387 réponses à ce sujet

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

BTW all your answers are guesswork and no more valid then anyone elses answers.

Given that the epilogue portrays Synthesis as hopeful and positive, I'd say it's more valid than "mass suicide."

I didn't realize that it took away freewill and provided counseling to people. That is some magic green energy.

[KingZayd]

Omilophile wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I agree it's possibly bad writing, but  there does seem to be more than a few things that are deliberate. Someone must have had indoctrination in mind during this. Also, TIM uses indoctrination tech on you in that encounter. That's how he makes you shoot Anderson.

I really think you're in denial, buddy. Believe me, I get it. It sucks to think that the greatest rpg company of all time (in my opinion, at least) would make an ending that terrible and not have something extremely clever planned. All the "evidence" I've seen only works if you presuppose that it's indoctrination. Otherwise it's just a bunch of lazy shortcuts taken by the writers. I still hold on to a shred of hope, but that's purely on faith, not based on any evidence I've seen.

In summation: Indoctrination is not a sound argument in this thread.  Lazy writing is.

I thought it was a small hope at first too. but when i looked at it, IT started to look as if that was the only thing that they were going for. TIM definitely uses an indoctrination device, that's what his research has all been about. If that can work on Shepard, then Shepard CAN be indoctrinated.

[ElSuperGecko]

Optimystic_X wrote...
If he didn't want you to pick Destroy, why tell you about it at all? Or why not tell you "oh, to kill us, head up the blue walkway?" It makes no sense.

The Catalyst is acknowledging your intent.  I doubt any player raced to the conduit, dodging Harbinger's blasts thinking "YEAH!  I'm gonna get to the Cruicible, and I'm gonna END THIS.... by fuse all organic and synthetic life at a genetic level!  YEAH!  I'll be the big hero!"

No, when players raced to the Crucible, they were thinking of stopping the Reapers once and for all.  when they argued with TIM, they were thinking of stopping the Reapers once and for all.

The Catalyst acknowledges this, admits it's a possibility... and then attempts to change your mind.

Also, if you side with the Quarians, the Geth die. There is no way to both save them and stop them from gaining Reaper code.

Exactly - like I said, choosing the "Destroy" option does not necessarily wipe out the Geth, and they may not even have attained full conciousness in the first place.  Saying that choosing Destroy wipes out the Geth is erroneous.  If you DO save the Geth, however... or broker peace between the Geth and Quarians, well, then that makes the decision a whole lot harder.

[Geomon19]

survivor_686 wrote...

Lemme check what happens when we forcibly convert an organic being to have synthetic components...Husks!

Also, Synthetics don't have DNA. Since we're now chock full of synthetic components, it would appear we can be hacked. Anyone else think the Quarians become our new overlords in the synthesis ending?

You know that makes me think of the Geth that were uploaded into Quarian suits to help them adapt to Rannoch quicker (if you brokered peace of course). Is that suit now a sentient being? Is the Quarian trapped in there forever unable to take off the suit without killing the Geth inside or themselves? 

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

Nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel, therefore nobody could have designed the crucible to reprogram it. There is no software change. Only lies.

Whichever race changed the Crucible blueprints to incorporate the Citadel as the Catalyst must have at least suspected something was there. The original design had no catalyst - talk to Vendetta in TIM's base again.

ArchDuck wrote...

I didn't realize that it took away freewill and provided counseling to people. That is some magic green energy.

So people are naturally inclined to mass-suicide unless green energy tells them not to?

[DJBare]

Geomon19 wrote...
You know that makes me think of the Geth that were uploaded into Quarian suits to help them adapt to Rannoch quicker (if you brokered peace of course). Is that suit now a sentient being? Is the Quarian trapped in there forever unable to take off the suit without killing the Geth inside or themselves? 

It was quarian volunteers that allowed geth to upload to their suits, I suspect some conditions were met before it happened.

[PsyrenY]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

The Catalyst acknowledges this, admits it's a possibility... and then attempts to change your mind.

He merely warns you what will happen. The Geth are loaded with Reaper code, so they will be hit too. And your synthetic parts put you at risk as well. He doesn't care one way or the other if you pick Destroy, except insofar as he doesn't think it will be a long-lasting solution.

[TheFinalDoctor]

Iluvantir wrote...

The best ending would be the one that takes the most EMS to get to:

Which is, in order:

Red terrible - destory and earth is vaporised.
Red bad - destroy and earth harmed = Blue bad - Control and earth is harmed
Red good - Destory and everyone happy (except Geth and EDI) = Blue Good - Control and happy
Green - Synthesis
Red Good (same as above) with Shep living...

*engage Sarcasm mode*
So the best choice is destory if your EMS is over 4k.

