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[wantedman dan]

KillerHappyFace wrote...

Good god.

This is one hell of a flame storm, all caused by a single post from a Bioware employee and the abject hatred of a disappointed fanbase.

And people wonder why Bioware isn't telling us anything.

I suggest we all listen to some soothing music and calm down.

I've never understood why people like you get so confused as to why Mike and the devs get flamed like this. 

It's rather obvious: they're not willing to take their lumps and move on to do their best with the EC, instead relying on shady PR tactics and tactical silence. It's the natural reaction of a person to get angry when they're wronged and when they don't have an avenue to dispell of this anger, they seek ways to do it which usually entails finding an echo chamber where everyone will agree with them. From there, it gets worse and worse.

They've brought everything on themselves; I feel no sympathy for Bioware.

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...

I've never understood why people like you get so confused as to why Mike and the devs get flamed like this. 

It's rather obvious: they're not willing to take their lumps and move on to do their best with the EC, instead relying on shady PR tactics and tactical silence. It's the natural reaction of a person to get angry when they're wronged and when they don't have an avenue to dispell of this anger, they seek ways to do it which usually entails finding an echo chamber where everyone will agree with them. From there, it gets worse and worse.

They've brought everything on themselves; I feel no sympathy for Bioware.

They probally are, it is called the higher-ups putting the clamps down on what they say and if they say anything it goes through the marketing scrub. This is a common thing to happen of game forums sites.

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

I've never understood why people like you get so confused as to why Mike and the devs get flamed like this. 

It's rather obvious: they're not willing to take their lumps and move on to do their best with the EC, instead relying on shady PR tactics and tactical silence. It's the natural reaction of a person to get angry when they're wronged and when they don't have an avenue to dispell of this anger, they seek ways to do it which usually entails finding an echo chamber where everyone will agree with them. From there, it gets worse and worse.

They've brought everything on themselves; I feel no sympathy for Bioware.

it is called the higher-ups putting the clamps down on what they say and if they say anything it goes through the marketing scrub. This is a common thing to happen of game forums sites.

Which is what I just said. If you have proof to the otherwise, it's time to bring it forward.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 19 avril 2012 - 02:26 .

[iorveth1271]

Torrible wrote...

How to be pathetic:

Step 1: Constantly cry for attention. "Why the radio silence? Why not talk to us?"
Step 2: Wait impatiently for any response from the devs. If there is a response, move to step 3. Otherwise repeat step 1.
Step 3: Accuse dev of lying and cry more about being emotionally and psychologically hurt.

Disclaimer: The above may not apply to you. If it does, feel free to flame me.

That sums up what these forums have degenerated into.

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

I've never understood why people like you get so confused as to why Mike and the devs get flamed like this. 

It's rather obvious: they're not willing to take their lumps and move on to do their best with the EC, instead relying on shady PR tactics and tactical silence. It's the natural reaction of a person to get angry when they're wronged and when they don't have an avenue to dispell of this anger, they seek ways to do it which usually entails finding an echo chamber where everyone will agree with them. From there, it gets worse and worse.

They've brought everything on themselves; I feel no sympathy for Bioware.

it is called the higher-ups putting the clamps down on what they say and if they say anything it goes through the marketing scrub. This is a common thing to happen of game forums sites.

Which is what I just said. If you have proof to the otherwise, it's time to bring it forward.

You said they are hiding behind them stating it is their choice of the matter. I do not see you saying the upper-management of EA is telling them to shut the hell up. The evidence is what we see now. Also from my own history the backlash City of Heroes had after Archietch and Incarnates caused aside from staff repositioning and firings/layoffs. It went silent and everything that we use to have with very open devs went into the silent not going anywhere unless marketing approves it.

It is usualy corporate shindigs. 

