those up at the wrong time.

Yes they dictate the pace of your squad or two man team to a degree.  A good VG will wait till you tag targets before they do their thing, so in that regrad you have control.  If you were methodically trailing him then reviving him shouldn't be a problem right?  Any why would you have a problem with letting nova and charge detonate for you?  If anything that is what they do best, and faster than if you do it yourself.  Just that statement tells me you don't really know how vangaurds play and quite frankly don't want to learn.

I can't count the times that I've seen a Vangaurd charge a Phantom or Banshee when she's at full health. And the vanguard gets instakilled. 

Waht????? I charge phantoms all the time when I solo silver.  They go down fast.  Charge, nova cancel backwards, nova, charge and nova right afterwards.  Dead space ninja.  It's turrets that are the bane of all novaguards (shudder).

It's really selfish.

Selfish, reckless Vanguards I hate. Good ones are fantastic. I really wish I found more, because the statistics don't look good.

/rant

Yes many are selfish, and it's just a selfish community.  Both comtribute to the low esteem that the vanguard is held in.  It has great vanguards hiding in rooms for only their friends and away from PUGs.

[Zenning]

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

Err.. I just used it.

They won 100% of the time with Vanguards..

[Captain Hammer]

Zenning wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

Err.. I just used it.

They won 100% of the time with Vanguards..

What filter settings are you using? You have to set up a filter for all 4 characters, select each one as vanguard and then choose "or" filter logic.

[BoomDynamite]

I knick all non-asari/krogan vanguards (On gold and Silver).

[astheoceansblue]

samb wrote...
Waht????? I charge phantoms all the time when I solo silver.  They go down fast.  Charge, nova cancel backwards, nova, charge and nova right afterwards.  Dead space ninja.  It's turrets that are the bane of all novaguards (shudder).
.

Banshees have seemingly picked up a nasty habit in Gold: snatching you directly out of  your charge. I even had one grab me during a nova-cancel roll in the invinci-frame, but I put that down to a laggy game.

Still, lag makes them even more dangeorus.

[Phazael]

sliverofamoon wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Phazael wrote...

Charge also sets off Warp, pretty much the basis for most Adept and Sentinal combos against armor. You probably don't notice it because you are too busy trying to line up something in the recticle to spam charge again. Also, Charge has precisely zero talents for enhancing biotic explosions, unlike Warp, Reave, Throw, and Singularity. Your only contribution to the explosion chain is the three target evolution, which may or may not trigger the correct enemies to explode, but never with enhanced damage.

And really, if two adepts do not work together (usually because no one has a microphone) on their BEs, at least they are not actively making the game worse for everyone else. A crappy adept can deal damage without getting in anyone's way or dying out of reach. They also don't wander off and screw up the way the spawns work.

It bears repeating, anyone can carry a crummy member of any other class, but even an average vanguard means a world of suck for everyone else.

Why don't you have a problem with the snipers that pick off enemies that you're trying to set off a combo with. What about soldiers who adrenaline then spray their revenant? How do you feel about enginers who incinerate your targets before you can warp them?

It's not the class it's the player.

Yep. Agreed 100%. Lovely to have a good BE set up on a group of enemies, and you see that lovely bullet wiz in and smack with a leg, arm, or body shot on your target, or Overload start buzzing your target. When I feel like playing an Infiltrator, and a Vanguard joins the lobby, I change from my BW Sniper, to my HI Shotgunner, and it works great. No complaints on either end.

Most Infiltrators (or anyone with a sniper weapon) actually look at the target before they mash the button, even the average ones.  They also tend to focus on the big targets, which does not mess with what the biotics or other techs are doing.  Furthermore, they do not wander off.  Engineers, at worse, force you to double throw to set off your explosion, which is a mild inconvenience.  They also stick with the group.  Nor do either (or any other non VG class) make people have to conform to them to play. 

Seriously, has anyone ever jumped in a lobby and seen an Infiltrator and though to themselves "well, I better play X class instead, because otherwise I am not going to be useful/its going to be a rough game" ?   The minute you get one Vanguard in the room you can practically hear the sound of bungholes tightening in the room as everyone scans the persons gear and starts deciding whether to switch characters or just hop to another lobby.

You keep saying its not the class its not the player, and I agree.  But I also keep saying that a poor adept won't sink a team like even an average Vanguard will, even if you ignore the bugs, which you guys all keep ignoring in favor of the strawman arguments.  Yeah there are bad players of every class, but none of them can sink a team faster than a VG, who's very playstyle runs contradictory to what nearly every other class is trying to do.  An average player of any other class can make it through the round without sinking his team, sometimes even a poor one.  An average Vanguard is a one way ticket on the failboat for any group above bronze.

