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[HarlequinDream]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

HarlequinDream wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

He has no desire to take the throne, but he still does it. Just like he had no desire to enslave elves, poison Eamon, frame the Grey Wardens or have you assassinated. You are seriously being thick here.

He does what he feels in necessary, whether he personally likes it or not.  Including giving up the love of his life.  He's very much a Martyr in that he will do anything regaurdless of how he personally feels about it if he feels it needs to be done.  Unfortunately until you beat it into his head, he's too arrogant to realize that just maybe you know what needs to be done better than he does, and is too paranoid about Orlesian incursion to realize the blight, not the Orlesians are the true threat here.

Slavery, treachery, murder, setting his own daughter up to be murdered, betraying his king, duplicity...

Ya, my hearts bleeds...

Cheers.

Of course, I'm still firm in my belief that he had to know Cailin wouldn't back down from fighting alongside the Gray Wardens and that he knew trhat everytime he argued, Cailin's firmness would only increase. So arguing was the best way of making sure Cailin was on the front lines.

I am with you there. Cailan was a good man but a bit overconfident. He wanted glory so the best way to goad him was to argue against having him on the front lines as well as attack his belief that the Wardens were a good idea.

How do you ****** off somebody in a debate, attack what they believe. You see it in religious threads all the time. Anora tells you that Cailan was set in his course, the ONLY time he ever opposed Loghain. I certainly know that I've manipulated people in the past with the same way of coercion. Question their logic and they defend it thus becoming stronger in their beliefs.

Talking to Anora only solidified that for me. Then again, when I first played the damn game, Loghain turning his back to Cailan and saying Glory for us all gave me the "Awww dammit, he is going to betray us" vibe. I was a tad annoyed when it happened because I wanted Kain... I mean Simon Templeman on my side.

PC in Ostagar camp talking to Loghain: ...Wow. You really don't like us. Damn. Oh well!

Me at hearing the "glory for us all": ...Damn. You're plotting, aren't you?

[Galad22]

Faerieheart wrote...

I didn't say Loghain was right, or that things would have gone great if he succeeded.  I'm merely saying his motivations aren't what people make them out to be, and betraying/killing Cailin was not his intent.  Eliminating the Orlesian threat to Fereldan was.  Also he had no intention of going to war with Orlais, it's an entire empire, he knows that would result in no more Fereldan, he just wanted them to stay out.  Fereldan is not worth the effort to reclaim right now.  If it starts attacking Orlais it will become one, Loghain knows this. 

He wants to keep Orlais out of Fereldan, and for Fereldan to stand on it's own without help from Orlais.  If instead of going to Orlais for help the wardens went to the dwarves and dalish and everyone else on their list first like we did, I bet Loghain would have been a lot more amendable than going straight to the same people he's been rooting out spys and assasins and plots from since the time he and Maric took the thrown back from them.  He's been fighting an ongoing war against Orlesian incursion since they reclaimed the thrown.  It's NEVER stopped.  It's not even true paranoia since they really are out to get them.  Read the calling and you will see what I mean.  When it comes to fighting this blight our good buddy Duncan really was an idiot insisting that enemies still in a subtle cold war work together before even trying to get help from anyone else. 

Shoot he didn't even need the treaties.  I not once had to actually produce them to except at orzammar and that was only because the gate was barred and there was a budding civil war so no one was allowed in.  Once inside they already knew and honored them without me needing to be like "here look at these" and Duncan was already respected by all these people.

Shoot considering this, I'd almost be suspicious of Duncan.  Why?  Why the orlesian's first?  You know the politics of what's going on, so why?  Hmmm makes me curious, don't know about you.  Heck all these allies are closer than Orlais too and a potential immediate help.  Duncan was really going out of his way to insist help come from orlais, and only orlais.

Duncan didn't invite Orlesians in Ferelden. Cailan did and he was you know king, so he did had every right to do that. Besides those orlesians were mostly grey warden's or at least commanded by grey warden's.

[Bullets McDeath]

I am gonna have to bow out of this respectfully. This thread contains a perilous number of logical Black Holes. Abandon!

[Galad22]

TeleProd wrote...

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

[Puppy Love]

Galad22 wrote...