[sAxMoNkI]

Brockxz wrote...

ow, you are really short sighted and with such thinking you will never be able to work as PR or any other such work. Now hear me carefully, They know trust has been lost and they can't go wrong with this one. The thing it is free of charge is because there is no way they can make us pay for this after all that contraversy with ending. They will got eaten by media and community even if EC will be greatest thing ever done if they will star5t to monetize on that.
And now why would Gamble lie to us this time? What if this leak was done intentionally. You can easily say it' s not true if you see reaction from fans like you see now. Who can prove other way that it is real. Noone. But they gain really good look at what won't work in EC DLC. That's because I would have done that way so that I know for real what will work and what not. That kinf of tactics have been used all over the industry to find what works and what not before you actually do something.

And in the end why would we need to trust them now? I really don't see a reason for trust to be gain just yet. After great EC, maybe but it won't be that easy for them to get everyone's trust in one day. Even after great EC DLC most of us will still have trust issues.

Yeah, I acknowledged my mistake on this yesterday. I get your point, if they want to get us back in a position to buy DLC then they have to keep us sweet and hope the EC fixes the rift between Bioware and us.
The truth is I'm just tired of all the "are the messing with us/ is this the truth or corporate double speak?" and wanted to give Gamble the benefit of the doubt on this one.

EDIT: And if it is the case that this 'leak' was just a clever way of assessing fan reaction to a current idea they were chucking around, at least that means they are trying to shape the EC based on fan feedback...that can only be a good thing in the end right?

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 19 avril 2012 - 02:43 .

[Cirreus]

(Tin Foil Hat) I'm still curious as to the speed of debunk. The devil on my right shoulder tells me EA/Bioware will test the ExCut with target audiences, but they likely will leak ideas out from deniable sources (such as 4chan) to see the community reactions.

Modifié par Cirreus, 19 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[NUM13ER]

It's nonsense. Some anonymous troll throws out some things that common sense tells you will probably be in the extended cut whilst painting himself as an employee. So when the real cut comes out and has a few of these things he'll declare himself right. Regardless if he was or not.

Plus destroy being called the worst ending? It's the only ending that destroys the Reapers outright and the only choice which leaves Shep alive. I think if that Shepard ends up being reunited with his crew the other two endings will be relegated to morbid curiosity and deliberately "bad" playthroughs.

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

You said they are hiding behind them stating it is their choice of the matter. I do not see you saying the upper-management of EA is telling them to shut the hell up. The evidence is what we see now. Also from my own history the backlash City of Heroes had after Archietch and Incarnates caused aside from staff repositioning and firings/layoffs. It went silent and everything that we use to have with very open devs went into the silent not going anywhere unless marketing approves it.

It is usualy corporate shindigs. 

Well at least you provided some context, this time. That in no way contradicts the fact that they're not willing to take their punishment, however. It, in fact, strengthens that argument.

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...

Well at least you provided some context, this time. That in no way contradicts the fact that they're not willing to take their punishment, however. It, in fact, strengthens that argument.

EA might not want to since that would hurt the shareholders confidence in the stocks. The devs no matter what if they want to keep a job and have a future in the industry are screwed in this point, this does not mean they are hiding cause they do not want to be critizied or flamed. They may want to go out and tell us their feelings towards this, we do not know since we are not in Alberta with them and know their mindset. To say either wise is disingenious.


*EDIT*
Just to add to this, I do wish they would speak out and help us out, but I am assuming EA would put them out in the field soon afterwards, since that would go against some policy they have.

Modifié par Mylia Stenetch, 19 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

EA might not want to since that would hurt the shareholders confidence in the stocks. The devs no matter what if they want to keep a job and have a future in the industry are screwed in this point, this does not mean they are hiding cause they do not want to be critizied or flamed. They may want to go out and tell us their feelings towards this, we do not know since we are not in Alberta with them and know their mindset. To say either wise is disingenious.


*EDIT*
Just to add to this, I do wish they would speak out and help us out, but I am assuming EA would put them out in the field soon afterwards, since that would go against some policy they have.

You're implying that personal honor is not as important as maintaining a measly existence as a hated and vilified game developer?

[Sesshaku]

wantedman dan wrote...
They've brought everything on themselves; I feel no sympathy for Bioware.

