387 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

aj2070 wrote...

A big issue with synthesis for me has been the geth. We know that one mobile platform does not necessarily mean one geth run time program. This has been established in the rules of the Mass Effect universe. What happens when the mobile platform suddenly becomes organic? Which program becomes dominant? Do you suddenly have a race afflicted with multiple-personality disorder? Do the non-dominant programs simply get absorbed into the dominant program's personality? It'd be good to know how this is supposed to work.

I think each program was upgraded, and it´s stated there are much more programs "living" on hubs than in mobile platforms. Did the hubs become semi-organic too? The quarian suits many moved on to help them aclimatize to Rannoch? And EDI? If I got it right the fembot was remote controlled from the AI core in the Normandy. Did the blue box become partly organic too?

The more I think about it the less sense this makes.

Ignoring all that, just imagining what would happen if tomorrow a green energy wave turned everyone into a partially synthetic being is pretty horrific. And Reapers are still around to go back to plan A when new AIs ( which would be only synthetic rather than merged) cause trouble.

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

aj2070 wrote...

A big issue with synthesis for me has been the geth. We know that one mobile platform does not necessarily mean one geth run time program. This has been established in the rules of the Mass Effect universe.

And debunked: each Geth program is now a true intelligence thanks to Legion.

Debunked how? That didn't turn them into hardware, they are still software.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 18 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[KingZayd]

lillitheris wrote...

The second hilarity I find is that the same people who argue that the Catalyst is lying about Synthesis/Control assume it's truthful about Destroy.

I mean, come on

What does he say about destroy:
That he knows you've though about it (well yeah obviously)
Wipes out all synthetics including the Geth.
The peace won't last. (it never does)

I don't believe it's being completely truthful about destroy, but even if it is, it's still better than the others. I think it's an illusion designed to make you actively choose something OVER destroy.

Everyone know that destroy is already an option. That's what it was designed as.. A WEAPON.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[PsyrenY]

Quietness wrote...

So what happens to Ecosystems as all the species are changed? Eco systems have issues coping with the introduction of 1 foreign species

What happens to people when viruses (organic life) become partially synthetic? I hope you enjoyed your cures and your vaccinations while they lasted.

They adapt, and you adapt - whether naturally or by design.

Quietness wrote...
Eternal Life and the affect on culture. Enjoy cultural stagnation.

Do you have proof that Synthesis = immortality?
And even if it does, Geth are immortal too - do they have stagnant culture?

Quietness wrote...Next one assumes 2 things, 1 is something ive seen pretty commonly accepted: 
Eternal Life + Constantly Expanding Population does what to resources? Hi there forced euthenisa to control populace so that the species dont run out of resources.

So Geth have to euthanise each other to save resources? Did you kill them all to prevent that?
Your arguments make no sense to me.

[PsyrenY]

ArchDuck wrote...

Debunked how? That didn't turn them into hardware, they are still software.

They've already dealt with "dominant personality" prior to Synthesis. Hence Legion's use of "I".

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Why do you put your faith in this Starchild?

If he wanted to kill/stop you he could have simply not said anything, or even woken you up.

He didn't wake you up, you're still bleeding out in London . Even with face value he had no reason to bring you upstairs, his "solution" was working. Shepard had failed to activate the crucible.

Optimystic_X wrote... 

aj2070 wrote...

A big issue with synthesis for me has been the geth. We know that one mobile platform does not necessarily mean one geth run time program. This has been established in the rules of the Mass Effect universe.

And debunked: each Geth program is now a true intelligence thanks to Legion.

Yeah and we know that each platform contains loads of these intelligences now. So now we just have a bunch of crazy people running round.

[Quietness]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Quietness wrote...

So what happens to Ecosystems as all the species are changed? Eco systems have issues coping with the introduction of 1 foreign species

What happens to people when viruses (organic life) become partially synthetic? I hope you enjoyed your cures and your vaccinations while they lasted.

