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[Axialbloom]

I have said many times, Synthesis is the most evil and horrific thing to ever happen in the ME galaxy. And bioware thought this was a 'good' ending?

Modifié par Axialbloom, 18 avril 2012 - 07:31 .

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

You guys should probably quit responding to Optimystic_X (unless you are having fun). He is just being a troll. He specifically avoids responding to the entirety of statements and wants everyone to agree that nothing but good can come of synthesis because the catalyst said so.

Or maybe I'm just being... optimistic?

But don't let me pour my sunshine on your gloom parade, by all means blow up the Geth if you want, I'm not stopping you. :innocent:

Optimistic doesn't change that fact that you seem to think
1) other arguements are invalid because catalyst said so (or didn't say so)
2) You refuse to address all the arguements/information people bring forward.

You are very selective about what you respond to and seem to instantly cease responding to the chain if you think your argument is losing footing.

Also Realism =/= Pessimism

Here I am avoiding my own advice

[CroGamer002]

Axialbloom wrote...

I have said many times, Synthesis is the most evil and horrific thing to ever happen in the ME galaxy. And bioware thought this was a 'good' ending?

Not just good, but best one!

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Mesina2 wrote...

Axialbloom wrote...

I have said many times, Synthesis is the most evil and horrific thing to ever happen in the ME galaxy. And bioware thought this was a 'good' ending?

Not just good, but best one!

That's because it's green... like some nice freshly harvested.......

[Oldbones2]

GorrilaKing wrote...

Even though it''s the supposedly "good" ending, with everyone living, it still seems quite horrific to me.

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage? The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

Don't forget that everything from single cell bacteria up to people will be effected and changed.

That means that that cow you're eating could be begging for mercy tomorrow.

Don't worry you'll go vegan.

Wait, that tree is trying to tell you it has a soul.

Oh well, maybe just plug into a wall outlet?

NOPE, mister wall outlet is in a monogamous relationship with the lamp.  No power for you.

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...

All I can think when people say its a good or the best option is that they either failed to think about it thoroughly or that they failed biology and science in general.

Sorry to quote myself but I just felt I should expand on that statement slightly.

I found the ethical analysis of the Green Synthesis ending to be: Force every creatures base nature to change against their will (Alter the genetic make up of life & "Robo-Genetics"). AKA arrogantly altering the course of all life in the galaxy without knowing any of the consequences.

And the intellectual analysis to be:
Using the idea of "Synthetic DNA" = fail.
Using the idea of "ultimate evolution" = fail.
Green energy making uber complex changes to organic genetics on the fly and identifying synthetic life so it can make even more complex organic component incorporations. Uh WTF?

Modifié par ArchDuck, 18 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[WandererRTF]

Wonder how far synthesis reaches, given that leaves turned into circuit pattern it certainly is not limited to sentient lifeforms, would say your intestinal flora form tiny circuits into them and turn into tiny hybrid AI entities? So did you just turn former sapient lifeforms into what essentially amounts to as mobile resthomes for tiny hybrids? Or what? Whole concept of synthesis opens an immense Pandora's box which does not make any sense at any level and ought to have been left alone.

[PsyrenY]

ArchDuck wrote...

Optimistic doesn't change that fact that you seem to think
1) other arguements are invalid because catalyst said so (or didn't say so)
2) You refuse to address all the arguements/information people bring forward.

1) The arguments I've seen are "how was the Crucible made for an AI that nobody knew was there." To which my responses are simply:
(a) We only knew that the PROTHEANS didn't know about it, that doesn't mean nobody else did;
( Even if we accept that nobody knew about it, that doesn't mean it could have been altered inadvertently. If you pour crude oil into a lake, you don't have to see the fish to know that you're corrupting them.

We know it was altered, because it tells us it is. You're free to distrust it (this is the lynchpin of the IDT after all) but there is no logical reason to do so - if he truly wanted to stymie you he didn't have to bring you up on that elevator at all.

2) What have I not addressed?

ArchDuck wrote...
You are very selective about what you respond to and seem to instantly cease responding to the chain if you think your argument is losing footing.

No, I just don't feel the need to quote every single point that my counterpoint addresses. If you actually read my posts you'd see that I've addressed everything thrown my way.

ArchDuck wrote...
Also Realism =/= Pessimism

"Realism?" You're advocating one flavor of space magic over another and your basis for doing so is "realism?"

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 07:55 .

[KingZayd]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

The starchild was acting so shy all this time, why would he reveal himself to the earlier races?[/quote]

Who says he had to? You can find evidence of something without it leaping out and revealing itself to you. Liara discovered the "cycles" all the way back in ME1, while everyone else still thought the Protheans were the inventors of all the technology and that they died in a freak accident. Did the Innusanon call her up, or speak to her in a dream? No, she's a scientist, and she notices things - just as, presumably, the Crucible inventors/modifiers would have done.
[/quote]
Where would they find the evidence? Liara dug it up as an archaeologist. How did anyone discover the starchild on the citadel?






[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...

