132 réponses à ce sujet

[HarlequinDream]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

Yeah, I'm of the mindset that Loghain doesn't realize how much he'd have messed up by killing the Gray Wardens.

I really do think he figured most of the tales were just exaggerations and so on. He figured they'd been around during all Blights and had just gotten a reputation as being needed. (...Part of me wishes you could have him alive AND keep Alistair so that Loghain could realize how much he would have screwed up if he'd killed the two of you.)

Ya, he really doesn't. He deserves all my bile but the Grey Warden hate was because he lacked information. Information that Riordan points out is secret for a reason.

Right. No one except the experienced Gray Wardens knows WHY Wardens are vital.

Yes, they can sense the darkspawn, but, meh. You can do without that.

Needing them to kill the archdemon, however... closely guarded secret and also a really big deal.

[Riot Inducer]

In regards to the tower signal, I am also of the opinion it was never intended to be lit, Loghain states that he has his men stationed there and starts to object when Cailin puts the Grey Wardens there. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that had the darkspawn not overrun the tower Loghain's men might have turned on Alistair and the PC to prevent them from lighting the beacon. Remember, part of Loghain's plan was to pin Cailin's death on the Grey Wardens, who he sees as Orlesian agents.

[Suron]

Faerieheart wrote...

People other than his followers were sent to light the beacon. Loghain isn't retarded. He knew the wardens could light a simple pyre, come on.

He has a sense of the battle field. He knew the battle was going on too long. He was however hesitant to leave until the pyre was lit and he was forced to make a decision. One he was not happy with. Which is why he got so angry at his trusted second questioning him, he wasn't happy with it either but it's what had to be done. The whole time you see him throughout he's stressed and frustrated, he doesn't want to rule he's doing what he thinks is best for Fereldan.

don't be stupid.  it's beyond clear that he had it planned from the get-go to leave the field.  He tried to talk Cailan down..but the King listening or not didn't change ANY of Loghains plans.

If Loghain knew the battle had gone on too long he WOULD NOT HAVE WAITED for the beacon to be lit.

I swear some people come in here with these points just to stir up an idiotic mess lol.

you're wrong

/thread

[menasure]

the whole story about the pyre is a strange one because it is not very clear when it was supposed to be lit in the first place.
you are not allowed to access the tower when you arrive in the camp and loghain does give you "the look" when it turns out gray wardens are going to light the pyre so i have little doubt that he had foul play planned all along.
why he would care that the pyre would be lit or not is rather questionable. the only reason i can think off is that it had the potential to expose him as a traitor ... that is if someone who knew what that signal meant while not being part of the conspiracy would have survived the battle but it is likely that even his own troops did not know about the signal. for all they knew hostile forces might have set the tower on fire.
all loghain had to do is make up a story why they withdrew and the part of the gray wardens in the king's death, set some devious plans in action to get rid of remaining competitors for the throne and alistair and your own character are probably the only ones who know about the treason he committed.

Modifié par menasure, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[Puppy Love]

I never said Loghain is a great guy. He's willing to do ANYTHING to protect Fereldan, even doing things he despises, like take the seat of power which he DOES NOT want as is made clear throughout the books. Attacking to early is as bad as attacking too late. You can tell when it's too late by having a sense of how battle progresses, but you can't gauge the perfect time to attack the same way, thus the need for the beacon. Alistair assumed that late was better than never, and that obviously late or not (even Alistair knew you were late, don't see you questioning that) Loghain would attack once he saw the signal. Loghain however is not leading his troops into what is likely a suicide mission especially when someone needs to survive. It's already most likely too late to save the die.



The planning this ahead of time is an illusion however. Much like it seeming like Loghain showed up to save Maric in the calling.



In both cases we see Loghains working against Orlais in Fereldan causing a correlation that are not directly connected. Correlation does not equal causation.



Eamon was married to an Orlesian and possibly not only an Orlesian sympathizer, but a strong influence on the king who with the warden's influence as well was allowing the Orlesian's in.



Same with the Couselands, as Howe said, the Cousland's were "becoming too friendly wiith the Orlesians" if there is any truth to this, innocent non conspiratory friendliness or not, as another strong influence on the king they needed to be eliminated.



He did not want Cailin on the battlefield. Cailin's death was never the intent. Destroying the Orlesian sympathizers in Cailin's and his Daughter's ear was however. He wanted all the wardens on the battlefield because his plan included pretty much the first force being defeated.



