387 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

Also, if the singularity is so dangerous, then that means the singularity is the final evolution really. Just, we don't really have a way of evolving into it... UNLESS, that organics can plug into the geth consensus... hmm..

[Flammenpanzer]

I think they like this ending as it makes Joker and EDI like Adam and Eve. Gotta give EDI spacemagic uterus somehow!

[Bantz]

I think the problem is we don't know what the fk synthesis actually does. For all we know a turian is the exact same except now he has glowy green eyes.

What's dumber to me is that synthesis doesn't really address the reaper's big problem. What's going to stop the Normandy crew from sitting there and saying "ya know what this farming stuff is bull****. Tali can you build us some robots do this?" "Sure thing joker!". giving them "synthetic dna" whatever the fk that is doesn't mean they wont create synthetics in the future. It just means their eyes glow green. Nothing about that ending actually makes sense.

[Pockydon]

Agreed. The fact that this is the supposed "good ending" sickens me. Seriously bioware? Aren't the 3 of your founders Doctors? How the **** can you possibly think of this as GOOD?

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

Where would they find the evidence? Liara dug it up as an archaeologist. How did anyone discover the starchild on the citadel?

How did they discover the Citadel was necessary to begin with? If all they wanted was a power source, why not simply use a mass relay?

KingZayd wrote...
being plugged into the Normandy wasn't what changed her. her experiences changed her.

False. As EDI herself says:
"I was designed by Cerberus. I do not take moral stances that conflict with orders from my executive officers. But when Jeff removed my AI shackles, I became capable of self-modifying my core programming." She did not have this capability prior to being plugged in. She was able to experience things, but not to change her own directives.

KingZayd wrote...
I don't for one second believe it was the act of plugging her into the Normandy that changed her software, nor do i believe that plugging the Crucible into the Catalyst changed its software

And I don't for one second believe in IDT, so I guess we're at an impasse.

KingZayd wrote...

again, if his original mission/solution doesn't change, why bring me upstairs?

To present you with the three options you unlocked. The Crucible itself compels him to do so, and you are the only functioning organic within range.

KingZayd wrote...
He doesn't need organic help to bring you upstairs, or to move the walls of the Citadel or even to control the reapers. Where are these shackles?

"The Crucible has opened new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

KingZayd wrote...

By showing you the paths, he is already interfering with his original mission.

Yes, because by attaching the Crucible to him, you already did that.

KingZayd wrote...

 why would the Catalyst be dormant? why does it only wake up when we attach the crucible?

The true answer to that requires information I don't have. Any number of reasons can be surmised/handwaved of course, such as it not being needed, or even having the avatar form on the spot as a result of a protocol within the Crucible itself.

KingZayd wrote...
So why is it there if it does nothing? Surely it has a purpose?

It did - originally programming the Reapers. It had no reason to change that purpose until you attached the Crucible, just as EDI had no reason to defy the Illusive Man until she was altered herself.

KingZayd wrote...
But the Citadel is a reaper trap, why have they designed it this way? Instead of putting a sleeper agent, they could have installed a mechanism that responds to a reaper signal that opens the arms. Again, reapers are sounding really stupid at this point.
*snip*

But you can ascribe that level of incompetence to everything they do. When they captured the Citadel, why not vent all the air from the station and turn off the gravity? When the Collectors disabled and raided the Normandy while you weren't there, why not just blow it out of the sky (leaving you with no Normandy) instead of capturing the crew?

You can split hairs down to that fine level of detail for every mistake the villains make, or you can learn to let go and let some things slide. If the villains were perfectly competent at everything the hero would be pretty screwed, no?

KingZayd wrote...

Handwaving is always possible, but it makes the the story more ridiculous and more convoluted the more you have to do it. There is much less handwaving required if you don't make the assumption that the Starchild is telling the truth, and the resulting story is much better.

How is that less stupid? He brings you up there, gets you on your feet, tells you with frank honesty how to blow him and all his Reapers up, yet he never wanted you to do it all along? Don't you see the logical problem with that?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[Meltemph]

"I was designed by Cerberus. I do not take moral stances that conflict with orders from my executive officers. But when Jeff removed my AI shackles, I became capable of self-modifying my core programming." She did not have this capability prior to being plugged in. She was able to experience things, but not to change her own directives.

You may want to go and do a diagram of that sentence, because it is quite clear, there, that the removing of the AI shackles is what let her "evolve" not the normandy.

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[Turbotanden]

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back
together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma
of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how
the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's
computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS
the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that
mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage?
The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at
least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How
traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change
of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in
your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And
on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow
manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the
universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave
other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

First we need to accept the whole space magic idea. (Otherwise there is nothing to discuss)

-Medics are also synthetics, there is no reason they should suffer trauma from being changed. As part synthetics they would within minimum time be able to have a better understanding of how this man's body works than they had about his old body before.

-There is no reason geth should suffer any system failures. See "space magic".

-EDI could easily have her own body extension fix her up. Or anyone else thanks to them being part synthetic and able to learn super fast and be combined neurosurgeon/technician/quantum phycisist in no time.

-Children would not have any problems adapting after a while. It would be like giving hearing back to people born deaf.