They adapt, and you adapt - whether naturally or by design.

Quietness wrote...
Eternal Life and the affect on culture. Enjoy cultural stagnation.

Do you have proof that Synthesis = immortality?
And even if it does, Geth are immortal too - do they have stagnant culture?

Quietness wrote...Next one assumes 2 things, 1 is something ive seen pretty commonly accepted: 
Eternal Life + Constantly Expanding Population does what to resources? Hi there forced euthenisa to control populace so that the species dont run out of resources.

So Geth have to euthanise each other to save resources? Did you kill them all to prevent that?
Your arguments make no sense to me.

Your geth argument is incredibly poorly thought out champ, a lot of the Geth take up no room and are nothing more than software.

Adaptation to poison and disease takes time, lots of time, but i guess we're magically going to leap to the point of being a-ok almost immediately.

Geth have not shown any culture that ive seen. No art, no music, nothing. They observe the culture of organics.

Modifié par Quietness, 18 avril 2012 - 02:55 .

[DJBare]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

Synthesis is the type of ending that horror movies strive to achieve...the fact that Bioware thinks it is the 'best" ending tells you what kind of disconnect they have with fans, and how unlikely they can make EC fix anything...

I don't believe they do consider it the best, people are equating a high EMS with Synthesis being some kind of reward(right or wrong), instead of considering that high EMS makes you a bigger threat and the catalyst present synthesis while attempting to put you off control and destroy.
The catalyst never gives any downside to synthesis, but will tell you control will mean your death and implies you will die if you choose destroy.

I think people need to get the notion of synthesis being a reward out of their heads, the reward for high EMS is things like big ben not being destroyed or earth not being burnt to a crisp, those are the rewards for high EMS, not synthesis.

Modifié par DJBare, 18 avril 2012 - 02:55 .

[lpbarrows]

aj2070 wrote...

A big issue with synthesis for me has been the geth. We know that one mobile platform does not necessarily mean one geth run time program. This has been established in the rules of the Mass Effect universe. What happens when the mobile platform suddenly becomes organic? Which program becomes dominant? Do you suddenly have a race afflicted with multiple-personality disorder? Do the non-dominant programs simply get absorbed into the dominant program's personality? It'd be good to know how this is supposed to work.

I'd rather like to know if the Genesis Device Synthesis 'wave' affects the actual mobile platform or the actual Geth run-times themselves. Seeing as the mobile platforms are just "empty shells" (for lack of a better phrase) - the actual "Synthetic Life" of the Geth is the Geth run-time - which is software... so it seems that either the Synthesis wave turned all sufficient advanced tech (i.e. the mobile platforms) into technorganic machines - which means other tech may have been as well - or it's somehow created organic software?

Or maybe it just wasn't thought about...

I mean, the whole Synthesis ending to me is just a horrific nightmare.
I honestly can't see how this is thought of being a good thing... forcebly changing the basic structure of all life in the galaxy? no thanks.

[PsyrenY]

Quietness wrote...

Your geth argument is incredibly poorly throught out champ, a lot of the Geth take up no room and are nothing more than software.

But they do reproduce and use energy. So by your logic, eventually they would become a problem. They don't, because they have perfect control over their expansion - something that Synthesis would likely grant to everyone else.

Quietness wrote...
Adaptation to poison and disease takes time, lots of time

For organics.

Quietness wrote...
Geth have not shown any culture that ive seen. No art, no music, nothing. They observe the culture of organics.

Lack of it doesn't seem to have done much to hamper their intelligence.

[ElSuperGecko]

Optimystic_X wrote...
You have to decide that yourself. For me, it was the combination of the following:

1) He holds the cards in this situation - if he wanted to kill or stop me, he could easily do so, or just simply not speak at all. So logically, he has no reason to lie.
2) Destroy involves genociding the Geth, which I would never do.
3) Control is very vague, and if I  were to lose control for some reason, the Reaping would begin again and all the lives sacrificed thus far would be for nothing.
4) As a transhumanist, synthetic augmentation is a pretty cool idea to me.

