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[Puppy Love]

I've been able to explain the hows and why of Loghain to my friends and myself having read the books and beaten the game on multiple angles.  There is however one glaring inconsistency that makes no sense and I can never see Loghain doing.  What I'm asking for is if anyone can give me an explanation which makes any sense at all.

Why would Loghain trust Howe in any way, let alone make him his lead advisor.  Loghains anti-orlesian paranoia wouldn't allow it.  Howe sided with Orlesians until the the last moment when he realized his side was losing.  For all Loghain knows, Howe is an opportunist who's already sided with Orlais once when it was convenient. 

Shoot Loghain's paranoia led to his sending an assasin to kill Arl Eamon because he was too close to the king and was married to an orlesian.  The last thing Loghain wanted is more people telling Cailin to let the orlesians in.

Heck I don't even think Loghain's "betrayal" at Ostagar is so clear.  The signal came too late.  Loghain is smart enough to pick that up.  Remember Alistair "I'm sure missed the signal, quick light the pyre."

Sending the last of the army into a trap, or unwinnable battle leaving Fereldan open with no one to tell anyone what happened was suicide for everyone.

But like I said WHY would Loghain even let Howe ex betrayer of Fereldan to the Orlesians even live given any oportunity to kill him.

Modifié par Faerieheart, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Original182]

I remember talking to Anora about whether Loghain trusts Howe or not. She said that "trust" is probably a strong word. Loghain knew all about Howe, but he needed Howe's political mind.

[Galad22]

Faerieheart wrote...

Heck I don't even think Loghain's "betrayal" at Ostagar is so clear.  The signal came too late.  Loghain is smart enough to pick that up.  Remember Alistair "I'm sure missed the signal, quick light the pyre."

Sending the last of the army into a trap, or unwinnable battle leaving Fereldan open with no one to tell anyone what happened was suicide for everyone.

This part annoys me little seriously. There were Loghains own men in the tower whose job was to light the beacon, we were a backup. And another thing no he could not know that signal came too late for if he did why was the signal needed in the first place.

But seriously who know why he allied himself with Howe, propably because they both wanted more than they had.

[felix4200]

Cause he knows that Howe is a greedy bastard, that holds no allegiance to Orlais?



Indeed, this makes Howe extremely predictable and especially useful during the current situation. Loghain got power and titles he really doesn't need, and can bestow upon Howe to get his loyalty, titles Howe have no chance of getting if he betrays Loghain.

[AG3]

If you play human noble and ask Howe why he betrayed your family, he'll say that your parents were far too friendly with the Orlesians and calls them traitors. So no, I don't think Howe has much to do with Orlais. Howe was an opportunist and a manipulator who played on Loghain's paranoia to further his own ends. Maybe he would have sided with Orlais if the tide were to turn against Ferelden to that degree, but until then he would have stayed an advisor to Loghain who would encourage his ruthless and unscrupulous way of trying to lead the country. Loghain needed allies anyway considering how he was going about things.

As for the signal, I very much doubt Loghain had any intention of responding to it. If anything, he probably told his men not to light the pyre and/or lured the darkspawn into the tower so that he could excuse his lack of joining the battle with "the signal never came". When the player however managed to light it, he was forced to retreat, making it fairly obvious that he was leaving the king to die.

Modifié par AG3, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:14 .

[felix4200]

@ Galad. The men in the tower wasn't supposed to die, they were killed by darkspawn before the battle remember?



The only ones Loghain actually betrayed are the ones in the actual battle.

[Suron]

well if you actually think about it..and how it played out..it's obvious that Loghain probably knew the tower was going to be taken..or at least had his men stationed there NOT to light the beacon...so he could use failed lighting as an excuse as to why he left the field of battle.



and is why he waited until it was lit to leave...I mean seriously..think about what you're saying for 2 seconds...why would loghain still be sitting there if he supposedly KNEW the beacon came too late for him to charge?



what you're suggesting makes no sense.



Loghain wasn't expecting the beacon...and is why he waited for it to be lit to leave.



unless he already had it planned there's no reason for him to have left when it was lit.



like I said...use some intelligence and think about it.

[izmirtheastarach]

Arl Howe didn't side with the Orlesians himself, his family did. Keep in mind that was like 30 years prior to the events of the game. Howe resented Teryn Cousland for make nice with the Orlesians after the war, so it's obvious he hates them.