[Zenning]

Captain Hammer wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

Err.. I just used it.

They won 100% of the time with Vanguards..

What filter settings are you using? You have to set up a filter for all 4 characters, select each one as vanguard and then choose "or" filter logic.

Sorry.  Tried again.  When at least one class was a Vanguard, 70% were successful.  When there were none, it was around 86%.

That is not twice as likely to fail..

[Captain Hammer]

Zenning wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

Err.. I just used it.

They won 100% of the time with Vanguards..

What filter settings are you using? You have to set up a filter for all 4 characters, select each one as vanguard and then choose "or" filter logic.

Sorry.  Tried again.  When at least one class was a Vanguard, 70% were successful.  When there were none, it was around 86%.

That is not twice as likely to fail..

Chance of failure without one: 14%. Chance of failure with one: 30%.

EDIT: Looking at the data again, it's 15.3%, not 14%.

Modifié par Captain Hammer, 18 avril 2012 - 10:43 .

[molecularman]

Hi.

[Zenning]

Captain Hammer wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Captain Hammer wrote...

 Having a vanguard makes a group twice as likely to fail: http://i.imgur.com/R39O5.png


Source if you want to check yourself (use the filter button): http://adf.ly/7X8Nw

Err.. I just used it.

They won 100% of the time with Vanguards..

What filter settings are you using? You have to set up a filter for all 4 characters, select each one as vanguard and then choose "or" filter logic.

Sorry.  Tried again.  When at least one class was a Vanguard, 70% were successful.  When there were none, it was around 86%.

That is not twice as likely to fail..

Chance of failure without one: 14%. Chance of failure with one: 30%.

EDIT: Looking at the data again, it's 15.3%, not 14%.

We're looking at chance of success.  Your data makes them look much, MUCH, worse than they actually are.

Way to go.

[samb]

astheoceansblue wrote...

samb wrote...
Waht????? I charge phantoms all the time when I solo silver.  They go down fast.  Charge, nova cancel backwards, nova, charge and nova right afterwards.  Dead space ninja.  It's turrets that are the bane of all novaguards (shudder).
.

Banshees have seemingly picked up a nasty habit in Gold: snatching you directly out of  your charge. I even had one grab me during a nova-cancel roll in the invinci-frame, but I put that down to a laggy game.

Still, lag makes them even more dangeorus.

Never charge a banshee that has it's eyes on you unless they will die from a charge.  If she is chasing your friend or charging up then it is a bit safer but I generally see VGs avoiding them.

[bloodDragon80]

Phazael wrote...
Most Infiltrators (or anyone with a sniper weapon) actually look at the target before they mash the button, even the average ones.  They also tend to focus on the big targets, which does not mess with what the biotics or other techs are doing.  Furthermore, they do not wander off.  Engineers, at worse, force you to double throw to set off your explosion, which is a mild inconvenience.  They also stick with the group.  Nor do either (or any other non VG class) make people have to conform to them to play. 

Seriously, has anyone ever jumped in a lobby and seen an Infiltrator and though to themselves "well, I better play X class instead, because otherwise I am not going to be useful/its going to be a rough game" ?   The minute you get one Vanguard in the room you can practically hear the sound of bungholes tightening in the room as everyone scans the persons gear and starts deciding whether to switch characters or just hop to another lobby.

You keep saying its not the class its not the player, and I agree.  But I also keep saying that a poor adept won't sink a team like even an average Vanguard will, even if you ignore the bugs, which you guys all keep ignoring in favor of the strawman arguments.  Yeah there are bad players of every class, but none of them can sink a team faster than a VG, who's very playstyle runs contradictory to what nearly every other class is trying to do.  An average player of any other class can make it through the round without sinking his team, sometimes even a poor one.  An average Vanguard is a one way ticket on the failboat for any group above bronze.

hahahahahahaha what universe do you live in? 
and please enlighten me how a VG brings down an entire team

[bloodDragon80]

molecularman wrote...

Hi.

sup

[Count Dante]

Maybe because I play a vanguard so often I dont see it, but people say Vanguard is hard to play.

It really isnt. But it does take patience and awareness.