Duncan didn't invite Orlesians in Ferelden. Cailan did and he was you know king, so he did had every right to do that. Besides those orlesians were mostly grey warden's or at least commanded by grey warden's.

Duncan was the one trying to convince him to wait til the orlesians came.  Haven't you ever picked the "What would you have him do?" option while talking to Duncan?

It's clear bringing in the Orlesians wasn't spawned straight out of Cailin's head.  He had Eamon, Couslands, Duncan and possibly others as potential influences.  All targets of Loghain...  gee I wonder...

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Faerieheart wrote...

Shoot considering this, I'd almost be suspicious of Duncan.  Why?  Why the orlesian's first?  You know the politics of what's going on, so why?  Hmmm makes me curious, don't know about you.  Heck all these allies are closer than Orlais too and a potential immediate help.  Duncan was really going out of his way to insist help come from orlais, and only orlais.

Um, he contacted the Grey Wardens in Orlais because he wasn't contacting a kingdom, he was contact his kin there. Big difference, one you shouldn't forget. The Grey Wardens there contacted the government for assistance against the Blight.

See, Duncan had the treaties as a fall back since they are compulsatory devices. Why force help when it can be freely given by your fellow Wardens and their friends?

You think too much of Orlais and not enough of the Blight, my dear.

[HarlequinDream]

Galad22 wrote...

TeleProd wrote...

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

And the whole "I'm a great general, and this is the plan. Listen to it very, very closely. You attack, my men light the beacon, we come in and keep you from being killed. That is the plan. Got it? Good. Now, I will disregard my own plan and leave you to die. Oh, and then I'm going to take over the throne, even though my daughter could easily rule and I could just be in charge of her army. Bye!"

Modifié par HarlequinDream, 06 décembre 2009 - 08:58 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Galad22 wrote...

TeleProd wrote...

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

This x20!

Keyword, Loghain fans, BEFORE!

[Puppy Love]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

Shoot considering this, I'd almost be suspicious of Duncan.  Why?  Why the orlesian's first?  You know the politics of what's going on, so why?  Hmmm makes me curious, don't know about you.  Heck all these allies are closer than Orlais too and a potential immediate help.  Duncan was really going out of his way to insist help come from orlais, and only orlais.

Um, he contacted the Grey Wardens in Orlais because he wasn't contacting a kingdom, he was contact his kin there. Big difference, one you shouldn't forget. The Grey Wardens there contacted the government for assistance against the Blight.

See, Duncan had the treaties as a fall back since they are compulsatory devices. Why force help when it can be freely given by your fellow Wardens and their friends?

You think too much of Orlais and not enough of the Blight, my dear.

In trying to understand Loghain you have to.

The blight just showed up.  Orlais has been a constant ever present threat.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Faerieheart wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Duncan didn't invite Orlesians in Ferelden. Cailan did and he was you know king, so he did had every right to do that. Besides those orlesians were mostly grey warden's or at least commanded by grey warden's.

Duncan was the one trying to convince him to wait til the orlesians came.  Haven't you ever picked the "What would you have him do?" option while talking to Duncan?

It's clear bringing in the Orlesians wasn't spawned straight out of Cailin's head.  He had Eamon, Couslands, Duncan and possibly others as potential influences.  All targets of Loghain...  gee I wonder...

Paranoia and urine soup...

You DID play the whole game right? How much did Orlais have to do with anything? Nada. Loghain was conspiring against something that didn't exist. Nothing to be suspicious of and his reaction was epic fail.

I mean, I'd seriously consider going gay for Simon Templeman since he played Kain so I understand the love but seriously now... I think you have contracted Loghain's paranoia and thus his Folly.

[Puppy Love]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

TeleProd wrote...

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

This x20!

Keyword, Loghain fans, BEFORE!

Correlation does not equal causation.  They were being killed off for being Orlais supporters with the kings ear, not because he wanted the thrown himself.  He's been killing off Orlesian spies and supporters that have tried to influence, sway, assasinate or spy on the king since he and Maric kicked them out decades ago.

[Jisai]

Faerieheart wrote...

I've been able to explain the hows and why of Loghain to my friends and myself having read the books and beaten the game on multiple angles.  There is however one glaring inconsistency that makes no sense and I can never see Loghain doing.  What I'm asking for is if anyone can give me an explanation which makes any sense at all.