He may have intended the beacon not to be lit, that makes sense, then he could take Cailin and his forces to safety after his enemies were destroyed without looking bad. But that fell apart when the wardens were sent, and Cailin decided to join the suicide squadron. The goal was to eliminate the last of the orlesian influence on Cailin, not to take the thrown. The glory for us all was sarcasm because Loghain realized the whole situation just become fubar. Loghains venom towards Cauthrin was because he was pissed and upset and frustratrated. He now has a lot on his plate of which is also included explaining to his daughter why her husband is dead.



Loghain was making the best of a plan gone to ****. He blamed the wardens because getting rid of the orlesian influence was always the goal and scapegoats are a good way of pulling the wool over others eyes.



But no, Loghain never wanted to take the thrown, and was not trying to betray Cailin. He was trying to protect Fereldan from Orlesian influence, and was hoping to do so and defeat the darkspawn incursion at the same time.

[Bullets McDeath]

Faerie, you have clearly thought alot about this but you are just seeing what you want to see. I hate to start throwing fanboi accusation around, but seriously. Take off them rose colored spectacles. He is driven by what he *feels* is righteous and good, but there's too much raw, naked ambition and lust for power for it to work out that way. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. Seriously, go watch the Ostagar cutscenes again. It's so UNBELIEVABLY CLEAR that Loghain is planning to betray Cailan. It was absolutely intentional. If you really can't see that, there's no point in even discussing this.

[HarlequinDream]

Personally, I think Loghain argued with Cailin about fighting on the front lines because he saw Cailin's immaturity.



Cailin had final say in all matters of battle, so Loghain pushing and pushing that it was "too dangerous" and such? Is only going to make Cailin that much more likely to be in the thick of it to prove Loghain wrong.

[Puppy Love]

outlaworacle wrote...

Faerie, you have clearly thought alot about this but you are just seeing what you want to see. I hate to start throwing fanboi accusation around, but seriously. Take off them rose colored spectacles. He is driven by what he *feels* is righteous and good, but there's too much raw, naked ambition and lust for power for it to work out that way. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. Seriously, go watch the Ostagar cutscenes again. It's so UNBELIEVABLY CLEAR that Loghain is planning to betray Cailan. It was absolutely intentional. If you really can't see that, there's no point in even discussing this.

He did not want Cailin in the main force and time and time again in the books, and even in the game when he sais he had no desire to take the thrown from his daughter is this again emphasized.  It's not rose colored glasses to know that wantong power and being ambitious are not motivations for Loghain.

There are many reasons for his "betrayal" but none of them are ambition or a lust for power.  It wasn't even a betrayal of Cailin, but striking against Orlesian incursion.  Cailin insisting on joining the main force was all Cailin's doing.  Loghain didn't want him there, he was NEVER out to kill Cailin or take the thrown.  He just wanted the Orlesians to stay out of Fereldan.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Case in point, Orlais has nothing to do with the plot, ergo, EVERYTHING Loghain was worried about was wrong. Thus everything he did was wrong. He contrived a conspiracy and then made moves against his own contrivance...



So no, Loghain is a tool who set himself up and planned the coup all along.

[Suron]

you're right..he didn't want Cailan dead..that was obvious by him trying to talk the king down from the futile attack..and to not be at the front of the battle with the Warden's



However as soon as he knew there was no talking the King out of it he was commited. End of story. He left the field of battle when he saw the beacon lit. He either was NOT expecting it to be lit..so he could use the cover of that as to why he left the field OR he planned on leaving as soon as it was (which makes less of a strategic sense.)



Everything supports that in the story SAVE for what he himself says..which is obvious what he'd do/say because he wouldn't just admit to leaving the King to die..so in his twisted mind he blaimed the Warden's.



And no that wasn't Loghains intent with swooping in to save the king to look good...the warden's were ALWAYS planned to be there...Loghain knew this...they didn't just show up out of nowhere (only duncan does really because he was off seeking more.)



Not to mention then how do you explain Greagor's contempt for the warden's wanting more men for the battle....THE WARDENS WERE ALREADY THERE THEY DIDN'T JUST SHOW UP.



so..as I said...no. You're wrong. Loghain was a hero..and this was highlighted in the book. But whether or not YOU want to face it..he has fallen and become twisted and blinded by paranoia



/thread 2

[Bullets McDeath]

He has no desire to take the throne, but he still does it. Just like he had no desire to enslave elves, poison Eamon, frame the Grey Wardens or have you assassinated. You are seriously being thick here.

[Puppy Love]

I meant the warden's going to the tower, not being there. The wardens needed to be there to die.

[HarlequinDream]

Faerieheart wrote...

I meant the warden's going to the tower, not being there. The wardens needed to be there to die.

He does not want the Wardens at the Tower of Ishal. He tries to argue with this plan. He wanted them on the battle field. So they would die.