I put on a weapon with some distance and play at the squad bodyguard (Drell or Krogan most played by me). When big guys come out that I cant help with damage on, I will safely clean up trash mobs to allow the rest of the team to inflict damage. I am not on the top of the point list most times. But I enjoy the playstyle. I am either the Krogan (tank) or AoE make-shift sniping (Drell).

As it was stated above, Vanguards are usually selfish, sure. And unless the squad is built to allow the Vanguard reckless abandon and made to support the Guard as the "tip of spear", selfish is a good word to describe.

But also remember, not all of us play that way.

[Captain Hammer]

Zenning wrote...

We're looking at chance of success.  Your data makes them look much, MUCH, worse than they actually are.

Way to go.

Nope. We're looking at chance of failure, because that's what I said in the first place. Groups tend to win, but 30% chance of loss is nothing to scoff at. It might not be Vanguards. It might be people who play Vanguards. It might be bugs or lag. Whatever the reason, though, groups with at least 1 vanguard are twice as likely to fail. Don't be like everyone else on the forum and try to defend a bad point. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

[JaccoW]

I enjoy playing classes in ways that are not the most obvious way. For those familiar with Team Fortress 2; Pyro is a relatively fast extreme close-range class that can kill anything in seconds.
Most people play it in a way that is called W+M1. It gets the class a lot of bad rep.
Just like Vanguard it is a class that is a lot of FUN to play, but most people will die a lot.
With some self-restraint and a lot of practice, Pyro can be an excellent support-class, a very unexpected long-range master and still a lot of fun to play. I think the same goes for Vanguards. When people learn to surpress that first instinct to spam Charge and learn to offer support

The only class I have complete is Vanguard. Today I received Krogan Vanguard from the free pack.
I had touched Vanguard maybe only once before, but because of packs it was already up to level 12 or so. On bronze I would just obliterate anything in my path. Leading to scores more than 4 times higher than the nearest player. Charging around and meleeing everything else.

While fun, I realized it was not as much fun for other players.

So I went on a silver match and just stood back, protected the long-range classes, ran for revives and distracted the heavy enemies. A pair of infiltrators was running around shooting everything before I even saw an enemy. Only at wave 5 or so I could do some fighting.
That was frustrating to me as a regular Turian Sentinel M-99 Saber player. That class can take pretty much anything.
But hey, we are playing as a team. I don't really notice a big difference between being first or last in a match. Only in XP, but the amount of money stays the same. When you get further in MP that is all that counts. Right?

[wsandista]

Phazael wrote...

sliverofamoon wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Phazael wrote...

Charge also sets off Warp, pretty much the basis for most Adept and Sentinal combos against armor. You probably don't notice it because you are too busy trying to line up something in the recticle to spam charge again. Also, Charge has precisely zero talents for enhancing biotic explosions, unlike Warp, Reave, Throw, and Singularity. Your only contribution to the explosion chain is the three target evolution, which may or may not trigger the correct enemies to explode, but never with enhanced damage.

And really, if two adepts do not work together (usually because no one has a microphone) on their BEs, at least they are not actively making the game worse for everyone else. A crappy adept can deal damage without getting in anyone's way or dying out of reach. They also don't wander off and screw up the way the spawns work.

It bears repeating, anyone can carry a crummy member of any other class, but even an average vanguard means a world of suck for everyone else.

Why don't you have a problem with the snipers that pick off enemies that you're trying to set off a combo with. What about soldiers who adrenaline then spray their revenant? How do you feel about enginers who incinerate your targets before you can warp them?

It's not the class it's the player.

Yep. Agreed 100%. Lovely to have a good BE set up on a group of enemies, and you see that lovely bullet wiz in and smack with a leg, arm, or body shot on your target, or Overload start buzzing your target. When I feel like playing an Infiltrator, and a Vanguard joins the lobby, I change from my BW Sniper, to my HI Shotgunner, and it works great. No complaints on either end.

Most Infiltrators (or anyone with a sniper weapon) actually look at the target before they mash the button, even the average ones.  They also tend to focus on the big targets, which does not mess with what the biotics or other techs are doing.  Furthermore, they do not wander off.  Engineers, at worse, force you to double throw to set off your explosion, which is a mild inconvenience.  They also stick with the group.  Nor do either (or any other non VG class) make people have to conform to them to play. 

Seriously, has anyone ever jumped in a lobby and seen an Infiltrator and though to themselves "well, I better play X class instead, because otherwise I am not going to be useful/its going to be a rough game" ?   The minute you get one Vanguard in the room you can practically hear the sound of bungholes tightening in the room as everyone scans the persons gear and starts deciding whether to switch characters or just hop to another lobby.