Why would Loghain trust Howe in any way, let alone make him his lead advisor.  Loghains anti-orlesian paranoia wouldn't allow it.  Howe sided with Orlesians until the the last moment when he realized his side was losing.  For all Loghain knows, Howe is an opportunist who's already sided with Orlais once when it was convenient. 

But like I said WHY would Loghain even let Howe ex betrayer of Fereldan to the Orlesians even live given any oportunity to kill him.

Loghain had Howe part of the plan all along to coup Ferelden and the throne.
As with taking over the Cousland castle he not only gained a place of defensive merit but eliminated a good portion of the support that the force that was going to have with the king at Ostagar. Because a good number of the troops were from Cousland's own forces which left the 'token' force to stand watch at the castle. Loghain also is well aware that Howe has him by the 'short and curlies' due to his hostile takeover of Cousland castle so him betraying him now would be foolhardy as they are in this coup of Ferelden together. 

Shoot Loghain's paranoia led to his sending an assasin to kill Arl Eamon because he was too close to the king and was married to an orlesian.  The last thing Loghain wanted is more people telling Cailin to let the orlesians in.

The mage assassin sent to Eamon was also part of the coup plan to take out the next most possible suitor to the throne. It is said that Meric and Loghain were 'best friends', in this Loghain knew not only of Eamon's suitability but that of Alistair's to take the throne. So to tie up loose ends Loghain had the 'lower chambers' cover story concocted of the tower in Ostagar (the guard even said he saw nothing of said lower chambers when he was there) then left it open, meaning they let the Darkspawn take the tower on purpose for the end of killing Alistair and the last Grey Warden. Additionally, one has to recall that the tower was closed off to anyone due to the supposid 'newfound lower chambers' so that prohibited the Grey Wardens or anyone else having operational knowledge of the goings on there.

Heck I don't even think Loghain's "betrayal" at Ostagar is so clear.  The signal came too late.  Loghain is smart enough to pick that up.  Remember Alistair "I'm sure missed the signal, quick light the pyre."

Sending the last of the army into a trap, or unwinnable battle leaving Fereldan open with no one to tell anyone what happened was suicide for everyone.

Loghain quitting the field in Ostagar true enough would not have saved the King, he would have fallen even if the flank had been rushed by Loghain. However, him seeing the flames atop the tower gave him the approximate time when the battle would have been at its 'make or break' point. He quit the field, and summarily the Cousland army and the King's guard were overrun without rear support.

The signal didnt come to late, Alistair had no idea Loghain's true intentions. Loghain knew that this make or break would occur, and followed his own part he was supposed to play in his plan to get rid of the King, his guards, and the Grey Wardens on the field with him.

Pieces of the puzzle that fit together, different facets all working together to create an illusion of him 'getting out just in time' and then blaming those whom he assesses cannot speak for themselves (because they are supposidly all dead) as the ones whom were at fault, the Grey Wardens.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Faerieheart wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

Shoot considering this, I'd almost be suspicious of Duncan.  Why?  Why the orlesian's first?  You know the politics of what's going on, so why?  Hmmm makes me curious, don't know about you.  Heck all these allies are closer than Orlais too and a potential immediate help.  Duncan was really going out of his way to insist help come from orlais, and only orlais.

Um, he contacted the Grey Wardens in Orlais because he wasn't contacting a kingdom, he was contact his kin there. Big difference, one you shouldn't forget. The Grey Wardens there contacted the government for assistance against the Blight.

See, Duncan had the treaties as a fall back since they are compulsatory devices. Why force help when it can be freely given by your fellow Wardens and their friends?

You think too much of Orlais and not enough of the Blight, my dear.

In trying to understand Loghain you have to.

The blight just showed up.  Orlais has been a constant ever present threat.

Only in his mind, I'm afraid.

Cailan: Our war with Orlais is over. /full stop

[slackbheep]

Loghain was just too paranoid. He saw Orleasian blades in every shadow, and was terrified of losing what he spent his life fighting for.

[HarlequinDream]

Faerieheart wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

TeleProd wrote...

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

This x20!

