387 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

You haven't addressed the fact that the starchild himself says that you're the first organic to ever be there, so tell me again: how did the creators of the crucible (the people who modified it to use the citadel, who were not the original creators of the crucible)  know about that room and the starchild? Psychic powers?

So you have to stand on a computer to know it's a computer now? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Obviously you're the first organic to get there, because every other cycle lost the Citadel instantly (they didn't know it was an inactive mass relay.) That doesn't mean they didn't figure out that whatever controls the Reapers lives there. In fact, given that it's the first stop for the Reapers at the beginning of every invasion, it's not a huge leap. Secure general, get marching orders, go to work, repeat.

And that's assuming they consciously programmed it to alter the AI inside. For all you know, changing starkid could just be a side effect of incorporating the Citadel into the giant space gun.

[survivor_686]

KingZayd wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I do know. I've answered that TWICE already. Here you go, for a  third time: 
Vendetta supposes it's as a power source.

Vendetta is guessing. The Protheans did not invent the Crucible, nor do they fully understand it. He doesn't even know who incorporated the Citadel into the blueprints, nor how long ago, nor why.

How about YOU go talk to Vendetta again?

KingZayd wrote...The crucible changed his hardware. His software remains unchanged.

AI are not hardware - both EDI and Legion tell you this. The Catalyst says "The Crucible changed me." The only way for this to be true is if it changed his software.

KingZayd wrote...
Oh so the anti-reaper weapon which is designed in ignorance of there being a  reaper-control AI on the citadel, just HAPPENS to be able to reprogram him? and also, is designed to be triggered using things in this room which nobody knew was there, but "oh how lucky, there it is"?

Again, only the Protheans (and the current cycle) were ignorant of the AI's existence. That is not necessarily true of past cycles.

LOL, you're the one who told me to talk to vendetta again a few pages back, so I told you what he said.

You haven't addressed the fact that the starchild himself says that you're the first organic to ever be there, so tell me again: how did the creators of the crucible (the people who modified it to use the citadel, who were not the original creators of the crucible)  know about that room and the starchild? Psychic powers?

Perhaps starchild was an unforseen variable. I imagined the Crucible was originally built to simply send out an gaitn EMP pulse to fry the Reapers, this pulse would be distribuited through the Relays (courtesy of the Citadel).

Otherwise we just built a giant doorbell, just to wake Starchild up.

[Apathy1989]

Tirranek wrote...

It's the fact that it's imposing a change on everyone without their consent that made it impossible to me. Same reason I destroyed the Geth heretics in ME2 rather than indoctrinate them.

Indeed. Ignoring the space magic, this bugs me the most.

[111987]

DJBare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why is Synthesis any ethically worse than Destroy or Control?

In Destroy you are committing genocide, and if you believe StarChild, are simply delaying the cycle from restarting. In Control you are essentially taking all the power in the galaxy to use yourself...one person now basically controls the entire galaxy.

Control comes down to the one who wields the power, my paragon would use it to send the Reapers back into dark space, I'd hate to think what my renegade would do with them, likely use them for a smash derby, have them racing around the system smasing into each other, actually that sounds fun, perhaps my paragon will do it also.

That assumes your Paragon can handle basically unlimited power without being corrupted/compromised by it.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

You haven't addressed the fact that the starchild himself says that you're the first organic to ever be there, so tell me again: how did the creators of the crucible (the people who modified it to use the citadel, who were not the original creators of the crucible)  know about that room and the starchild? Psychic powers?

So you have to stand on a computer to know it's a computer now? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

Obviously you're the first organic to get there, because every other cycle lost the Citadel instantly (they didn't know it was an inactive mass relay.) That doesn't mean they didn't figure out that whatever controls the Reapers lives there. In fact, given that it's the first stop for the Reapers at the beginning of every invasion, it's not a huge leap. Secure general, get marching orders, go to work, repeat.

And that's assuming they consciously programmed it to alter the AI inside. For all you know, changing starkid could just be a side effect of incorporating the Citadel into the giant space gun.

You have to see some evidence that the computer's there to know there's a computer there. The lift just came from the ceiling and lifted you up there. How do they know about the trigger mechanisms being in that room without ever seeing it?

It's the first stop for the reapers at the beginning of every invasion because they come through the citadel relay, there is no reason to deduce that the commander of the reapers is in that location. Why do they need secure the general that has been sitting there happily all this time without anyone having a clue he's there. If he controls the reapers (which is what he says he does) why do they need to go there to get the marching orders? they don't.