You keep saying its not the class its not the player, and I agree.  But I also keep saying that a poor adept won't sink a team like even an average Vanguard will, even if you ignore the bugs, which you guys all keep ignoring in favor of the strawman arguments.  Yeah there are bad players of every class, but none of them can sink a team faster than a VG, who's very playstyle runs contradictory to what nearly every other class is trying to do.  An average player of any other class can make it through the round without sinking his team, sometimes even a poor one.  An average Vanguard is a one way ticket on the failboat for any group above bronze.

Actually yes I have changed class when I see an Infiltrator, because they do everything that you've been complaining about with vanguards. "look at me guys I can sneak up behind a banshee and kill it with claymore" then they get cut down by the cannibals who have been flaking the banshee. Then there is the sentinel who loves detonating their armor gets killed because they did't think that 30% damage reduction was as good as a tech explosion. Then there is the soldier who thinks that adrenaline makes them unstopable gets taken don by a brute. Then the enginer who can't use tech powers correctly. Then the adepts who love the awesome heavy weapons and fail to use powers when they need them.

Maybe you just haven't played with many who can use vanguards well. Don't hate the class because the player can't handle it.

[Nizzemancer]

shoo, less QQ more pew pew.

[Zenning]

Captain Hammer wrote...

Zenning wrote...

We're looking at chance of success.  Your data makes them look much, MUCH, worse than they actually are.

Way to go.

Nope. We're looking at chance of failure, because that's what I said in the first place. Groups tend to win, but 30% chance of loss is nothing to scoff at. It might not be Vanguards. It might be people who play Vanguards. It might be bugs or lag. Whatever the reason, though, groups with at least 1 vanguard are twice as likely to fail. Don't be like everyone else on the forum and try to defend a bad point. It's ok to be wrong sometimes.

That isn't fair at all.  First off, Vanguards had the lowest sample size, second a 15% increase is loss is big, and it is a noticible amount (I imagined that was the case), but calling twice as much, while true, makes it sound much, MUCH, worse than it actually is.  If you said insetad that they had were about 20% less likely to succeed, that would of been much much more honest.

I mean, if I said that Justicars made a group 70% more likely to fail, that makes Justicars look much worse than they actually are.

Modifié par Zenning, 18 avril 2012 - 11:02 .

[thefiresidecat]

Zenning wrote...

Shut the hell up.

Thank yo-

No, that'll get me modded.


Look, we get that a lot of Vanguards suck ass.  But plenty are awesome, so stop with the random Vanguard bashing.  Seriously.  You're not cool.

yup, plenty are awesome in bronze and silver but mostly suck ass in silver and gold  

[wsandista]

Jessica1995 wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Shut the hell up.

Thank yo-

No, that'll get me modded.


Look, we get that a lot of Vanguards suck ass.  But plenty are awesome, so stop with the random Vanguard bashing.  Seriously.  You're not cool.

I just get annoyed when theres the vanguard type that keeps using Biotic Charge into a group of enemies on GOLD and keeps getting downed over and over and over and again and again and again and over and again...you get my point. He just hurts the team more than he helps mainly because I'm that person who feels bad if I don't attempt to revive my squadmate. As are most people I've played with so we might end up losing because of that Vanguard. Obviously thats just one person, but I still haven't played with a decent Vanguard yet =/

That is because people really under estimate Gold. Gold is very hard, even with Geth, you should be level20 and have good weapons at least at level 7 before you attempt Gold.

[Zenning]

Jessica1995 wrote...

Zenning wrote...

Shut the hell up.

Thank yo-

No, that'll get me modded.


Look, we get that a lot of Vanguards suck ass.  But plenty are awesome, so stop with the random Vanguard bashing.  Seriously.  You're not cool.

I just get annoyed when theres the vanguard type that keeps using Biotic Charge into a group of enemies on GOLD and keeps getting downed over and over and over and again and again and again and over and again...you get my point. He just hurts the team more than he helps mainly because I'm that person who feels bad if I don't attempt to revive my squadmate. As are most people I've played with so we might end up losing because of that Vanguard. Obviously thats just one person, but I still haven't played with a decent Vanguard yet =/

A good Vanguard will charge groups of enemies.. TIme, after time.. after time.

They will not die.

At all.

[veramis]

I've been trying to host as vanguard on gold but everyone keeps leaving. There really must be a stigma against human vanguards, even though I think it is clearly the most OP class in the game.