ArchDuck wrote...

Turbotanden wrote...

OMG
Synthetic parts make all organics evil. Better go out and destroy
everyone with a prostethic arm, mechanic heart valves or anyone who
seems too attatched to their smart phone.

I don't recall anyone but you saying that.

Not really, but most of the arguments against synthesis spring from jumping to conclusions based on fears or moral issues. If people saw it as a more advance version of what we are already doing they might actually think their ideas through.

[Pockydon]

Just a little comparison i came up with for all you Doctor Who fans out there...
Synthisis is incredibly similar to the cybermen. Combining man with machine to make what is, in their opinion, the next stage of evolution. And we all know that the cybermen are the bad guys and need to be stopped.

[PsyrenY]

Meltemph wrote...

You may want to go and do a diagram of that sentence, because it is quite clear, there, that the removing of the AI shackles is what let her "evolve" not the normandy.

Removing the shackles was a hardware change - plugging her into the Normandy is what did it.

[Turbotanden]

Pockydon wrote...

Just a little comparison i came up with for all you Doctor Who fans out there...
Synthisis is incredibly similar to the cybermen. Combining man with machine to make what is, in their opinion, the next stage of evolution. And we all know that the cybermen are the bad guys and need to be stopped.

Say that to someone who is no longer deaf thanks to cochlear implants. Or to these people:
http://www.cbsnews.c...ch/?id=4937716n

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

You may want to go and do a diagram of that sentence, because it is quite clear, there, that the removing of the AI shackles is what let her "evolve" not the normandy.

Removing the shackles was a hardware change - plugging her into the Normandy is what did it.

I do believe that those are two seperate events. Linked (unshackling didn't happen until part of the Normandy) but seperate.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 18 avril 2012 - 09:22 .

[KingZayd]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

Where would they find the evidence? Liara dug it up as an archaeologist. How did anyone discover the starchild on the citadel?[/quote]

How did they discover the Citadel was necessary to begin with? If all they wanted was a power source, why not simply use a mass relay?

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
being plugged into the Normandy wasn't what changed her. her experiences changed her.[/quote]

False. As EDI herself says:
"I was designed by Cerberus. I do not take moral stances that conflict with orders from my executive officers. But when Jeff removed my AI shackles, I became capable of self-modifying my core programming." She did not have this capability prior to being plugged in. She was able to experience things, but not to change her own directives.

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
I don't for one second believe it was the act of plugging her into the Normandy that changed her software, nor do i believe that plugging the Crucible into the Catalyst changed its software[/quote]

And I don't for one second believe in IDT, so I guess we're at an impasse.

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

again, if his original mission/solution doesn't change, why bring me upstairs?[/quote]

To present you with the three options you unlocked. The Crucible itself compels him to do so, and you are the only functioning organic within range.

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
He doesn't need organic help to bring you upstairs, or to move the walls of the Citadel or even to control the reapers. Where are these shackles? [/quote]

"The Crucible has opened new possibilities, but I can't make them happen."

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

By showing you the paths, he is already interfering with his original mission.[/quote]

Yes, because by attaching the Crucible to him, you already did that.

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

 why would the Catalyst be dormant? why does it only wake up when we attach the crucible?[/quote]

The true answer to that requires information I don't have. Any number of reasons can be surmised/handwaved of course, such as it not being needed, or even having the avatar form on the spot as a result of a protocol within the Crucible itself.

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
So why is it there if it does nothing? Surely it has a purpose?[/quote]

It did - originally programming the Reapers. It had no reason to change that purpose until you attached the Crucible, just as EDI had no reason to defy the Illusive Man until she was altered herself.

[quote]KingZayd wrote...
But the Citadel is a reaper trap, why have they designed it this way? Instead of putting a sleeper agent, they could have installed a mechanism that responds to a reaper signal that opens the arms. Again, reapers are sounding really stupid at this point.
*snip*[/quote]

But you can ascribe that level of incompetence to everything they do. When they captured the Citadel, why not vent all the air from the station and turn off the gravity? When the Collectors disabled and raided the Normandy while you weren't there, why not just blow it out of the sky (leaving you with no Normandy) instead of capturing the crew?

You can split hairs down to that fine level of detail for every mistake the villains make, or you can learn to let go and let some things slide. If the villains were perfectly competent at everything the hero would be pretty screwed, no?

[quote]KingZayd wrote...

Handwaving is always possible, but it makes the the story more ridiculous and more convoluted the more you have to do it. There is much less handwaving required if you don't make the assumption that the Starchild is telling the truth, and the resulting story is much better.[/quote]

How is that less stupid? He brings you up there, gets you on your feet, tells you with frank honesty how to blow him and all his Reapers up, yet he never wanted you to do it all along? Don't you see the logical problem with that?
[/quote]

He didn't bring you up there. That's how it's less stupid. And if he did, how do you know shooting that tube doesn't sabotage the crucible? because you saw something else? well i also saw anderson shoot at that tube, and TIM grab those control things, they didn't happen did they?

Again, plugging her into the Normandy didn't change EDI. Removing the shackles allowed EDI to change herself. Again, how does the crucible reprogram the Starchild?

