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[lillitheris]

The synthesis mechanism as shown is completely nonsensical. We've puzzled on it in two threads now, and the consensus is that it's nanotech-based, and not instantaneous but spread out at least over weeks.

Another conclusion from that is that the Normandy cinematic isn't real. See the clarification thread in the signature for explanation.

[KingZayd]

Omilophile wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

TIM's control only works if Shepard is indoctrinated That's why he can control husks, and Cerberus soldiers. Shiala (and TIMs research) shows, that Reaper indoctrination is not exclusive to a particular controller. Shiala was indoctrinated by Sovereign who died, yet when the reapers come back she still hears her voices. TIM's reseach (as seen in Cerberus base video logs) allow him to make his "voice" be heard. Shepard causes the death of TIM, but there are still tons of reapers all around, therefore Shepard should still be indoctrinated. This means by the time of the Starchild meeting, Shepard IS indoctrinated.

You've only given me what you believe to be true, not actual proof. He was being controlled by TIM, but that doesn't mean everything after that was a dream sequence. Please give me proof. I desperately want to believe, but all the IT people have done is speculate based on presupposition.

Which parts do you want evidence for? (proof isn't possible, because that would be suggesting it was true beyond any reasonable doubt. I can only give you evidence)

 
this could help, look around 15 minutes. Watch those video logs. This is one of things, that recently convinced me that an indoctrination plotline didn't come out of nowhere, it's been there in the background for quite some time.

[Omilophile]

KingZayd wrote...

Which parts do you want evidence for? (proof isn't possible, because that would be suggesting it was true beyond any reasonable doubt. I can only give you evidence)

 
this could help, look around 15 minutes. Watch those video logs. This is one of things, that recently convinced me that an indoctrination plotline didn't come out of nowhere, it's been there in the background for quite some time.

Hmm...I'm afraid I must get ready for work now, but I'll try to watch it later tonight. I'll let you know what I think.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Again, making the assumption that everything the reaper overlord says is true. Good boy Saren!

Have you come up with a reason for him to bring you up in the elevator and then lie to you yet? Aside from "Oh, you're dreaming it all, don't worry!"

Have you come up with a reason for there to be a personality change in the Catalyst, when nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel in the first place? How someone could possibly have thought to put in an override AI protocol when nobody knew there was an AI? And that utilises a trigger mechanism that nobody could possibly know was there?

KingZayd wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel, therefore nobody could have designed the crucible to reprogram it. There is no software change. Only lies.

Whichever race changed the Crucible blueprints to incorporate the Citadel as the Catalyst must have at least suspected something was there. The original design had no catalyst - talk to Vendetta in TIM's base again.

Vendetta supposes it's as a power source. There is no indication that there is an AI up there, and nobody has anyway of knowing that before hand if you think the Starchild is honest.  He tells you that you're the first organic standing there and that's supposedly why his solution won't work any more. How about you go talk to Vendetta again?

 

[Shaigunjoe]

KingZayd wrote...

so how do you think the geth are transformed? because to me, it sounds like your interpretation is more organic, with tiny bits of synthetic involved.

No, I just didn't go into geth detalis.  You have to remember that geth are not the bipeds that we see, those are mearly platforms.  They are more like conscioness, or maybe just one now, depending on how you interpret the ending of the ranoch arc.

Once again, I find myself refering to The Night's Dawn trilogy, where spaceships are sentinent, as well as some space habitats.  They grow, and they give birth and eventually die, and people still live in them and ride in them, but they work as a team.

[KingZayd]

Omilophile wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Which parts do you want evidence for? (proof isn't possible, because that would be suggesting it was true beyond any reasonable doubt. I can only give you evidence)

 
this could help, look around 15 minutes. Watch those video logs. This is one of things, that recently convinced me that an indoctrination plotline didn't come out of nowhere, it's been there in the background for quite some time.

Hmm...I'm afraid I must get ready for work now, but I'll try to watch it later tonight. I'll let you know what I think.