So now you're saying the software change is just the result of the hardware change? Ok you've changed the citadel into a giant space gun. That somehow causes the starchild to change itself, decide to bring you upstairs and say that his solution won't work any more, even though it could have if he didn't. Then he possesses the free will to not stop the reapers, but he doesn't possess the free will to stop you from destroying them and him. makes perfect sense.

Also since you brought up the start of the past invasions, then that brings us to mass effect 1 territory:

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)?

How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst?

When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on?

Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth.

Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use?

Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

[KingZayd]

survivor_686 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I do know. I've answered that TWICE already. Here you go, for a  third time: 
Vendetta supposes it's as a power source.

Vendetta is guessing. The Protheans did not invent the Crucible, nor do they fully understand it. He doesn't even know who incorporated the Citadel into the blueprints, nor how long ago, nor why.

How about YOU go talk to Vendetta again?

KingZayd wrote...The crucible changed his hardware. His software remains unchanged.

AI are not hardware - both EDI and Legion tell you this. The Catalyst says "The Crucible changed me." The only way for this to be true is if it changed his software.

KingZayd wrote...
Oh so the anti-reaper weapon which is designed in ignorance of there being a  reaper-control AI on the citadel, just HAPPENS to be able to reprogram him? and also, is designed to be triggered using things in this room which nobody knew was there, but "oh how lucky, there it is"?

Again, only the Protheans (and the current cycle) were ignorant of the AI's existence. That is not necessarily true of past cycles.

LOL, you're the one who told me to talk to vendetta again a few pages back, so I told you what he said.

You haven't addressed the fact that the starchild himself says that you're the first organic to ever be there, so tell me again: how did the creators of the crucible (the people who modified it to use the citadel, who were not the original creators of the crucible)  know about that room and the starchild? Psychic powers?

Perhaps starchild was an unforseen variable. I imagined the Crucible was originally built to simply send out an gaitn EMP pulse to fry the Reapers, this pulse would be distribuited through the Relays (courtesy of the Citadel).

Otherwise we just built a giant doorbell, just to wake Starchild up.

I was thinking it might be an unforeseen variable (if we ignore indoc theory, which suggests it might not even be there at all), but if it was then there's no reason for it's software to have been reprogrammed as Optymistik seems to believe it has been. When it refers to the changes, it's referring to the fact you added a weapon to it. A hardware change.

[KingZayd]

111987 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

111987 wrote...

Why is Synthesis any ethically worse than Destroy or Control?

In Destroy you are committing genocide, and if you believe StarChild, are simply delaying the cycle from restarting. In Control you are essentially taking all the power in the galaxy to use yourself...one person now basically controls the entire galaxy.

Control comes down to the one who wields the power, my paragon would use it to send the Reapers back into dark space, I'd hate to think what my renegade would do with them, likely use them for a smash derby, have them racing around the system smasing into each other, actually that sounds fun, perhaps my paragon will do it also.

That assumes your Paragon can handle basically unlimited power without being corrupted/compromised by it.

And even that a rudimentary creature of blood and flesh such as the Shepard is capable controlling the reapers.

[Cobra's_back]

sammysoso wrote...

I think it's laughable that the star kid says that it's the "final evolution."

Evolution doesn't have an endpoint, that along with the new DNA crap makes me wonder what kind of science classes the writers attended.

Totally agree, this was just plain stupid.

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

You have to see some evidence that the computer's there to know there's a computer there.

Again - how do you know that long-ago pre-Prothean race had no evidence? You have no data one way or the other.

KingZayd wrote...
So now you're saying the software change is just the result of the hardware change?

Plugging EDI into the Normandy was also "just a hardware change" was it not? By your logic, nothing special should have happened beyond her having control of the ship. But you changed her much more significantly than that - to the point that she could make moral judgements, change her own programming, and even spill the beans on all of TIM's dirty laundry. So yes, a hardware change can have very profound effects on AI.

KingZayd wrote...
Then he possesses the free will to not stop the reapers, but he doesn't possess the free will to stop you from destroying them and him. makes perfect sense.

Until you make a choice, he is bound by his original programming. He tells you himself that "he can't make the new options happen," and that he needs you. All he can do is bring them to your attention. The Crucible was designed to be operated by an organic, not a machine, otherwise it would have been pointless to use as a weapon against machines.

KingZayd wrote...
Also since you brought up the start of the past invasions, then that brings us to mass effect 1 territory:

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)?