Keyword, Loghain fans, BEFORE!

Correlation does not equal causation.  They were being killed off for being Orlais supporters with the kings ear, not because he wanted the thrown himself.  He's been killing off Orlesian spies and supporters that have tried to influence, sway, assasinate or spy on the king since he and Maric kicked them out decades ago.

Throne. Something is thrown. A king sits on a throne.

Or else it was easy enough to make them look like Orlaisian sympathizers. Seriously, except from Loghain's rantings, we hear nothing about Orlais even looking at re-conquering Ferelden. Yes, Duncan wants to bring in Gray Wardens from there. Yes, Cailin is willing to believe Duncan that it's a Blight that could destroy the entire world, so he'll ally with Orlais against a common enemy.

It is only in Loghain's mind that Orlais is planning an invasion. Nothing else supports this.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Faerieheart wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

TeleProd wrote...

Possibly. But how many times did he argue with Maric in the books when Maric was about to do something stupid, like in The Calling? Did he want Maric to die as well? I believe Loghain truly wanted Cailan out of the front lines. He might have tried more subtle methods at first. What we saw in the game was his last attempts to argue Cailan out of it on the eve of the battle.

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

This x20!

Keyword, Loghain fans, BEFORE!

Correlation does not equal causation.  They were being killed off for being Orlais supporters with the kings ear, not because he wanted the thrown himself.  He's been killing off Orlesian spies and supporters that have tried to influence, sway, assasinate or spy on the king since he and Maric kicked them out decades ago.

Killing off two big supporters of the King's fight against the Blight before they could show up sounds like Causation to me.

"Your Uncle reminds you that he can be here in less than a week."

"I am daddy Cousland sending off my eldest son and myself to go help the king..."

Hurk, I am poisoned!
Hurk, I am dead!

Ya, about your causation decrying...

[Puppy Love]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Duncan didn't invite Orlesians in Ferelden. Cailan did and he was you know king, so he did had every right to do that. Besides those orlesians were mostly grey warden's or at least commanded by grey warden's.

Duncan was the one trying to convince him to wait til the orlesians came.  Haven't you ever picked the "What would you have him do?" option while talking to Duncan?

It's clear bringing in the Orlesians wasn't spawned straight out of Cailin's head.  He had Eamon, Couslands, Duncan and possibly others as potential influences.  All targets of Loghain...  gee I wonder...

Paranoia and urine soup...

You DID play the whole game right? How much did Orlais have to do with anything? Nada. Loghain was conspiring against something that didn't exist. Nothing to be suspicious of and his reaction was epic fail.

I mean, I'd seriously consider going gay for Simon Templeman since he played Kain so I understand the love but seriously now... I think you have contracted Loghain's paranoia and thus his Folly.

Of course it didn't come up much.  Orlais wants the blight stopped in Fereldan so it doesn't spread them.  Besides the idea is that Orlais brings it's armies in and then after the blight is defeated, and Fereldan is in it's weakened state having taken the brunt of the damage the Orlesians already there just take over from the defenseless fereldans.

It didn't happen though, and who knows it might have.  Loghains actions may actually have coincidentally lead through you to this not happening like Loghain feared.

[Puppy Love]

The orlesians already made an attempt on his life, and failing that nearly kidnapped Maric, and that's the only plot he's foiled already that we know about.



We know the orlesian's have spies and such in Fereldan, his paranoia is built upon a lifetime of actualities and experiences. You're all acting like Orlais has been just sitting there with their thumbs up their ass this whole time.



Just because we don't see it with a BLIGHT going on doesn't mean it's not happening, Anything like this would be subtle, and no one would admit to it.

[elearon1]

>>I swear some people come in here with these points just to stir up an idiotic mess lol.



you're wrong



/thread<<



Wow, it must be hard to be so amazingly cool ... could you possibly call one more person stupid if you really tried? If you are so frustrated with the conversation, leave it to the people who want to discuss the matter ... no one will miss you if you're not there to insult them.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Ya know. I had an epiphany. Loghain's actions reek of "Has Been" thinking. His day has past, his glory a memory, he is just a symbol, a "Hero of Ferelden" and such rot. Now the king wants to do something that doesn't absolutely involve him as the hero, worse yet, bringing in people from an area he hates, so he snaps.