I changed her, not the Normandy. Software change came from me, not the Normandy.[/quote]

Not the point. The only change you made was a hardware change (plugging her in) yet her software was substantially modified as a result. Why can you believe that scenario for EDI, but not the Catalyst?
[/quote]
being plugged into the Normandy wasn't what changed her. her experiences changed her. I don't for one second believe it was the act of plugging her into the Normandy that changed her software, nor do i believe that plugging the Crucible into the Catalyst changed its software

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
His original programming changed, but he is still bound by his original programming? "Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?" you can't have it both ways.[/quote]

His original mission/solution does not actually change until you pick one of the three options. Until you do, they are merely possibilities, not actual modifications. So if you stand there derping out after the conversation, you run out of time because the Reapers are still in "kill" mode.
[/quote]

again, if his original mission/solution doesn't change, why bring me upstairs?


[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
He's an AI he has free will.[/quote]

Shackled AI do not have free will, and he is clearly shackled (since he needs organic help to pursue a given course of action, which is the very definition of a shackled AI.)
[/quote]
He doesn't need organic help to bring you upstairs, or to move the walls of the Citadel or even to control the reapers. Where are these shackles? 


[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
He controls the reapers, and as seen, the room. He would be free to stop you from picking destroy if he has free will. If he didn't have free will, why does he bring you upstairs and yet refuse to leave organics alone?[/quote]

Explained above. He shows you the paths but cannot stop his original mission until you pick one.
[/quote]
By showing you the paths, he is already interfering with his original mission.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

 why would the Catalyst be dormant? why does it only wake up when we attach the crucible? seems like the most useless AI ever, all it does is sleep. If the catalyst is dormant all the time, how does an earlier cycle deduce it's existence and it's location? how does it control the reapers if it is ALWAYS sleeping?[/quote]



Why wouldn't it be? Clearly its input isn't crucial, they've been reaping successfully for hundreds of millennia.
As far as deducing its location, why would they need to? For all you know, the Crucible just plugs into the Citadel at the most convenient point, and happens to affect him as a result. 
[/quote]
So why is it there if it does nothing? Surely it has a purpose? Again, how does it affect him. How can they assume that plugging into the Citadel at that point will bring out this mysterious sleeping Catalyst AI that they have no reason to suspect is there and affect him? If the reapers do everything automatically anyway, then the Vendetta thing about their being a mysterious controller is stupid, because the controller's been asleep the WHOLE time. At the very least, Sovereign could have chilled in dark space too, while the Starchild woke up every so often to perfrom the same check that Sovereign does, and also make the opening of the citadel relay a more efficient process. also, when the protheans hack into the citadel and change it's signal, that doesn't wake it up? again the reapers are sounding increasingly ridiculous which each one of your answers.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...


[quote]KingZayd wrote...
Why require an indoctrinated slave? Why not make it respond to a reaper signal in that case?[/quote]

Because if the arms are closed, only a sleeper agent could get them open again.
[/quote]
But the Citadel is a reaper trap, why have they designed it this way? Instead of putting a sleeper agent, they could have installed a mechanism that responds to a reaper signal that opens the arms. Again, reapers are sounding really stupid at this point.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]KingZayd wrote...
When Saren does get to the control panel, Sovereign doesn't think of waking up the Starchild?[/quote]

Did he need to?
Or more to the point, didn't he? Somebody woke up the other Reapers (they survive in dark space by hibernating, according to Vigil) and got them moving.




There's just too many gaps there for you to definitively say "this is how it went down, therefore it doesn't make sense." Plenty of room for handwaving.
[/quote] 
[/quote]
[/quote]

Were you not talking about securing the General? What sort of general sleeps all the time? Surely that's an easy way of bringing his fellow reapers out of dark space? Since apparently he controls them and all. But now you're starting to suggest the AI exists just for the sake of existing, since it spends all its time sleeping. So what is the catalyst's purpose? it doesn't seem to do anything apart from make the reapers look stupid, and the endings stupid.

Handwaving is always possible, but it makes the the story more ridiculous and more convoluted the more you have to do it. There is much less handwaving required if you don't make the assumption that the Starchild is telling the truth, and the resulting story is much better.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 08:05 .

[Lookout1390]

I picked Synthesis in my first play-through.

Boy do I regret that

Now that I think about it..destroy is the only logical choice to me.

Modifié par Lookout1390, 18 avril 2012 - 08:04 .

[KingZayd]

Oldbones2 wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...

Even though it''s the supposedly "good" ending, with everyone living, it still seems quite horrific to me.

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage? The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

Don't forget that everything from single cell bacteria up to people will be effected and changed.

That means that that cow you're eating could be begging for mercy tomorrow.

Don't worry you'll go vegan.

Wait, that tree is trying to tell you it has a soul.

Oh well, maybe just plug into a wall outlet?

NOPE, mister wall outlet is in a monogamous relationship with the lamp.  No power for you.

NOOOOOO! synthesis turns everyone into Kai "I need to recharge!" Leng. WARN EVERYONE! This is what probably causes all the mass suicides everyone's talking about

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 08:05 .