Combine those four and I went with green. If I had more assurance around blue I would have gone with that, though, as it avoids most ethical considerations.

Fair enough.  My reasoning was quite similar to be honest, even if our conclusions were different:

• The Catalyst is the one dictating your choices, true, but I got the impression that it couldn't make the decision or implement the changes itself.  So it was trying to manipulate (NOT indoctrinate - you'd have no choice in the matter at all if that was the case) Shepard into making the decision which most benefited it and it's calculations.  It talked down Destroy, was ambivalent about Control and actively promoted Synthesis (albeit very vaguely and briefly).  So it came down to whether or not I trusted a being that had presided over the extermination and extinction of countless organic civilisations over millions of years to "do the right thing" for the current cycle of organics.
• If you believe the Catalyst, "Destroy" can potentially involve sacrificing the Geth and EDI etc - I sahy potentially, because depending on your choices in Mass Effect 2 and 3, the Geth may not have achieved full conciousness in the first place (if you side with the Quarians).  Destroy is also the only option the Catalyst talks down - it clearly did not want you to pick this option.  It was also the only option which gave me a guarantee - the end of the Reapers means the end of the cycle of extinction, full stop.
• I agree entirely on Control, my reasoning was exactly the same - how do I know my Shepard will be able to control the Reapers permenantly?  Plus, not five minutes prior, my own Shepard was totally against the concept of control when the Illusive Man presented it as a possibility.  "No one man should wield that much power".  I had seen first-hand what happened to those who tried to control the Reapers; it was a no brainer.
• I had no problem with augmenting Shepard in ME2.  But transhumanism should be a choice, not something enforced on an individual.  Shepard would be arbitraily forcing this choice on every organic life
  form.  What of those races and religions who reject physical
  augmentation of any kind?  Synthesis essentially rewrites the genetic code of  every organic in the galaxy - into a form that the Catalyst deems appropriate - without any kind of consent, and any understanding ot the potential implications or consequences.  Had I more information to hand, had the Catalyst given examples or reassurances, I may have been more willing to listen.  But as it stands, once again I could only draw upon empirical evidence - the Reapers have fused organic and synthetics before.  The resulting beings were called Husks.

[Quietness]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Quietness wrote...
Adaptation to poison and disease takes time, lots of time

For organics.

OOOOOkay I can now see that discussing this any further with you is going to be a waste of my time. You automatically ignore the other species that is also partially synthetic.

Modifié par Quietness, 18 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

He didn't wake you up, you're still bleeding out in London . Even with face value he had no reason to bring you upstairs, his "solution" was working. Shepard had failed to activate the crucible.

But you did ATTACH it, which changed him and made him realize his solution was no longer adequate.
I'm glad you agree though, he had no reason to bring you upstairs either. If he wanted you dead, he could have just never activated the elevator to begin with.

Optimystic_X wrote... 

Yeah and we know that each platform contains loads of these intelligences now. So now we just have a bunch of crazy people running round.

The Prime that talks to Raan seemed perfectly sane to me. So did Legion, who has 1183 "intelligences" inside him, yet still referred to himself as "I". Really, the baseless doomsaying is getting quite old.

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

aj2070 wrote...

A big issue with synthesis for me has been the geth. We know that one mobile platform does not necessarily mean one geth run time program. This has been established in the rules of the Mass Effect universe.

And debunked: each Geth program is now a true intelligence thanks to Legion.

Debunked how? That didn't turn them into hardware, they are still software.

They've already dealt with "dominant personality" prior to Synthesis. Hence Legion's use of "I".

That is avoiding answering the question. Does software become partially organic and are they suddenly tied to one platform?

If yes, how does it somehow kick out multiple geth in one platform? Or are they stuck? Which AI becomes dominate?