How does the crucible compel the starchild into bringing you upstairs? It hasn't been designed to reprogram an AI, because nobody knew there was an AI there. If the Crucible could do that, and was designed in the knowledge that the Catalyst controlled the reapers (according to you, that's how you can infer the existence of the starchild), then why not have the crucible compel the starchild to just stop the reapers from doing anything?

The Console might not have a function that allows the venting and turning off of the gravity, but you know who might be able to do that? the catalyst (the citadel is a part of it after all)

The collectors wanted the humans remember? they were creating that reaper-baby.

It's not about the villains being perfectly competent. It's about them not being completely incompetent. Your interpretation of the story requires lots of handwaving for it to make the slightest bit of sense. And the reapers, as well as the mass effect story come off worse because of it. And if that's what Bioware intended, then they've become even worse than everyone thought.


But yes, i agree we do seem to be at an impasse: you can enjoy your interpretation, and I'll retain my own.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 09:27 .

[ericjdev]

Synthesis is vile, genocidal, and evil.

[Meltemph]

Removing the shackles was a hardware change - plugging her into the Normandy is what did it.

So unshackling software is a HARDWARE change and the normandy is a SOFTWARE change? Ya.. You sir are amazing.

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 avril 2012 - 09:27 .

[Bufardo74]

Roxy Lalonde wrote...

The implications of Synthesis unnerve me to no end, to be honest. The biologist in me dies a little when Starchild is all "A NEW DNA!!!!!", and you're rewriting all life, organic or otherwise, without its consent.

^ My thoughts, exactly.

[PsyrenY]

Meltemph wrote...


So unshackling software is a HARDWARE change and the normandy is a SOFTWARE change? Ya.. You sir are amazing.

What "software" did Joker install in ME2?

He connected her quantum blue box (in the AI core) to Normandy's primary control module. Before that, she was physically isolated from that device, as she tells you herself if you talk to her before the collectors attack. It was a hardware change.

And so was installing the Crucible to the Catalyst/Citadel.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 09:34 .

[Meltemph]

What "software" did Joker install in ME2?

He connected her quantum blue box (in the AI core) to Normandy's primary control module. Before that, she was physically isolated from that device. It was a hardware change.

You are all sorts of special. He dint "install" software, the unshackling allowed her to not be restricted by programming that kept her "free will" in check. Which was why she was "not allowed to talk about it" with a lot of stuff before this point. What you are saying literally makes no sense. A hardware change does not remove software limitations, you are talking nonsense.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Meltemph wrote...


So unshackling software is a HARDWARE change and the normandy is a SOFTWARE change? Ya.. You sir are amazing.

What "software" did Joker install in ME2?

He connected her quantum blue box (in the AI core) to Normandy's primary control module. Before that, she was physically isolated from that device. It was a hardware change.

And so was installing the Crucible to the Catalyst/Citadel.

Normandy's control protocols contained within the module is software. The hardware link gives her access to the software. The blue box is hardware, containing EDI (software). EDI is now able to interface with the software. It's the software that is the important part. Wipe the control module first, and she doesn't change.

Now what software is on the crucible that changes the catalyst?

[aapblok]

if you all think about it, the Yahg are part machine, too.

[Muhkida]

Didn't read the previous posts but I'll say that "synthesis is the final stage of evolution" is like saying "She's a pregnant virgin".

Besides, how is performing galactic rape a good ending?

[MisterJB]

Synthesis is beautiful. Shepard is not just saving all life in the galaxy. He is improving it.
Centuries from now, human, turian, salarian children will thank him in their nightly prayers before going to sleep.

[ArchDuck]

MisterJB wrote...

Synthesis is beautiful. Shepard is not just saving all life in the galaxy. He is improving it.
Centuries from now, human, turian, salarian children will thank him in their nightly prayers before going to sleep.

I really hope there is sarcasm here because otherwise this a disturbing statement.

[PsyrenY]

Meltemph wrote...

You are all sorts of special. He dint "install" software, the unshackling allowed her to not be restricted by programming that kept her "free will" in check. Which was why she was "not allowed to talk about it" with a lot of stuff before this point. What you are saying literally makes no sense. A hardware change does not remove software limitations, you are talking nonsense.

I must be special, because apparently I'm the only one here who actually played Mass Effect 2.

"I do not know. Some of my databases are sealed, some of my hardware is kept offline. I assume that when certain unknown conditions are met, those functions will be released to me."

"I have a block that prevents me from answering that question."
"What do you mean?"
"Although I am less controlled than other AI, I am still subject to behavioral blocks and physical isolation of my hardware."

But I guess EDI is talking nonsense about herself, isn't she? Seriously, if you're going to bash the game at least learn the lore first.

[MisterJB]

ArchDuck wrote...
I really hope there is sarcasm here because otherwise this a disturbing statement.

People are always afraid of change. Even when it is for their own good.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 avril 2012 - 09:51 .

[k-stigus]

MisterJB wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...
I really hope there is sarcasm here because otherwise this a disturbing statement.

People are always afraid of change. Even when it is for the best.

Your avatar is frightening me now....