There. Kill EDI and Geth to destoy reapers... obviously the best choice... *sarcasm mode off*

Actually it might be. In the crucible codex entry it say something about the biggest challenge for the crucible team would be getting it to destroy the reapers without causing unquantifiable levels of destruction. So if you have enough war assets, the crucible might have become refined to the point that it doesn't even kill non reaper synthetics. That would also explain why with an extremely low EMS, the vrucible just destroys everything.

[b2smooth]

Javik was the Catalyst in the leaked November script which indicates the Protheans were the ones who changed the Crucible designs.

Modifié par b2smooth, 18 avril 2012 - 03:25 .

[Omilophile]

KingZayd wrote...

I thought it was a small hope at first too. but when i looked at it, IT started to look as if that was the only thing that they were going for. TIM definitely uses an indoctrination device, that's what his research has all been about. If that can work on Shepard, then Shepard CAN be indoctrinated.

He CAN be, yes, but there's no proof that that's what the entire last 10 minutes or so of the game is. It's just grasping at straws because you still hold onto hope that the endings couldn't possibly be that bad. But they are. Bioware rushed the game (most likely because their new overlords gave them an unrealistic deadline) which means they took a lot of shortcuts, aka the endings.

[Sohlito]

GorrilaKing wrote...

Even though it''s the supposedly "good" ending, with everyone living, it still seems quite horrific to me.

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage? The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

Yep.

[Geomon19]

DJBare wrote...

It was quarian volunteers that allowed geth to upload to their suits, I suspect some conditions were met before it happened.

Yes but that was before green space magic came and melded it all together.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel, therefore nobody could have designed the crucible to reprogram it. There is no software change. Only lies.

Whichever race changed the Crucible blueprints to incorporate the Citadel as the Catalyst must have at least suspected something was there. The original design had no catalyst - talk to Vendetta in TIM's base again.

Vendetta supposes it's as a power source. There is no indication that there is an AI up there, and nobody has anyway of knowing that before hand if you think the Starchild is honest.  He tells you that you're the first organic standing there and that's supposedly why his solution won't work any more. How about you go talk to Vendetta again?

[ElSuperGecko]

Optimystic_X wrote...
He merely warns you what will happen. The Geth are loaded with Reaper code, so they will be hit too. And your synthetic parts put you at risk as well. He doesn't care one way or the other if you pick Destroy, except insofar as he doesn't think it will be a long-lasting solution.

Fair enough, I'll accept that.  It doesn't change my decision, but I'll accept it.

But maybe we're getting blinded by the Catalyst's idea of a "long term solution".  The Catalyst has apparently been around since the cycles of extinction started.  To the Catalyst, we're no more than a colony of ants is to a young boy with a magnifying glass and direct sunlight.  We're insignificant, our lives are brief and in the galactic scale of things, pretty pointless.

But how do we accept that point of view?  We're fighting for friends, allies, love ingterests, for the survival of all the diverse races of the galaxy and the freedom for them to create their own destiny, rather than simply follow the path that Reaper tech (the Citadel, the Mass Relays, maybe even the Crucible itself) has lead them down (incidentally, that path lead to this very problem to start with).

Again, Synthesis is the Catalyst's suggestion, it's new solution, and it offers no guarantees that it will be any less horrific than it's first.  With the little explanations and insight we're given, we can only hope, guess and assume that's not the case.

And that's without taking into account the fact that the Reapers still exist with the Synthesis ending.  Who's to say that the Catalyst won't turn to them again, if the new bio-synthetic life proves just as disappointingly chaotic as organic life did?  With Synthesis, the threat persists.  Speculation?  Yes... but speculation we don't have to worry about with the "Destroy" ending.

[ArchDuck]

Optimystic_X wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

I didn't realize that it took away freewill and provided counseling to people. That is some magic green energy.

So people are naturally inclined to mass-suicide unless green energy tells them not to?

You are saying that mass suicide (organized or otherwise) will not/can not happen. Even though green magic changing everything would probably be the most sudden, largest scale and scariest thing to happen to living things ever. For there not to be suicides and murder on a mass scale (especially in isolated non space faring cultures) requires the magic green to either provide counseling or remove free will (at least temporarily). Especially once religions get involved.

[KingZayd]

Omilophile wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I thought it was a small hope at first too. but when i looked at it, IT started to look as if that was the only thing that they were going for. TIM definitely uses an indoctrination device, that's what his research has all been about. If that can work on Shepard, then Shepard CAN be indoctrinated.

He CAN be, yes, but there's no proof that that's what the entire last 10 minutes or so of the game is. It's just grasping at straws because you still hold onto hope that the endings couldn't possibly be that bad. But they are. Bioware rushed the game (most likely because their new overlords gave them an unrealistic deadline) which means they took a lot of shortcuts, aka the endings.

TIM's control only works if Shepard is indoctrinated That's why he can control husks, and Cerberus soldiers. Shiala (and TIMs research) shows, that Reaper indoctrination is not exclusive to a particular controller. Shiala was indoctrinated by Sovereign who died, yet when the reapers come back she still hears her voices. TIM's reseach (as seen in Cerberus base video logs) allow him to make his "voice" be heard. Shepard causes the death of TIM, but there are still tons of reapers all around, therefore Shepard should still be indoctrinated. This means by the time of the Starchild meeting, Shepard IS indoctrinated.