Poor Loghain, I hate the idea of being a has been. At least Wardens can hit the Deep Roads for some final glory...

[Galad22]

Faerieheart wrote...

Of course it didn't come up much.  Orlais wants the blight stopped in Fereldan so it doesn't spread them.  Besides the idea is that Orlais brings it's armies in and then after the blight is defeated, and Fereldan is in it's weakened state having taken the brunt of the damage the Orlesians already there just take over from the defenseless fereldans.

It didn't happen though, and who knows it might have.  Loghains actions may actually have coincidentally lead through you to this not happening like Loghain feared.

No it doesn't Ferelden at the end is in a much weaker state than it would have been if blight was stopped in ostagar. Denerim is in ruins, there are straggler darkspawn everywhere and most of the ferelden army has died in ostagar Loghains civil war and finally in battle of denerim. If Orlais had any intentions to attack Ferelden end of the game would have been best possible day to do just that.

Thanks to Loghain.

And seriously bringing Orlesian wardens in ferelden was a good plan. There were few wardens in ferelden and clearly king saw darkspawn as a true threat and was willing to accept help.

Loghain was the blind one here

[Puppy Love]

[quote]DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

[/quote]
Killing off two big supporters of the King's fight against the Blight before they could show up sounds like Causation to me.

"Your Uncle reminds you that he can be here in less than a week."

"I am daddy Cousland sending off my eldest son and myself to go help the king..."

Hurk, I am poisoned!
Hurk, I am dead!

Ya, about your causation decrying...

[/quote]

Actually if you had died that would have worked perfectly.  He still got the army to support Cailin, and got rid of the supporters in one stroke.  The army had already marched, only thing missing was Daddy Cousland.

Assuming they actually were supporters and not framed as such by Howe

[HarlequinDream]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Ya know. I had an epiphany. Loghain's actions reek of "Has Been" thinking. His day has past, his glory a memory, he is just a symbol, a "Hero of Ferelden" and such rot. Now the king wants to do something that doesn't absolutely involve him as the hero, worse yet, bringing in people from an area he hates, so he snaps.

Poor Loghain, I hate the idea of being a has been. At least Wardens can hit the Deep Roads for some final glory...

You know, I agree with this. I don't think Loghain is entirely aware of it, but I can see it.

I think he's convinced himself that he's doing the right thing... by setting Cailin up to die, etc.

The one thing I will give him is that he doesn't fight his fate once you've beaten him in combat. He doesn't try to attack you again when you pass his death sentence. He does, at least, finally face death like the hero he was.

[TeleProd]

Galad22 wrote...

I haven't really read the book so I can't argue about that.

But there are few proofs that he intended Cailan to die in ostagar.

First poisoning Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

And Second butchering Couslands before Ostagar

These do points out that his plans were laid out and king was supposed to die.

Cailan was a weak king and Queen Anora was running the show behind the scenes, as she said herself. And Loghain had much control over her. In addition, he was a well-known hero of Ferelden and a great general. In a time of a Blight such things bring power (Though I'm not convinced even Loghain believed in the Blight). So, Loghain would have had a pretty good grip anyway. Loghain probably wasn't planning on having poisoning Eamon pinned on him. Butchering Couslands would've made Cailan angry for sure and it is pretty hard to hide if you have Howe as your advisor. I give you that.

Loghain was or was becoming mad with paranoia at that point. I believe he was still human enough to not want the death of his best friend's son, his daughter's husband and his king. He thought he could control the situation even with Cailan alive but when it came to that, with great reluctance accepted that he needed to be sacrificed.

[cipher86]

Loghain is the traitor and he doesn't see it that way.



I played through the game first, hated Loghain, and had Allistair execute him. After beating the game, I read the first book, and gained much empathy for Loghain.



And then I played the game again, and saw he wasn't the same Loghain of the books. Like Eamon says later on, it is a tough pill to swallow that Loghain has become so twisted given his history, but he is what he is, and must be stopped.



Loghain = paranoid, and he makes one bad decision after another based on this. He thought he had Ferelden's best interests in mind, but in truth he did not. He needed to be put down because if he had not, he would just bring ruin to the country.