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...

You're implying that personal honor is not as important as maintaining a measly existence as a hated and vilified game developer?

I am not implying it, they sold there honour cause we do not know what happens behind closed doors. There are a lot of times I am pissed with with what my company (a Canadian ISP) does. I voiced my opinions to my bosses hoping it would go to their bosses and they is all I can do in the matter. 

I have had friend come up and complain to me about the same issues I called out on, but cannot say something about it cause it will get skewed and misinterpreded. The developers probally called out their complaints, but if it does not get the rubber stamp then it means it is not voiced. They could be fighting for changes they we want, they could be saying screw the fans I am making a gold plated statue in my name. We do not know, it does suck, is sucks a lot. To say they have gave up their honour cause we do not know what they are thinking is very harsh. 

I will add I do know about this with some issues that came up with WoW and Twitter. I did say something to a friend of mine suppose to be kept secret and never spoken to anyone else (off the books). First thing I see is what I said all over twitter cause of the twitter issue and on FB twisting the words I said making it look like a company statement. People get fired for this all the time, we had people fired for leaking info. This is corporate life it is work and obey or die (buisness means).

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

I am not implying it, they sold there honour cause we do not know what happens behind closed doors. There are a lot of times I am pissed with with what my company (a Canadian ISP) does. I voiced my opinions to my bosses hoping it would go to their bosses and they is all I can do in the matter. 

I have had friend come up and complain to me about the same issues I called out on, but cannot say something about it cause it will get skewed and misinterpreded. The developers probally called out their complaints, but if it does not get the rubber stamp then it means it is not voiced. They could be fighting for changes they we want, they could be saying screw the fans I am making a gold plated statue in my name. We do not know, it does suck, is sucks a lot. To say they have gave up their honour cause we do not know what they are thinking is very harsh. 

I will add I do know about this with some issues that came up with WoW and Twitter. I did say something to a friend of mine suppose to be kept secret and never spoken to anyone else (off the books). First thing I see is what I said all over twitter cause of the twitter issue and on FB twisting the words I said making it look like a company statement. People get fired for this all the time, we had people fired for leaking info. This is corporate life it is work and obey or die (buisness means).

Circular logic is circular. If you're going to idly abide by corporate policy, you must and will accept the consequences with the fanbase. Bioware is finding this out first-hand. 

Said corporate policy is there so they can keep the distance between the customer and the corporation, thereby allowing them to... wait for it, not take responsibility for their actions.

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...

Circular logic is circular. If you're going to idly abide by corporate policy, you must and will accept the consequences with the fanbase. Bioware is finding this out first-hand. 

Said corporate policy is there so they can keep the distance between the customer and the corporation, thereby allowing them to... wait for it, not take responsibility for their actions.

If they were not going to take responsibility  they would not be no free dlc with about the ending coming up. They would of told you to suck it up princess and move along. Bioware is taking the heat from it from both EA and fans. That is why EA is telling them to shut their mouths. EA is doing damage control, while Bioware is out to take the flack.

I have never said Bioware is scapegoating or hiding from the consequnces, they are facing it. They are probally getting reports from EA which they are not happy with, they are seeing what their fanbase is saying, and are stuck in a place no one wants to be in.

You can call me an appolgist or fanboi etc. I know I do not want to be in the devs position, I was there many of times before with anyone who would read something you said with a fine tooth comb and take the wrong thing out of it (we are human after all) and ruin someone's livelyhood, that is not a fun position to be in. One slip of the tounge that could leave you without a job is not a glorious position to be in.

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

If they were not going to take responsibility  they would not be no free dlc with about the ending coming up. They would of told you to suck it up princess and move along. Bioware is taking the heat from it from both EA and fans. That is why EA is telling them to shut their mouths. EA is doing damage control, while Bioware is out to take the flack.

I have never said Bioware is scapegoating or hiding from the consequnces, they are facing it. They are probally getting reports from EA which they are not happy with, they are seeing what their fanbase is saying, and are stuck in a place no one wants to be in.