[HarlequinDream]

Please ignore. Will edit in a moment.

Modifié par HarlequinDream, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:20 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Uhm, the reason that Loghain's men were in the tower and he objected to the Grey Warden's being stationed there is because he was planning on retreating the whole time. He also authorized Howe to murder the Teryn of Cousland several weeks before Ostagar so his betrayal is both complete and plain as day. Loghain fans... ::eyeroll::

[Galad22]

felix4200 wrote...

@ Galad. The men in the tower wasn't supposed to die, they were killed by darkspawn before the battle remember?

The only ones Loghain actually betrayed are the ones in the actual battle.

Yes I know, it just that, if beacon was lit too late and that would have been the trap in Ostagar Loghain keep on about. Then essentially in Loghains mind his own men lit beacon in tower on Ishal purposedly too late to get Loghain himself in a trap.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and he can't blame the warden for this because we were only supposed to be a backup for his own men, to ensure that beacon was lit.

Hope I explained this so that it makes sense.

I actually think too that beacon was never supposed to be lit at all.

Modifié par Galad22, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:25 .

[Puppy Love]

People other than his followers were sent to light the beacon. Loghain isn't retarded. He knew the wardens could light a simple pyre, come on.



He has a sense of the battle field. He knew the battle was going on too long. He was however hesitant to leave until the pyre was lit and he was forced to make a decision. One he was not happy with. Which is why he got so angry at his trusted second questioning him, he wasn't happy with it either but it's what had to be done. The whole time you see him throughout he's stressed and frustrated, he doesn't want to rule he's doing what he thinks is best for Fereldan.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

felix4200 wrote...

Cause he knows that Howe is a greedy bastard, that holds no allegiance to Orlais?

Indeed, this makes Howe extremely predictable and especially useful during the current situation. Loghain got power and titles he really doesn't need, and can bestow upon Howe to get his loyalty, titles Howe have no chance of getting if he betrays Loghain.

This and only this... Howe is a known quantity. Make sure your paycheck is always the bigger paycheck and he is your lap cat with an uzi.

Modifié par DeathWyrmNexus, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[HarlequinDream]

Galad22 wrote...

felix4200 wrote...

@ Galad. The men in the tower wasn't supposed to die, they were killed by darkspawn before the battle remember?

The only ones Loghain actually betrayed are the ones in the actual battle.

Yes I know, it just that, if beacon was lit too late and that would have been the trap in Ostagar Loghain keep on about. Then essentially in Loghains mind his own men lit beacon in tower on Ishal purposedly too late to get Loghain himself in a trap.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and he can't blame the warden for this because we were only supposed to be a backup for his own men, to ensure that beacon was lit.

Hope I explained this so that it makes sense.

I actually think too that beacon was never supposed to be lit at all.

I personally don't think Loghain expected the tower to be taken, but I definitely think that the beacon was never meant to be lit.  Loghain didn't want th Gray Wardens there because they would make sure it was lit.

Like someone else said-- he had no idea if the tower had missed the signal when the beacon was lit. So, yes, maybe you were late, but he couldn't have known that.

Plus I found the sheer vicious tone in his voice when Cauthrien tried to question the retreat telling enough.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Now here is a thought, a wrinkle in your Loghain isn't a traitor lulz thinking...



Howe attacked the Couslands... Think about what Cailan said. Really think about it. Cailan was asking himself to your face why Howe would be that stupid as he will just march his army north and kick his ass handily.



Now put that into perspective. Howe was whose right hand man? Loghain's. Who was looking very suspicious when he talked of Cailan having glory after the plan was laid out? Loghain.



Hmmm, it is almost as if the attack on the Couslands was made because Howe had insider information from his boss man about what was going to happen to the king. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Galad22]

Faerieheart wrote...

People other than his followers were sent to light the beacon. Loghain isn't retarded. He knew the wardens could light a simple pyre, come on.

He has a sense of the battle field. He knew the battle was going on too long. He was however hesitant to leave until the pyre was lit and he was forced to make a decision. One he was not happy with. Which is why he got so angry at his trusted second questioning him, he wasn't happy with it either but it's what had to be done. The whole time you see him throughout he's stressed and frustrated, he doesn't want to rule he's doing what he thinks is best for Fereldan.