Had things gone according to plan and the darkspawn not shown up, he might have found the perfect scapegoat for "the signal wasn't lit." Blame the Gray Wardens there. It would easily be seen as part of their plot to kill Cailin.

Thus, execution for both of you.

Either way, he would have gotten what he wanted. The darkspawn attacking the tower complicated things, but he still could have played it off well. The real problem with his plan? Flemeth rescues you. If you didn't survive the tower, you couldn't be a threat. If you'd survived the tower but fallen into Loghain's hands, he could set everything on you.

That you lived and were kept away from him immediately is what ruins an otherwise perfect set-up.

[Puppy Love]

outlaworacle wrote...

He has no desire to take the throne, but he still does it. Just like he had no desire to enslave elves, poison Eamon, frame the Grey Wardens or have you assassinated. You are seriously being thick here.

He does what he feels in necessary, whether he personally likes it or not.  Including giving up the love of his life.  He's very much a Martyr in that he will do anything regaurdless of how he personally feels about it if he feels it needs to be done.  Unfortunately until you beat it into his head, he's too arrogant to realize that just maybe you know what needs to be done better than he does, and is too paranoid about Orlesian incursion to realize the blight, not the Orlesians are the true threat here.

[Bullets McDeath]

Harlequin brings up a good point. Considering too that Riordian is only freed because of the PCs action, that leaves precisely squat Grey Wardens in Ferelden. If Flemeth hadn't rescued Alistair and the PC, where do you think Ferelden and it's hunky King Loghain would have ended up?

Let me solve that puzzle for you. Loghain would have torn the country apart with a civil war in order to put himself on the throne and delegate stolen titles to his murderous lackey Howe, allowed Ferelden to be overrun by Darkspawn while preparing for war with Orlais that's never coming and then he and the rest of the country would end up as Archdemon Bowel Movements before the year is done.

What a friggin' hero! Long live Loghain!

Modifié par outlaworacle, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[HarlequinDream]

Flemeth is the wild card. She's the one thing that Loghain could not combat or plan for because she was an unknown element. Without Flemeth, the Gray Warden legacy would have been lost, whether or not you died at the tower. Don't die at the tower? Captured by Loghain and executed as traitors.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Faerieheart wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

He has no desire to take the throne, but he still does it. Just like he had no desire to enslave elves, poison Eamon, frame the Grey Wardens or have you assassinated. You are seriously being thick here.

He does what he feels in necessary, whether he personally likes it or not.  Including giving up the love of his life.  He's very much a Martyr in that he will do anything regaurdless of how he personally feels about it if he feels it needs to be done.  Unfortunately until you beat it into his head, he's too arrogant to realize that just maybe you know what needs to be done better than he does, and is too paranoid about Orlesian incursion to realize the blight, not the Orlesians are the true threat here.

Slavery, treachery, murder, setting his own daughter up to be murdered, betraying his king, duplicity...

Ya, my hearts bleeds...

[HarlequinDream]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

He has no desire to take the throne, but he still does it. Just like he had no desire to enslave elves, poison Eamon, frame the Grey Wardens or have you assassinated. You are seriously being thick here.

He does what he feels in necessary, whether he personally likes it or not.  Including giving up the love of his life.  He's very much a Martyr in that he will do anything regaurdless of how he personally feels about it if he feels it needs to be done.  Unfortunately until you beat it into his head, he's too arrogant to realize that just maybe you know what needs to be done better than he does, and is too paranoid about Orlesian incursion to realize the blight, not the Orlesians are the true threat here.

Slavery, treachery, murder, setting his own daughter up to be murdered, betraying his king, duplicity...

Ya, my hearts bleeds...

Cheers.

Of course, I'm still firm in my belief that he had to know Cailin wouldn't back down from fighting alongside the Gray Wardens and that he knew trhat everytime he argued, Cailin's firmness would only increase. So arguing was the best way of making sure Cailin was on the front lines.

[hansraaj]

all comes down to politics.  Loghain is a mad man in his own right ripe with regret and full of patriotism.  Considering everything that was bearing down on Ferelden, of which he loved so much (unless you let him live, and in that case, which he still loves), makes for interesting and sometimes brutally stupid decisions.  This is definatley one of the stupid ones he made, along w/ making slaves of the Common elf....

[DeathWyrmNexus]

HarlequinDream wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

He has no desire to take the throne, but he still does it. Just like he had no desire to enslave elves, poison Eamon, frame the Grey Wardens or have you assassinated. You are seriously being thick here.