[Quietness]

ArchDuck wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

I didn't realize that it took away freewill and provided counseling to people. That is some magic green energy.

So people are naturally inclined to mass-suicide unless green energy tells them not to?

You are saying that mass suicide (organized or otherwise) will not/can not happen. Even though green magic changing everything would probably be the most sudden, largest scale and scariest thing to happen to living things ever. For there not to be suicides and murder on a mass scale (especially in isolated non space faring cultures) requires the magic green to either provide counseling or remove free will (at least temporarily). Especially once religions get involved.

Lol don't bother he's convinced to such an amazing degree that synthesis is AMAZING he will ignore large sections of the arguement.

[daecath]

Wow, I hadn't thought of any of that. I think it's the worst option because it makes the least sense. How does it even work? Why does Shepard have to die? How does this energy field spontaneously create matter, either organic or synthetic tissue?

It's the most asinine thing I've ever heard of. I can look past starbrat's existence. I can look past his flawed logic and ridiculous premise that has already been disproven. But that synthesis option.... I keep trying to wrap my head around how they could have gotten it all so wrong, and the only thing I can come up with is either it was forced on them, ie. by EA, or severe head trauma. Even if the rumor were true that Casey Hudson & Mac Walters locked themselves in a room and came up with it alone, it still doesn't explain it. Those guys aren't idiots (despite what many on here want to believe). Their track records are pretty impressive. I simply can't believe that they could create something so bad, unless it were somehow forced on them.

[Dendio1]

Joker and EDI hugging tells me that at the very least, everyone retained their sense of self.

[PsyrenY]

b2smooth wrote...

Javik was the Catalyst in the leaked November script which indicates the Protheans were the ones who changed the Crucible designs.

That was retconned. Vendetta doesn't know which cycle changed the design, but it happened before the Protheans.

ArchDuck wrote...

You are saying that mass suicide (organized or otherwise) will not/can not happen. Even though green magic changing everything would probably be the most sudden, largest scale and scariest thing to happen to living things ever. For there not to be suicides and murder on a mass scale (especially in isolated non space faring cultures) requires the magic green to either provide counseling or remove free will (at least temporarily). Especially once religions get involved.

That is possibly how ordinary, organic, non-synthesized humans would react to a change like that. But by the time you're going to react to it, it's happened. Who's to say how you will react?

Joker got over it pretty quickly.

[ArchDuck]

Quietness wrote...

Lol don't bother he's convinced to such an amazing degree that synthesis is AMAZING he will ignore large sections of the arguement.

Yeah I have been noticing that. <_<

[PsyrenY]

Dendio1 wrote...

Joker and EDI hugging tells me that at the very least, everyone retained their sense of self.

You're wrong! Clearly they went insane and as soon as the camera panned away they found the nearest tree to string themselves up from!

Quietness wrote...

Lol don't bother he's convinced to such an amazing degree that synthesis is AMAZING he will ignore large sections of the arguement.

Whereas you're so convinced that it's horrible that you'll ignore what little evidence we do have.

But at least my speculation has something to back it up besides "but people might not like it! Green is icky!"

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 18 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[Ilkec]

The Angry One wrote...

Also, think of the primitive worlds that have no idea what's going on.
Suddenly *green light* and poof! Everybody has glowing green eyes and is apparently half-synthetic.

Hell imagine the impact of such an event on Earth, *today*. There'd be conspiracy theories, riots, mass suicides...

this is the main reason i hate the synthesis ending because its like the final stage of evolution as the god baby says but what about the yahg for example they still havent reached space flight and will sudenly become half robot, not to mention about the species that are still primitive and dont even have the wheel yet

[Wulfram]

I can see Synthesis being not necessarily totally horrific. But in that case I can't really see any reason that it'll do what the Catalyst says it will

If it leaves free will, individuality and the capability to grow and learn intact, then it's not the "final evolution of life" and it's not doing anything to deal with the supposed inevitable conflict between Synthetic and Organic and thus won't bring peace.

And it makes absolutely no sense, anyway, so I just pretend it doesn't exist.

[Quietness]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Joker and EDI hugging tells me that at the very least, everyone retained their sense of self.

You're wrong! Clearly they went insane and as soon as the camera panned away they found the nearest tree to string themselves up from!

Quietness wrote...

Lol don't bother he's convinced to such an amazing degree that synthesis is AMAZING he will ignore large sections of the arguement.

Whereas you're so convinced that it's horrible that you'll ignore what little evidence we do have.

But at least my speculation has something to back it up besides "but people might not like it! Green is icky!"

Your green ignores any outside factor other than HAY GUYZ WE GETZ TO BE CYB0GRZ ITS GR8T