Look Faerie, there were his own men stationed in the tower and they were supposed to lit the beacon, we were just backup. To ensure that it was done as Cailan said.

And if he had a sense of Battlefield, then he should have just attacked when the time was right. Again beacon wouldn't have been needed, and makes no sense.

[Bullets McDeath]

Faerieheart wrote...

People other than his followers were sent to light the beacon. Loghain isn't retarded. He knew the wardens could light a simple pyre, come on.

He has a sense of the battle field. He knew the battle was going on too long. He was however hesitant to leave until the pyre was lit and he was forced to make a decision. One he was not happy with. Which is why he got so angry at his trusted second questioning him, he wasn't happy with it either but it's what had to be done. The whole time you see him throughout he's stressed and frustrated, he doesn't want to rule he's doing what he thinks is best for Fereldan.

You really need to look at the situation in Ostagar a little closer. It is clear from the beginning he always planned to retreat. He had planned his betrayal weeks before Ostagar and simply left Cailan to his fate on the battlefield, as was *always* his plan. If Logahain is such a great guy, why does he authorize the murder of the Couslands? Why does he try to take the throne from his own daughter? Sell a free people into slavery? Hire a blood mage to poison the only living advisor to the Throne? Proclaim to be fighting the Blight and then hire assassins to kill the only two Grey Wardens left in Ferelden? Not to mention spreading lies about the Grey Wardens betraying the king, when he absolutely knows behind the shadow of a doubt that is not what is happened? Another action against the only people who have any chance of stopping the Blight (which if you've read the novels, you know Loghain is aware of why it takes a Grey Warden to do the job so he's being selfish and evil yet again.)

He might not be doing things for "evil" reasons in his mind, but you give him far too much credit. He's a traitorous, slanderous, power-hungry kingslayer who will stop at nothing for What's Best for Ferelden (which only HE can provide, naturally).

Modifié par outlaworacle, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

outlaworacle wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

People other than his followers were sent to light the beacon. Loghain isn't retarded. He knew the wardens could light a simple pyre, come on.

He has a sense of the battle field. He knew the battle was going on too long. He was however hesitant to leave until the pyre was lit and he was forced to make a decision. One he was not happy with. Which is why he got so angry at his trusted second questioning him, he wasn't happy with it either but it's what had to be done. The whole time you see him throughout he's stressed and frustrated, he doesn't want to rule he's doing what he thinks is best for Fereldan.

If he's such a great guy, why does he authorize the murder of the Couslands? You really need to look at the situation in Ostagar a little closer. It is clear from the beginning he always planned to retreat. He had planned his betrayal weeks before Ostagar and simply left Cailan to his fate on the battlefield, as was *always* his plan. Again, if Loghain is such a great guy, why does he try to take the throne from his own daughter? Sell a free people into slavery? Hire a blood mage to poison the only living advisor to the Throne? Proclaim to be fighting the blight and then hire assassins to kill the only two Grey Wardens left in Ferelden? Spread lies about the only order who can hope to defeat the Blight when he knows *damn* well they didn't betray the King as he says.

He might not be doing thing for "evil" reasons in his mind, but you give him far too much credit. He's a traitorous, slanderous, power-hungry kingslayer who will stop at nothing for What's Best for Ferelden (which only HE can provide, naturally).

You and I are of the same mind, my friend. *points to above post*
Though I will say that his denial of Grey Warden usefulness is more a nod to the overarching story concept that nobody knows truly why the Grey Wardens are needed. Duncan makes that clear as does Riordan. Other than that, I am with you 1000000%!

[Curlain]

Loghain allied with Howe because he needed his political mind, and someone who could do the rest of the wet work (such as taking out the Couslands, helping to aid arranging the Arl of Redcliffe's poisoning, hiring assassins, and doing things Loghain as first commander of Ferelden's armies and then Regent couldn't be seen doing, or afford to be directly connected with). And he allied with Howe because Loghain knew exactly the kind of person Howe was, he was a means to an end of Loghian, the perfect person to do what he saw as the necessary work to reshape Ferelden. Also, despite his nature and ambition, Loghain knew he was in no danger of Howe despite is treacherous nature, because all Howe's hopes for power and wealth were tied to Loghain and his success in becoming regent (he would also only be safe from retribution for his crimes and actions as long as Loghain remained Regent and gave him the protection and immunity he needed). So Loghain could and did trust in Howe's own nature, his ambition, self-interest and his interest in self-preservation to insure his loyalty to Loghain's cause (after the Cousland attack he really had no choice but to stay tied to Loghain no matter what). In that way, Loghain was very politically savy

[HarlequinDream]

Yeah, I'm of the mindset that Loghain doesn't realize how much he'd have messed up by killing the Gray Wardens.