Cool before i was just hoping and looking into reasons it was possible. now i actually believe (albeit with my own arguments) that it's true, and struggle to think that bioware could have put these details in and then missed it.

[KingZayd]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

so how do you think the geth are transformed? because to me, it sounds like your interpretation is more organic, with tiny bits of synthetic involved.

No, I just didn't go into geth detalis.  You have to remember that geth are not the bipeds that we see, those are mearly platforms.  They are more like conscioness, or maybe just one now, depending on how you interpret the ending of the ranoch arc.

Once again, I find myself refering to The Night's Dawn trilogy, where spaceships are sentinent, as well as some space habitats.  They grow, and they give birth and eventually die, and people still live in them and ride in them, but they work as a team.

We do know of a couple of sentient spaceships. (the reapers)

Oh so you think there are 2 different endstates then? not 1 middle one (which i thought was the whole theory behind synthesis). apologies if i'm misunderstanding you.

EDIT: when i say endstates, i don't mean species. I mean amounts of organicness and syntheticness.

Modifié par KingZayd, 18 avril 2012 - 04:51 .

[Dead_Meat357]

I agree with the sentiments put fourth by the OP.

My thoughts. For one thing, the synthesis ending is horrific for every form of life in the galaxy, but it goes beyond that. It creates problems for BioWare and EA.

[Maimh]

For those who do not think that people might kill themselves after synthesis. Think about this: (sorry for any triggers)

Remember 9/11? Remember the pictures of people jumping off the building because they could not see any other way?

Now think about this.
The people on Earth have been assulted by the reapers for weeks. Constant attacks from husks, who are clearly humans that have been merged with electronics.
Suddenly there is a wave of green light, and when you look down on your hands, you can clearly see circuitry fused with your flesh.
What is the first conclusion of a person who has seen people being turned into husks?

[Ice Cold J]

GorrilaKing wrote...

Even though it''s the supposedly "good" ending, with everyone living, it still seems quite horrific to me.

---Medics desperately trying to knit an injured soldier back together...green light passes through them...and, apart from the trauma of suddenly being composed of bio-mechanical parts, they don't know how the man's body works now!

---Geth suffering systems failure due to delays between the newly-introduced nerve strains and artificial ganglia.

----Normandy's computer core turning into half a brain (EDI is not her body, she IS the Normandy, her processors and blue box are stored onboard). Does that mean she needs a neurosurgeon and a technician to repair her damage? The same goes for Geth ships, since they are part of the Consensus or at least have individual Geth inside them.

---Children! How traumatising would it be for a young child to suddenly undergo a change of your looks and the way your entire body works...and see the change in your own parents??? I see psych wards practically exploding.

And these are just the things that come to mind immediately. The idea is just...terrifying, if you think too much about it.

And on another note...the Catalyst can create a beam of energy that somehow manages to affect any organic and synthetic thing in the universe....and yet it cannot simply switch into "kill reapers, leave other synthetics intact" mode??? Really, what the hell??

+1

And not EVERYONE lives... Shepard dies. which sucks no matter how you cut it.

[eoinnx03]

No! SPACE MAGIC!

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

I've been watching Doctor Who since I was a kid so ... yeah. Combining man and machine into some sort of Cyber...person just doesn't seem like a good idea. >.>

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

Have you come up with a reason for there to be a personality change in the Catalyst, when nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel in the first place? How someone could possibly have thought to put in an override AI protocol when nobody knew there was an AI? And that utilises a trigger mechanism that nobody could possibly know was there?

You don't know what the designers of the Crucible, nor the race that decided to incorporate the Catalyst in the first place, knew. How do you know they WEREN'T aware of the AI in their Catalyst?