[IronVanguard]

Impossibility of the choice aside, I went with it, didn't seem too bad beyond the regular issues with ending. Since it's has no real basis to go off, not sure we can say any of those things are really a problem.

Everything's the same, just the reapers, uh, left I guess, and things have glowing circuit lines on them. Kinda disappointing really, I'd hope for more cyborg abilities if I choose an option like that.

[Kalundume]

I repost here my opinion about synthesis: BW should be ashamed to put it as one of endings that are more difficult to obtain (it assumes that it is a "better" ending):

- the “green” synthesis ending reflects inacceptable MORAL RELATIVISM, as it accepts the compromise with the ultimate evil. Whole series of Mass Effect was about defeating the reapers or at least stopping them. While “technically” it is what green ending does (Reapers are pacified because the galaxy races actually satisfy their main desire), it assumes that the galactic civilisations go over all earlier Reaper’s genocide crimes – they trade through Shepard’s decision their “humanity/alienity” for survival. Considering so strong link of ME series with real life (the same world, not so much far in future…), such choice is MORALLY CONDAMNABLE and absolutely INACCEPTABLE as a position. The green ending also violates the galactic races and stains them: it forces a fundamental change upon every sentient being in the universe without any other justification than survival … then remember that Husks are also “Alive” and what Edi discussed with Shepard in your own game.

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You're advocating one flavor of space magic over another and your basis for doing so is "realism?"

I haven't been advocating any form of space magic over another. They all suck, some just suck more.

[NoUserNameHere]

In the leaked script Synthesis was described as 'become one with the Reapers.'

I can only assume that this was the oft-promised 'bad ending' wherein the Reapers win and the intent just... got lost somewhere in production. It did a 180 and became the 'best' ending, space magic and all.

Modifié par NoUserNameHere, 18 avril 2012 - 08:16 .

[alienatedflea]

GorrilaKing wrote...

Even though it''s the supposedly "good" ending, with everyone living, it still seems quite horrific to me.

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage? The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

um I dont think thats how synthesis works...the green light doesnt make everything immediately into hybrids...it just rewrote everyone DNA to make it compatiable to merge with synthetics...just sayin

[recentio]

IronVanguard wrote...

Impossibility of the choice aside, I went with it, didn't seem too bad beyond the regular issues with ending. Since it's has no real basis to go off, not sure we can say any of those things are really a problem.

Everything's the same, just the reapers, uh, left I guess, and things have glowing circuit lines on them. Kinda disappointing really, I'd hope for more cyborg abilities if I choose an option like that.

I feel pretty confident saying that altering the physical body of someone else against their will is a problem. There's no way that everyone Shep does Synthesis to "for their own good" (*cough*megalomania*cough*) was willing. It is fundamentally vile and disgusting thing to force this on someone who doesn't want it.

[KingZayd]

alienatedflea wrote...

GorrilaKing wrote...

Even though it''s the supposedly "good" ending, with everyone living, it still seems quite horrific to me.

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage? The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

um I dont think thats how synthesis works...the green light doesnt make everything immediately into hybrids...it just rewrote everyone DNA to make it compatiable to merge with synthetics...just sayin

If you take what you see to  be true, then you see do see Joker, and the leaves are already hybridised.

[ArchDuck]

alienatedflea wrote...

um I dont think thats how synthesis works...the green light doesnt make everything immediately into hybrids...it just rewrote everyone DNA to make it compatiable to merge with synthetics...just sayin

Actually its well supported, including in the cutscenes, that it is instataneous hybridization.

[Frybread76]

I thought Synthesis was the best ending at first until I started thinking about it. Now, however, I think it is ethically the most "evil" of the three endings.

[survivor_686]

Lookout1390 wrote...

I picked Synthesis in my first play-through.

Boy do I regret that

Now that I think about it..destroy is the only logical choice to me.

Amen to that.

[Turbotanden]

OMG Synthetic parts make all organics evil. Better go out and destroy everyone with a prostethic arm, mechanic heart valves or anyone who seems too attatched to their smart phone.

[ArchDuck]

Turbotanden wrote...

OMG Synthetic parts make all organics evil. Better go out and destroy everyone with a prostethic arm, mechanic heart valves or anyone who seems too attatched to their smart phone.

I don't recall anyone but you saying that.

[Meltemph]

The worst part about snythesis is that it has people fantasizing about "fixing" hum...err Organics, in their personal image. I mean seriously, jsut read everyones "synthesis is awesome" posts. It makes people fantasize about eugenics and fixing the "undesirables". Very disturbing thought ,imo.

The writers could have what they want synthesis to be in their head, but they dont tell it, which makes the player fantasize about some eugenics fantasy/heaven right before they jump in the beam... a bit sickening, imo.

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[EricHVela]

Also think of how evolution favors what survives the longest: The synthetic parts.

Evolution would eventually just forget about the fragile organic parts and let them atrophy.

Synthesis dooms organics to a very, very (geologically) slow extinction.