[Omilophile]

KingZayd wrote...

I agree it's possibly bad writing, but  there does seem to be more than a few things that are deliberate. Someone must have had indoctrination in mind during this. Also, TIM uses indoctrination tech on you in that encounter. That's how he makes you shoot Anderson.

I really think you're in denial, buddy. Believe me, I get it. It sucks to think that the greatest rpg company of all time (in my opinion, at least) would make an ending that terrible and not have something extremely clever planned. All the "evidence" I've seen only works if you presuppose that it's indoctrination. Otherwise it's just a bunch of lazy shortcuts taken by the writers. I still hold on to a shred of hope, but that's purely on faith, not based on any evidence I've seen.

In summation: Indoctrination is not a sound argument in this thread.  Lazy writing is.

Modifié par Omilophile, 18 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[PsyrenY]

Quietness wrote...

OOOOOkay I can now see that discussing this any further with you is going to be a waste of my time. You automatically ignore the other species that is also partially synthetic.

You mean the Quarians? The ones who received years of immunotherapy in days by letting the Geth optimize their immune systems?

How exactly does that prove your point, rather than mine?

ArchDuck wrote...

If yes, how does it somehow kick out multiple geth in one platform? Or are they stuck? Which AI becomes dominate?

There is no "kicking out." The disparate voices became a seamless gestalt (as they did within Legion) then that one voice is synthesized. One being = no craziness.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[ArchDuck]

DJBare wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

Synthesis is the type of ending that horror movies strive to achieve...the fact that Bioware thinks it is the 'best" ending tells you what kind of disconnect they have with fans, and how unlikely they can make EC fix anything...

I don't believe they do consider it the best, people are equating a high EMS with Synthesis being some kind of reward(right or wrong), instead of considering that high EMS makes you a bigger threat and the catalyst present synthesis while attempting to put you off control and destroy.
The catalyst never gives any downside to synthesis, but will tell you control will mean your death and implies you will die if you choose destroy.

I think people need to get the notion of synthesis being a reward out of their heads, the reward for high EMS is things like big ben not being destroyed or earth not being burnt to a crisp, those are the rewards for high EMS, not synthesis.

If that is the case, then its a failure on Bioware's part not to communicate that.

Normal video game design experience has taught most people to expect that if it requires more of X (resource, points, etc) to unlock an ending then it is the secret/better ending put in by the game designers to reward players that do more.

[PsyrenY]

ElSuperGecko wrote...


[*]If you believe the Catalyst, "Destroy" can potentially involve sacrificing the Geth and EDI etc - I sahy potentially, because depending on your choices in Mass Effect 2 and 3, the Geth may not have achieved full conciousness in the first place (if you side with the Quarians).  Destroy is also the only option the Catalyst talks down - it clearly did not want you to pick this option.  It was also the only option which gave me a guarantee - the end of the Reapers means the end of the cycle of extinction, full stop.

If he didn't want you to pick Destroy, why tell you about it at all? Or why not tell you "oh, to kill us, head up the blue walkway?" It makes no sense.

Also, if you side with the Quarians, the Geth die. There is no way to both save them and stop them from gaining Reaper code.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

He didn't wake you up, you're still bleeding out in London . Even with face value he had no reason to bring you upstairs, his "solution" was working. Shepard had failed to activate the crucible.

But you did ATTACH it, which changed him and made him realize his solution was no longer adequate.
I'm glad you agree though, he had no reason to bring you upstairs either. If he wanted you dead, he could have just never activated the elevator to begin with.

It's a hardware change. You attaching the Crucible, doesn't mean anything, as his solution still works. He can still kill everyone using the reapers as you failed. He didn't bring you upstairs, you're being indoctrinated.
 
 

Optimystic_X wrote... 


The Prime that talks to Raan seemed perfectly sane to me. So did Legion, who has 1183 "intelligences" inside him, yet still referred to himself as "I". Really, the baseless doomsaying is getting quite old.