And the obvious answer to "why did the Catalyst change" is the answer he gave you - the Crucible itself changed him. In fact, it wouldn't have even needed to be designed expressly for this purpose, to do so.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Have you come up with a reason for there to be a personality change in the Catalyst, when nobody knew there was an AI on the citadel in the first place? How someone could possibly have thought to put in an override AI protocol when nobody knew there was an AI? And that utilises a trigger mechanism that nobody could possibly know was there?

You don't know what the designers of the Crucible, nor the race that decided to incorporate the Catalyst in the first place, knew. How do you know they WEREN'T aware of the AI in their Catalyst?

And the obvious answer to "why did the Catalyst change" is the answer he gave you - the Crucible itself changed him. In fact, it wouldn't have even needed to be designed expressly for this purpose, to do so.

I do know. I've answered that TWICE already. Here you go, for a  third time: 
Vendetta supposes it's as a power source. There is no indication that there is an AI up there, and nobody has anyway of knowing that before hand if you think the Starchild is honest.  He tells you that you're the first organic standing there and that's supposedly why his solution won't work any more. How about you go talk to Vendetta again?

The crucible changed his hardware. His software remains unchanged.

Oh so the anti-reaper weapon which is designed in ignorance of there being a  reaper-control AI on the citadel, just HAPPENS to be able to reprogram him? and also, is designed to be triggered using things in this room which nobody knew was there, but "oh how lucky, there it is"?

[moonlightwolf]

You forget it will all be ok because space magic will make everything work. somehow. Out of the 3 endings synthesis is probably the least bad but none of them could be called good (or even bittersweet.) if you start thinking about them.

[Narsilsword]

synthesis demonstrates a poor understanding of the evolutionary process. The most common misconception about evolution is that there is a hierarchy or end goal that it attempts to "achieve"

[goose2989]

You'd have a bunch of these ****s running around

 

[Shaigunjoe]

KingZayd wrote...

We do know of a couple of sentient spaceships. (the reapers)

Not sure where you are going with this, on one hand if you think sentient spaceships are all bad because of the reapers, it would seem that you believe what starkid said about sythetics always killing organics.  On the other hand, were the reapers sentient spaceships?   According to the kid they were just tools.

Oh so you think there are 2 different endstates then? not 1 middle one (which i thought was the whole theory behind synthesis). apologies if i'm misunderstanding you.

EDIT: when i say endstates, i don't mean species. I mean amounts of organicness and syntheticness.

I think I may be misunderstanding you, the stuff I described both have the same DNA framework, it is the same.  But yea, I don't see why each life form would have identical amounts of organic/synthetic material.

[Shaigunjoe]

goose2989 wrote...

You'd have a bunch of these ****s running around

 

While I appreciate the Archer reference, what you show has the exact same DNA as we have now, which is not what sythesis entales.

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

I do know. I've answered that TWICE already. Here you go, for a  third time: 
Vendetta supposes it's as a power source.

Vendetta is guessing. The Protheans did not invent the Crucible, nor do they fully understand it. He doesn't even know who incorporated the Citadel into the blueprints, nor how long ago, nor why.

How about YOU go talk to Vendetta again?

KingZayd wrote...The crucible changed his hardware. His software remains unchanged.

AI are not hardware - both EDI and Legion tell you this. The Catalyst says "The Crucible changed me." The only way for this to be true is if it changed his software.

KingZayd wrote...
Oh so the anti-reaper weapon which is designed in ignorance of there being a  reaper-control AI on the citadel, just HAPPENS to be able to reprogram him? and also, is designed to be triggered using things in this room which nobody knew was there, but "oh how lucky, there it is"?

Again, only the Protheans (and the current cycle) were ignorant of the AI's existence. That is not necessarily true of past cycles.

[KingZayd]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

We do know of a couple of sentient spaceships. (the reapers)

Not sure where you are going with this, on one hand if you think sentient spaceships are all bad because of the reapers, it would seem that you believe what starkid said about sythetics always killing organics.  On the other hand, were the reapers sentient spaceships?   According to the kid they were just tools.