How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst?

When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on?

Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth.

Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use?

Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?

1) This is easily explained by the Catalyst being dormant, possibly even remaining so throughout all the cycles until the Crucible brings it out.
2) See 1.
3) See 1. Also, Sovereign could not get close enough to the Keepers to discover why they failed to answer his call.
4) So that an indoctrinated slave can open the arms in the event that the surprise attack failed and the Citadel is sealed. This is precisely what we see happen in ME1.
5) See 1.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[omphaloskepsis]

Extra-Planetal wrote...

I still say Synthesis ending - IT'S A TRAP

This.  There's no reason to trust the starchild or the reapers. 

Plus the Synthesis ending is the extra cherry on top of a ridiculous, poorly written, B-movie ending.

The new DNA thing is not science, it's not science fiction, it's the worst of space magic, and I'd probably be disgusted with it even in a fantasy setting.  It's that bad.

Casey and Walters apparently didn't take middle school or high school biology (or didn't understand it), but the new DNA dialog and the final evolution dialog have to go.  Unless they're deliberately aiming for an MST3K ending, in which case they aced it.

Modifié par drewelow, 18 avril 2012 - 07:04 .

[KingZayd]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

You have to see some evidence that the computer's there to know there's a computer there.
[/quote]

Again - how do you know that long-ago pre-Prothean race had no evidence? You have no data one way or the other.
[/quote]

The starchild was acting so shy all this time, why would he reveal himself to the earlier races? how would they have found him? any ideas? especially since according to you, he's been napping all this time.


[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
So now you're saying the software change is just the result of the hardware change? [/quote]

Plugging EDI into the Normandy was also "just a hardware change" was it not? By your logic, nothing special should have happened beyond her having control of the ship. But you changed her much more significantly than that - to the point that she could make moral judgements, change her own programming, and even spill the beans on all of TIM's dirty laundry. So yes, a hardware change can have very profound effects on AI.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I changed her, not the Normandy. Software change came from me, not the Normandy.


[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
Then he possesses the free will to not stop the reapers, but he doesn't possess the free will to stop you from destroying them and him. makes perfect sense.[/quote]

Until you make a choice, he is bound by his original programming. He tells you himself that "he can't make the new options happen," and that he needs you. All he can do is bring them to your attention. The Crucible was designed to be operated by an organic, not a machine, otherwise it would have been pointless to use as a weapon against machines.
[/quote]
His original programming changed, but he is still bound by his original programming? "Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?" you can't have it both ways. He's an AI he has free will. He controls the reapers, and as seen, the room. He would be free to stop you from picking destroy if he has free will. If he didn't have free will, why does he bring you upstairs and yet refuse to leave organics alone?



[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
Also since you brought up the start of the past invasions, then that brings us to mass effect 1 territory:

Why does the Catalyst (of whom the Citadel is part of) need a reaper that it controls to stay behind and tell  it when the Harvest is ready [the organic races are on the Citadel (part of the Catalyst)], so that it can send a signal to the Keepers so that they can open the Citadel relay (part of the Catalyst)?

How do the Protheans sneak onto the Citadel (part of the Catalyst) and change it without alerting the Catalyst?

When the Citadel receives Sovereign's signal, and the keepers aren't activated, why doesn't it let Sovereign know what's going on?

Why does Sovereign have to spend thousands of years figuring out by himself, and eventually using Saren to discover the truth.

Why does the Citadel (part of the catalyst) have a master control console that organics can use?

Why hasn't the Catalyst made the other reapers it controls who can enter the Milky Way using FTL drives, do so in all that time?[/quote]

1) This is easily explained by the Catalyst being dormant, possibly even remaining so throughout all the cycles until the Crucible brings it out.
2) See 1.
3) See 1. Also, Sovereign could not get close enough to the Keepers to discover why they failed to answer his call.
4) So that an indoctrinated slave can open the arms in the event that the surprise attack failed and the Citadel is sealed. This is precisely what we see happen in ME1.
5) See 1.
[/quote]


 why would the Catalyst be dormant? why does it only wake up when we attach the crucible? seems like the most useless AI ever, all it does is sleep. If the catalyst is dormant all the time, how does an earlier cycle deduce it's existence and it's location? how does it control the reapers if it is ALWAYS sleeping?