You can call me an appolgist or fanboi etc. I know I do not want to be in the devs position, I was there many of times before with anyone who would read something you said with a fine tooth comb and take the wrong thing out of it (we are human after all) and ruin someone's livelyhood, that is not a fun position to be in. One slip of the tounge that could leave you without a job is not a glorious position to be in.

Accepting responsibility =/= placating and dazzling customers with free things. Accepting responsibility = apologizing for f*cking up, and explaining how they're going to rectify it. 

They're doing exactly what you detailed in the second paragraph: they are scapegoating and they are hiding from the consequences. There are no easy ways to get out of this debacle, that I concede. But the most honorable is accepting responsibility for their actions, which they have not done.

Believe me, I've been there. To get yourself out of a hole that you dug for yourself, you don't keep digging. It keeps getting hotter and hotter if you do. What you're not comprehending is that they can get themselves out of this, but it requires more integration with the fan base, their customers.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 19 avril 2012 - 03:53 .

[DJBare]

wantedman dan wrote...


You're implying that personal honor is not as important as maintaining a measly existence as a hated and vilified game developer?

*Tongue firmly in cheek* Feeding family, maintaining a roof over their heads or honor?, hmm, that's a tough one.

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...

Accepting responsibility =/= placating and dazzling customers with free things. Accepting responsibility = apologizing for f*cking up, and explaining how they're going to rectify it. 

They're doing exactly what you detailed in the second paragraph: they are scapegoating and they are hiding from the consequences. There are no easy ways to get out of this debacle, that I concede. But the most honorable is accepting responsibility for their actions, which they have not done.

Believe me, I've been there. To get yourself out of a hole that you dug for yourself, you don't keep digging. It keeps getting hotter and hotter if you do. What you're not comprehending is that they can get themselves out of this, but it requires more integration with the fan base, their customers.

A large corporation known as EA is NOT going to appologise, they are not going to go out and say we messed up guys. Shareholders do not like this, they came out with some free dlc "clarify" ending etc, that is how they appologize, this is how the spin of marketers work.

Bioware has not control over this point unless they have become EA, they are just a division of them and have to go with thier overloards now. The only time I have ever seen my company "appologize" is when they write up a disater report on a large outage. Then we never say we made a mistake we say some PR spin and something generic to explain the issue and the resolvement.

I am not sure on your expierence in life so I am not going to critizie you on this cause it is true. Still from what I have seen while I would much prefer to be honest with our customers when I had to deal with them, that goes to upper management and to PR scrubbing once I write the report which I know has been ripped apart and written a new. That is how massive corps like EA work they will through out something small to them (Bioware) to the fire while skirting around other issues. Bioware is just caught in the fire of shut up and take it.

[wantedman dan]

DJBare wrote...

*Tongue firmly in cheek* Feeding family, maintaining a roof over their heads or honor?, hmm, that's a tough one.

Heh. Be a rebel. Set a new trend. Doing the right thing may hurt at first, but it'll definitely pay off in the long run.

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

A large corporation known as EA is NOT going to appologise, they are not going to go out and say we messed up guys. Shareholders do not like this, they came out with some free dlc "clarify" ending etc, that is how they appologize, this is how the spin of marketers work.

The fact that their egos are so massive in scope as to not be able to admit wrongdoing is not my problem. As I was telling DJBare, it may hurt at first, but it will pay off in the long haul.

Bioware has not control over this point unless they have become EA, they are just a division of them and have to go with thier overloards now. The only time I have ever seen my company "appologize" is when they write up a disater report on a large outage. Then we never say we made a mistake we say some PR spin and something generic to explain the issue and the resolvement.

Again, not my problem. If there's a problem, you fix it--corporate culture included.