Yeah i was just kidding about the crazy people thing. that wasn't mean to be taken seriously.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 03:10 .

[DangerousPuddy]

Artistic Integrity...

add chaos, suicide, panic, moral ambiguity to the list of starvation, fighting, survival and scarce resources

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...


[*]If you believe the Catalyst, "Destroy" can potentially involve sacrificing the Geth and EDI etc - I sahy potentially, because depending on your choices in Mass Effect 2 and 3, the Geth may not have achieved full conciousness in the first place (if you side with the Quarians).  Destroy is also the only option the Catalyst talks down - it clearly did not want you to pick this option.  It was also the only option which gave me a guarantee - the end of the Reapers means the end of the cycle of extinction, full stop.

If he didn't want you to pick Destroy, why tell you about it at all? Or why not tell you "oh, to kill us, head up the blue walkway?" It makes no sense.

Also, if you side with the Quarians, the Geth die. There is no way to both save them and stop them from gaining Reaper code.

[*]Because you need to actively choose something OVER the destroy option. This completes indoctrination.

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...

So it somehow merges all intelligences and freezes them in place? Or are they still allowed to move about as software in synthetic/organic platforms?

BTW all your answers are guesswork and no more valid then anyone elses answers.

@Optimystic_X it would be appreciated if you could respond to whole posts not just cherry picking which part you want to answer because its easier. I honestly want to hear if you think you have an aswer to some of this stuff.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 18 avril 2012 - 03:37 .

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

It's a hardware change. You attaching the Crucible, doesn't mean anything, as his solution still works. He can still kill everyone using the reapers as you failed. He didn't bring you upstairs, you're being indoctrinated.

Don't bother discussing that crappy Indoctrination Theory with me, I'll never agree that it's canon.

And the Catalyst tells you himself that the Crucible changed him, before you activate it, so yes it was a software change.

ArchDuck wrote...

BTW all your answers are guesswork and no more valid then anyone elses answers.

Given that the epilogue portrays Synthesis as hopeful and positive, I'd say it's more valid than "mass suicide."

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 03:11 .

[DJBare]

ArchDuck wrote...

DJBare wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

Synthesis is the type of ending that horror movies strive to achieve...the fact that Bioware thinks it is the 'best" ending tells you what kind of disconnect they have with fans, and how unlikely they can make EC fix anything...

I don't believe they do consider it the best, people are equating a high EMS with Synthesis being some kind of reward(right or wrong), instead of considering that high EMS makes you a bigger threat and the catalyst present synthesis while attempting to put you off control and destroy.
The catalyst never gives any downside to synthesis, but will tell you control will mean your death and implies you will die if you choose destroy.

I think people need to get the notion of synthesis being a reward out of their heads, the reward for high EMS is things like big ben not being destroyed or earth not being burnt to a crisp, those are the rewards for high EMS, not synthesis.

If that is the case, then its a failure on Bioware's part not to communicate that.

Normal video game design experience has taught most people to expect that if it requires more of X (resource, points, etc) to unlock an ending then it is the secret/better ending put in by the game designers to reward players that do more.

Exactly, people are not prepared for this kind of setup, 99% of gamers relate high numbers to high rewards, but the high EMS in this case only relates to the battle and/or Shepards survival if he chooses destroy, starbrat offers up Synthesis because he is now threatened by your EMS, he makes it sound like the only viable option where ALL win, of course he left out the part "Assuming direct control".

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

It's a hardware change. You attaching the Crucible, doesn't mean anything, as his solution still works. He can still kill everyone using the reapers as you failed. He didn't bring you upstairs, you're being indoctrinated.

Don't bother discussing that crappy Indoctrination Theory with me, I'll never agree that it's canon.

And the Catalyst tells you himself that the Crucible changed him, before you activate it, so yes it was a software change.

Nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel, therefore nobody could have designed the crucible to reprogram it. There is no software change. Only lies.