I really do think he figured most of the tales were just exaggerations and so on. He figured they'd been around during all Blights and had just gotten a reputation as being needed. (...Part of me wishes you could have him alive AND keep Alistair so that Loghain could realize how much he would have screwed up if he'd killed the two of you.)

[KalosCast]

Loghain wanted somebody to do his more cloak and dagger dirty work, Howe wanted more power and prestige. They each could give what the other wanted. Pretty cut and dry to me.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

HarlequinDream wrote...

Yeah, I'm of the mindset that Loghain doesn't realize how much he'd have messed up by killing the Gray Wardens.

I really do think he figured most of the tales were just exaggerations and so on. He figured they'd been around during all Blights and had just gotten a reputation as being needed. (...Part of me wishes you could have him alive AND keep Alistair so that Loghain could realize how much he would have screwed up if he'd killed the two of you.)

Ya, he really doesn't. He deserves all my bile but the Grey Warden hate was because he lacked information. Information that Riordan points out is secret for a reason.

[Bullets McDeath]

I thought Loghain *did* know the Grey Warden's secret, he just didn't believe there was an Archdemon because the Orlesians were behind everything? Could be wrong.

[Bullets McDeath]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

People other than his followers were sent to light the beacon. Loghain isn't retarded. He knew the wardens could light a simple pyre, come on.

He has a sense of the battle field. He knew the battle was going on too long. He was however hesitant to leave until the pyre was lit and he was forced to make a decision. One he was not happy with. Which is why he got so angry at his trusted second questioning him, he wasn't happy with it either but it's what had to be done. The whole time you see him throughout he's stressed and frustrated, he doesn't want to rule he's doing what he thinks is best for Fereldan.

If he's such a great guy, why does he authorize the murder of the Couslands? You really need to look at the situation in Ostagar a little closer. It is clear from the beginning he always planned to retreat. He had planned his betrayal weeks before Ostagar and simply left Cailan to his fate on the battlefield, as was *always* his plan. Again, if Loghain is such a great guy, why does he try to take the throne from his own daughter? Sell a free people into slavery? Hire a blood mage to poison the only living advisor to the Throne? Proclaim to be fighting the blight and then hire assassins to kill the only two Grey Wardens left in Ferelden? Spread lies about the only order who can hope to defeat the Blight when he knows *damn* well they didn't betray the King as he says.

He might not be doing thing for "evil" reasons in his mind, but you give him far too much credit. He's a traitorous, slanderous, power-hungry kingslayer who will stop at nothing for What's Best for Ferelden (which only HE can provide, naturally).

You and I are of the same mind, my friend. *points to above post*
Though I will say that his denial of Grey Warden usefulness is more a nod to the overarching story concept that nobody knows truly why the Grey Wardens are needed. Duncan makes that clear as does Riordan. Other than that, I am with you 1000000%!

He's definitely a fully realized character with some complex motivations and I love Bioware for giving us a villain worth taking the time to understand and revile. And there are even some things to respect about his character. But I see alot of people take the complexity of his character a step too far and start defending him like he's actually a good guy...

Reminds me of Sephiroth from FF7.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:55 .

[Bullets McDeath]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

You and I are of the same mind, my friend. *points to above post*
Though I will say that his denial of Grey Warden usefulness is more a nod to the overarching story concept that nobody knows truly why the Grey Wardens are needed. Duncan makes that clear as does Riordan. Other than that, I am with you 1000000%!

He's definitely a fully realized character with some complex motivations and I love Bioware for giving us a villain worth taking the time to understand and revile. And there are even some things to respect about his character. But I see alot of people take the complexity of his character a step too far and start defending him like he's just a misunderstood good guy...

Reminds me of Sephiroth from FF7.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:58 .