I am not sure on your expierence in life so I am not going to critizie you on this cause it is true. Still from what I have seen while I would much prefer to be honest with our customers when I had to deal with them, that goes to upper management and to PR scrubbing once I write the report which I know has been ripped apart and written a new. That is how massive corps like EA work they will through out something small to them (Bioware) to the fire while skirting around other issues. Bioware is just caught in the fire of shut up and take it. 

Again, for the third time, not my problem. Call me idealistic or what have you, once you set the standard of being less-than-truthful, that's what your repuation will be. Shareholders will then buy into the company expecting that. However, if you set the standard of being honest with your customers and taking responsibility for your actions, you will have buy-in expecting such.

It's all about trust, and quite frankly, EA and Bioware have none of it.

[Drogonion]

LOL.

If this is true - and his description meshes with my expectations - then it is FAIL.

If this is all it will be, don't bother. It is a waste of resources and won't work to build good will with enough fans to make it worth the effort.

Seriously re-think what you're doing: the current endings are thematically broken. Either provide alternate ones or do nothing at all.

Modifié par Drogonion, 19 avril 2012 - 04:11 .

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...
Again, for the third time, not my problem. Call me idealistic or what have you, once you set the standard of being less-than-truthful, that's what your repuation will be. Shareholders will then buy into the company expecting that. However, if you set the standard of being honest with your customers and taking responsibility for your actions, you will have buy-in expecting such.

It's all about trust, and quite frankly, EA and Bioware have none of it.

Okay you are an idealist, I am a pessimist. As I said ealier in this thread I would like Bioware to come out and say we made a mistake trying something new, they wont though. Lying has become synonomis with corporations for quote a while now, to change it would be nothing short of moving mountains to these people. Shareholders will never like weakness to be shown by surrenduring, that is what it looks like for this.

To trust, how can your trust a corpatation, they are not humans they do not have emotions, they are designed to do one thing, EA, and other publishers is to push products (games) to the masses to make profits. To just say EA is bad then you need to accepted all publishers do not tell truths about what they say.

[wantedman dan]

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

Okay you are an idealist, I am a pessimist. As I said ealier in this thread I would like Bioware to come out and say we made a mistake trying something new, they wont though. Lying has become synonomis with corporations for quote a while now, to change it would be nothing short of moving mountains to these people. Shareholders will never like weakness to be shown by surrenduring, that is what it looks like for this.

To trust, how can your trust a corpatation, they are not humans they do not have emotions, they are designed to do one thing, EA, and other publishers is to push products (games) to the masses to make profits. To just say EA is bad then you need to accepted all publishers do not tell truths about what they say.

It seems like you're just trying to argue past me. :/

How can you trust a corporation? You place trust in corporations every day; you place trust that when you buy it your car will start every morning, you place trust that when you buy your shiny new laptop that it will give you years of service, and you trust that when something eventually goes wrong, they'll have the capacity to fix it. Don't spoon feed me that you can't "trust" something just because it's not a person. What nonsense.

I'm saying there's something wrong with corporate culture when you can't admit a mistake. 

[Mylia Stenetch]

wantedman dan wrote...


I'm saying there's something wrong with corporate culture when you can't admit a mistake. 

I have never denied you on this. I have stated that they never will cause they (the shareholders etc) will not like this cause they think it is a sign of weakness. I am just saying that while it would be nice, the appologies we get from them are 

1. Never fully truthful
2. Full of PR spin
3. Give out free stuff to placate us.

So we got the best appology we will ever get from a corporation. For the trust, to me I cannot fully trust a corporation (that is me). I can trust in the mechanic that worked on my car, cause he had the best intentions to build the best. I have trust in my manager that he has the best intentions for me. I trust the myself for builing my PC and IT dept to make sure my laptop works. 

These are apart of a corporation yes, the only thing I truly trust in a corporation is that there is an agreement that I get service I pay for. 

[Chris Priestly]

Ok I really didn't think I needed to say anything about this what with it coming from 4Chan and all, but obviously people are grasping at any possibility, so:

This is fake. It is plausible speculation, but it is pretty much all inaccurate.

I know people won't believe until they see the real thing this summer, but this is fake.