Oh so you think there are 2 different endstates then? not 1 middle one (which i thought was the whole theory behind synthesis). apologies if i'm misunderstanding you.

EDIT: when i say endstates, i don't mean species. I mean amounts of organicness and syntheticness.

I think I may be misunderstanding you, the stuff I described both have the same DNA framework, it is the same.  But yea, I don't see why each life form would have identical amounts of organic/synthetic material.

just trying to see what you're picturing. are these sentient spaceships similar to the reapers?(philosophy and murderous intent aside).

I just figured that they would have equal amounts so that there won't be mostly-synthetics killing the mostly-organics. That said that's completely open to interpretation, since apart from reapers and husks, we've seen nothing else that's a mixture. And for all we know, the synthesis wave could change everything uniquely.

[DJBare]

111987 wrote...

Why is Synthesis any ethically worse than Destroy or Control?

In Destroy you are committing genocide, and if you believe StarChild, are simply delaying the cycle from restarting. In Control you are essentially taking all the power in the galaxy to use yourself...one person now basically controls the entire galaxy.

Control comes down to the one who wields the power, my paragon would use it to send the Reapers back into dark space, I'd hate to think what my renegade would do with them, likely use them for a smash derby, have them racing around the system smasing into each other, actually that sounds fun, perhaps my paragon will do it also.

[Occulo]

It's creepy that your "essence" is being sent out to every organic and synthetic living being in the galaxy.

OK, so everyone's incorporated me. What traits will they inherit? Will everyone punch Khalisah now? Will she punch herself? How about my memories? If I was involved with Thane, will Kolyat suddenly have memories of being banged by his dad? If people get angry, will glowing red cracks develop on their surfaces? Are my fish suddenly going to become aware of all of their dead brethren that died of starvation? Will everyone get the sudden urge to run to the Normandy and feed my fish after this change? Does everyone understand prothean technology now? If you sabotaged the genophage, will everyone suddenly realise it?

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

I do know. I've answered that TWICE already. Here you go, for a  third time: 
Vendetta supposes it's as a power source.

Vendetta is guessing. The Protheans did not invent the Crucible, nor do they fully understand it. He doesn't even know who incorporated the Citadel into the blueprints, nor how long ago, nor why.

How about YOU go talk to Vendetta again?

KingZayd wrote...The crucible changed his hardware. His software remains unchanged.

AI are not hardware - both EDI and Legion tell you this. The Catalyst says "The Crucible changed me." The only way for this to be true is if it changed his software.

KingZayd wrote...
Oh so the anti-reaper weapon which is designed in ignorance of there being a  reaper-control AI on the citadel, just HAPPENS to be able to reprogram him? and also, is designed to be triggered using things in this room which nobody knew was there, but "oh how lucky, there it is"?

Again, only the Protheans (and the current cycle) were ignorant of the AI's existence. That is not necessarily true of past cycles.

LOL, you're the one who told me to talk to vendetta again a few pages back, so I told you what he said.

You haven't addressed the fact that the starchild himself says that you're the first organic to ever be there, so tell me again: how did the creators of the crucible (the people who modified it to use the citadel, who were not the original creators of the crucible)  know about that room and the starchild? Psychic powers?

[survivor_686]

Occulo wrote...

It's creepy that your "essence" is being sent out to every organic and synthetic living being in the galaxy.

OK, so everyone's incorporated me. What traits will they inherit? Will everyone punch Khalisah now? Will she punch herself? How about my memories? If I was involved with Thane, will Kolyat suddenly have memories of being banged by his dad? If people get angry, will glowing red cracks develop on their surfaces? Are my fish suddenly going to become aware of all of their dead brethren that died of starvation? Will everyone get the sudden urge to run to the Normandy and feed my fish after this change? Does everyone understand prothean technology now? If you sabotaged the genophage, will everyone suddenly realise it?

I actually chuckled as I imagined the horde of Obsessive Sapients hunting for the Normandy, just to feed the fish.