He does what he feels in necessary, whether he personally likes it or not.  Including giving up the love of his life.  He's very much a Martyr in that he will do anything regaurdless of how he personally feels about it if he feels it needs to be done.  Unfortunately until you beat it into his head, he's too arrogant to realize that just maybe you know what needs to be done better than he does, and is too paranoid about Orlesian incursion to realize the blight, not the Orlesians are the true threat here.

Slavery, treachery, murder, setting his own daughter up to be murdered, betraying his king, duplicity...

Ya, my hearts bleeds...

Cheers.

Of course, I'm still firm in my belief that he had to know Cailin wouldn't back down from fighting alongside the Gray Wardens and that he knew trhat everytime he argued, Cailin's firmness would only increase. So arguing was the best way of making sure Cailin was on the front lines.

I am with you there. Cailan was a good man but a bit overconfident. He wanted glory so the best way to goad him was to argue against having him on the front lines as well as attack his belief that the Wardens were a good idea.

How do you ****** off somebody in a debate, attack what they believe. You see it in religious threads all the time. Anora tells you that Cailan was set in his course, the ONLY time he ever opposed Loghain. I certainly know that I've manipulated people in the past with the same way of coercion. Question their logic and they defend it thus becoming stronger in their beliefs.

Talking to Anora only solidified that for me. Then again, when I first played the damn game, Loghain turning his back to Cailan and saying Glory for us all gave me the "Awww dammit, he is going to betray us" vibe. I was a tad annoyed when it happened because I wanted Kain... I mean Simon Templeman on my side.

[Dark83]

Loghain set them up to die. The beacon was useless. It was nothing more than an excuse for his retreat - so that the Landsmeet would buy the story just like Faerieheart did. Just look at when Loghain was questioned by his daughter if he has killed the king. Blindingly obvious.

[Puppy Love]

outlaworacle wrote...

Harlequin brings up a good point. Considering too that Riordian is only freed because of the PCs action, that leaves precisely squat Grey Wardens in Ferelden. If Flemeth hadn't rescued Alistair and the PC, where do you think Ferelden and it's hunky King Loghain would have ended up?

Let me solve that puzzle for you. Loghain would have torn the country apart with a civil war in order to put himself on the throne and delegate stolen titles to his murderous lackey Howe, allowed Ferelden to be overrun by Darkspawn while preparing for war with Orlais that's never coming and then he and the rest of the country would end up as Archdemon Bowel Movements before the year is done.

What a friggin' hero! Long live Loghain!

I didn't say Loghain was right, or that things would have gone great if he succeeded.  I'm merely saying his motivations aren't what people make them out to be, and betraying/killing Cailin was not his intent.  Eliminating the Orlesian threat to Fereldan was.  Also he had no intention of going to war with Orlais, it's an entire empire, he knows that would result in no more Fereldan, he just wanted them to stay out.  Fereldan is not worth the effort to reclaim right now.  If it starts attacking Orlais it will become one, Loghain knows this. 

He wants to keep Orlais out of Fereldan, and for Fereldan to stand on it's own without help from Orlais.  If instead of going to Orlais for help the wardens went to the dwarves and dalish and everyone else on their list first like we did, I bet Loghain would have been a lot more amendable than going straight to the same people he's been rooting out spys and assasins and plots from since the time he and Maric took the thrown back from them.  He's been fighting an ongoing war against Orlesian incursion since they reclaimed the thrown.  It's NEVER stopped.  It's not even true paranoia since they really are out to get them.  Read the calling and you will see what I mean.  When it comes to fighting this blight our good buddy Duncan really was an idiot insisting that enemies still in a subtle cold war work together before even trying to get help from anyone else. 

Shoot he didn't even need the treaties.  I not once had to actually produce them to except at orzammar and that was only because the gate was barred and there was a budding civil war so no one was allowed in.  Once inside they already knew and honored them without me needing to be like "here look at these" and Duncan was already respected by all these people.

Shoot considering this, I'd almost be suspicious of Duncan.  Why?  Why the orlesian's first?  You know the politics of what's going on, so why?  Hmmm makes me curious, don't know about you.  Heck all these allies are closer than Orlais too and a potential immediate help.  Duncan was really going out of his way to insist help come from orlais, and only orlais.

[MOTpoetryION]

just loghains expression on his face when looking up at the tower when the firer got lit make you thiink he either had it planned for his men not to light the fire or knew about the dark spawn being there imo

[TeleProd]

HarlequinDream wrote...

Cheers.

Of course, I'm still firm in my belief that he had to know Cailin wouldn't back down from fighting alongside the Gray Wardens and that he knew trhat everytime he argued, Cailin's firmness would only increase. So arguing was the best way of making sure Cailin was on the front lines.

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

[TeleProd]

Whoops, double post, sorry.

Modifié par TeleProd, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:53 .