Why require an indoctrinated slave? Why not make it respond to a reaper signal in that case? If they were anticipating that someone would mess with the citadel (part of the catalyst)  and prevent them from taking the citadel from the beginning, why not have some non-dormant security precautions on the citadel? Each time, you keep making the reapers and their controller sound progressively more stupid.

When Saren does get to the control panel, Sovereign doesn't think of waking up the Starchild?

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[Daniel_N7]

Apart from the "logic" of the Synthesis solution, and all the issues already raised in this thread, have you all thought what the synthesis ending means to the future of the Mass Effect franchise?

Consider that for a moment.

It basically disrupts everything. Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but I for one am not interested in a future of prequels and games set "during the events of ME3". So the synthesis ending is not only horrible as a concept - and lets not even go into political interpretations of that - but is is also an authorial suicide regarding the future of Mass Effect.

[ArchDuck]

You guys should probably quit responding to Optimystic_X (unless you are having fun). He is just being a troll. He specifically avoids responding to the entirety of statements and wants everyone to agree that nothing but good can come of synthesis because the catalyst said so.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 18 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[KingZayd]

drewelow wrote...

Extra-Planetal wrote...

I still say Synthesis ending - IT'S A TRAP

This.  There's no reason to trust the starchild or the reapers. 

Plus the Synthesis ending is the extra cherry on top of a ridiculous, poorly written, B-movie ending.

The new DNA thing is not science, it's not science fiction, it's the worst of space magic, and I'd probably be disgusted with it even in a fantasy setting.  It's that bad.

Casey and Walters apparently didn't take middle school or high school biology (or didn't understand it), but the new DNA dialog and the final evolution dialog have to go.  Unless they're deliberately aiming for an MST3K ending, in which case they aced it.

Agreed, it's definitely a trap. in which case, it doesn't have to make sense, it just has to convince. and evidently it does.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[Baa Baa]

Plus I imagine most Organics would rather be dead than Synthetic

[Sean]

That is why the synthesis choice is idiotic and shouldn't have been part of the game.

Then there is the fact that what constitutes a synthetic? Would VIs be considered synthetic by the beam and now be organic as well? Does that mean any piece of technology with a processor now be alive?

Then the other fact is, is that synthetics don't have DNA. An Artificial Intelligence is a computer with an extremely high amount of processing power to simulate an organic. For all intents and purposes they are organic, just made out of metal.

So it isn't possible to combine synthetic "DNA" with organic DNA since only organics have dna.

[MattFini]

drewelow wrote...

Extra-Planetal wrote...

I still say Synthesis ending - IT'S A TRAP

This.  There's no reason to trust the starchild or the reapers. 

Plus the Synthesis ending is the extra cherry on top of a ridiculous, poorly written, B-movie ending.

The new DNA thing is not science, it's not science fiction, it's the worst of space magic, and I'd probably be disgusted with it even in a fantasy setting.  It's that bad.

Casey and Walters apparently didn't take middle school or high school biology (or didn't understand it), but the new DNA dialog and the final evolution dialog have to go.  Unless they're deliberately aiming for an MST3K ending, in which case they aced it.

A+

I chose synthesis the first time ... it was late at night, I was confused and didn't really like any of my choices.  So I just kind of lumbered forward in disbelief ... and I still regret seeing that damn thing.

Went back and chose Destroy the following morning.  Didn't really like it much, but it's the only ending that even REMOTELY makes me feel like I've achieved victory over the Reapers. 

[sdfgdsfsdfsfs]

Zolt51 wrote...

It's supposed to be one ending. Not necessarily a good one. It is one hell of a decision to make. Then again, the chance probably won't ever come again either.

If you don't like it, don't choose it. Problem solved.

Don't bother with the war effort either.

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

The starchild was acting so shy all this time, why would he reveal himself to the earlier races?

Who says he had to? You can find evidence of something without it leaping out and revealing itself to you. Liara discovered the "cycles" all the way back in ME1, while everyone else still thought the Protheans were the inventors of all the technology and that they died in a freak accident. Did the Innusanon call her up, or speak to her in a dream? No, she's a scientist, and she notices things - just as, presumably, the Crucible inventors/modifiers would have done.

KingZayd wrote...

I changed her, not the Normandy. Software change came from me, not the Normandy.

Not the point. The only change you made was a hardware change (plugging her in) yet her software was substantially modified as a result. Why can you believe that scenario for EDI, but not the Catalyst?

KingZayd wrote...
His original programming changed, but he is still bound by his original programming? "Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?" you can't have it both ways.

His original mission/solution does not actually change until you pick one of the three options. Until you do, they are merely possibilities, not actual modifications. So if you stand there derping out after the conversation, you run out of time because the Reapers are still in "kill" mode.

KingZayd wrote...
He's an AI he has free will.

Shackled AI do not have free will, and he is clearly shackled (since he needs organic help to pursue a given course of action, which is the very definition of a shackled AI.)

KingZayd wrote...
He controls the reapers, and as seen, the room. He would be free to stop you from picking destroy if he has free will. If he didn't have free will, why does he bring you upstairs and yet refuse to leave organics alone?

Explained above. He shows you the paths but cannot stop his original mission until you pick one.

KingZayd wrote...

 why would the Catalyst be dormant? why does it only wake up when we attach the crucible? seems like the most useless AI ever, all it does is sleep. If the catalyst is dormant all the time, how does an earlier cycle deduce it's existence and it's location? how does it control the reapers if it is ALWAYS sleeping?

Why wouldn't it be? Clearly its input isn't crucial, they've been reaping successfully for hundreds of millennia.
As far as deducing its location, why would they need to? For all you know, the Crucible just plugs into the Citadel at the most convenient point, and happens to affect him as a result.

KingZayd wrote...
Why require an indoctrinated slave? Why not make it respond to a reaper signal in that case?

Because if the arms are closed, only a sleeper agent could get them open again.

KingZayd wrote...
When Saren does get to the control panel, Sovereign doesn't think of waking up the Starchild?

Did he need to?
Or more to the point, didn't he? Somebody woke up the other Reapers (they survive in dark space by hibernating, according to Vigil) and got them moving.

There's just too many gaps there for you to definitively say "this is how it went down, therefore it doesn't make sense." Plenty of room for handwaving.

[PsyrenY]

ArchDuck wrote...

You guys should probably quit responding to Optimystic_X (unless you are having fun). He is just being a troll. He specifically avoids responding to the entirety of statements and wants everyone to agree that nothing but good can come of synthesis because the catalyst said so.

Or maybe I'm just being... optimistic?

But don't let me pour my sunshine on your gloom parade, by all means blow up the Geth if you want, I'm not stopping you. :innocent:

[wright1978]

Yep turning all life into versions of the collectors to ensure they never again dare to create anything new such as AI's is horrific to me.

[ArchDuck]

It is pretty obvious that the green magic synthesis ending is what adds the fantasy to this fantasy oops science fiction genre.

[recentio]

Synthesis is by far the least acceptable "solution" by both scientific and moral standards. No one has the right to play god with other people's bodies without their consent. And it's impossible to fuse biological and (nonexistent) robot DNA in the first place.

EDIT: Forgot to add that it doesn't even solve the supposed "chaos", as there's nothing to prevent hybrids from creating new synthetics or purifying new organics.

Modifié par recentio, 18 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[Sean]

One ironic thing is that Javik speaks of a race that was once organic but to save themselves that had to start making themselves organic. Then they wanted to kill organics. Synthesis ending is basically following that.

[jdtungsten]

MattFini wrote...

drewelow wrote...

Extra-Planetal wrote...

I still say Synthesis ending - IT'S A TRAP

This.  There's no reason to trust the starchild or the reapers. 

Plus the Synthesis ending is the extra cherry on top of a ridiculous, poorly written, B-movie ending.

The new DNA thing is not science, it's not science fiction, it's the worst of space magic, and I'd probably be disgusted with it even in a fantasy setting.  It's that bad.

Casey and Walters apparently didn't take middle school or high school biology (or didn't understand it), but the new DNA dialog and the final evolution dialog have to go.  Unless they're deliberately aiming for an MST3K ending, in which case they aced it.

A+

I chose synthesis the first time ... it was late at night, I was confused and didn't really like any of my choices.  So I just kind of lumbered forward in disbelief ... and I still regret seeing that damn thing.

Went back and chose Destroy the following morning.  Didn't really like it much, but it's the only ending that even REMOTELY makes me feel like I've achieved victory over the Reapers. 

So glad see someone who didn't like the ending after choosing the synthesis. At least all the reviewers I've seen or read picked that ending and just loved it more than anything which sicken me because it comes down to that fact that this ending is the endgame of genocide rather than the final "evoluation". Forcing everyone to conform to a certain type of lifeform seem wrong and very immortal. Plus nothing about it makes sense biological and raises many questions like can this new type of life die of old age, do they reproduce, does it things like viruses and microorganisms, etc