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[DeathWyrmNexus]

Faerieheart wrote...

The orlesians already made an attempt on his life, and failing that nearly kidnapped Maric, and that's the only plot he's foiled already that we know about.

We know the orlesian's have spies and such in Fereldan, his paranoia is built upon a lifetime of actualities and experiences. You're all acting like Orlais has been just sitting there with their thumbs up their ass this whole time.

Just because we don't see it with a BLIGHT going on doesn't mean it's not happening, Anything like this would be subtle, and no one would admit to it.

So Loghain thought the best course of action was to kill off two powerful nobles and the king, thus causing a civil war as a strategy to "strengthen" Ferelden... Which leaves it ripe for Orlais by the end of the game.

So glad we have this tactical genius on our side...

[Puppy Love]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

The orlesians already made an attempt on his life, and failing that nearly kidnapped Maric, and that's the only plot he's foiled already that we know about.

We know the orlesian's have spies and such in Fereldan, his paranoia is built upon a lifetime of actualities and experiences. You're all acting like Orlais has been just sitting there with their thumbs up their ass this whole time.

Just because we don't see it with a BLIGHT going on doesn't mean it's not happening, Anything like this would be subtle, and no one would admit to it.

So Loghain thought the best course of action was to kill off two powerful nobles and the king, thus causing a civil war as a strategy to "strengthen" Ferelden... Which leaves it ripe for Orlais by the end of the game.

So glad we have this tactical genius on our side...

Killing king Cailin was not part of the plan.  Killing off those who supported Orlesian friendship that had his ear was.

[Riot Inducer]

Faerieheart wrote...

Killing king Cailin was not part of the plan.  Killing off those who supported Orlesian friendship that had his ear was.

Except that the only way to get away with offing said Orlesian sympathizers was to make sure the king couldn't come down on him for it...there's no way Howe would have gone ahead with killing off the Couslands unless he knew he could get off scott free. As you see in the human noble origin Cailin is pretty pissed to hear of Howe's treachery, if Cailin had survived Ostagar there's no way Howe could've kept his newfound titles much less his life. Cailin's death was definitely planned out and known to Howe long before it happened.

[Vormaerin]

The clear plan at Ostagar was to wipe out the Gray Wardens. Loghain's men were clearly intended to light the beacon late or not at all. I expect that he marched away because he figured the Wardens had lit the beacon in a timely fashion. I think the idea he lured darkspawn there just in time for his master plan is something beyond a stretch.



Its possible everything Loghain says the entire time is reverse psychology, but I don't think he originally intended to kill Cailan. I think he intended to get rid of all the Orlesian sympathizers around Cailan. He obviously knew Cailan would die by the end of that planning session.



As for Orlais, we players have no idea what they are up to. We do know that they are scheming, abusive fashionistas. The Orlesians don't come in the game. They don't come as Cailan's allies. They don't come as invaders. We don't know whether Loghain is right about their plans, just that he is wrong to worry about their plans ahead of the Blight.

[Galad22]

Vormaerin wrote...

As for Orlais, we players have no idea what they are up to. We do know that they are scheming, abusive fashionistas. The Orlesians don't come in the game. They don't come as Cailan's allies. They don't come as invaders. We don't know whether Loghain is right about their plans, just that he is wrong to worry about their plans ahead of the Blight.

He is wrong about their plans since they don't attack in the epilogue, if they had any plans for it that would have been the perfect time to do that. Like I said most of the ferelden army is gone, there are darkspawn stragglers around and almost every defense ferelden has, has already been breached once by darkspawn.

[Puppy Love]

Riot Inducer wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

Killing king Cailin was not part of the plan.  Killing off those who supported Orlesian friendship that had his ear was.

Except that the only way to get away with offing said Orlesian sympathizers was to make sure the king couldn't come down on him for it...there's no way Howe would have gone ahead with killing off the Couslands unless he knew he could get off scott free. As you see in the human noble origin Cailin is pretty pissed to hear of Howe's treachery, if Cailin had survived Ostagar there's no way Howe could've kept his newfound titles much less his life. Cailin's death was definitely planned out and known to Howe long before it happened.

It's pointed out when you survive as a human noble that had you not survived they could have made up anything.  Also, it's possible Loghain actually tricked Howe and all of this was supposed be linked to Howe in the end as a patsy.

[Vicious]

Howe's betrayal of the Couslands only matters to the Human Noble origin. Play through any other and its easy to construe that Loghain wasn't working with Howe until after Ostagar.





That said, Loghain is not a fully realized character by any means.



He is evil through 90% of the game and if you make him into an ally in the last minute, he becomes a good guy.



A good guy who serves the Grey Wardens well until the Calling claims him and he descends into the Deep Roads until death claims him.





Could the Loghain I experienced throughout the game do that? HELL NO. But somehow he does because the epilogue says so.



So no, I don't think he's fully realized at all. For that matter neither is Alistair, who will react like he's King post-Landsmeet, regardless of what actually happened. Now there's no point in keeping him in favor of Loghain, unless I make him King - because if I don't make him King but keep him, all i'll get is immersion breaking bugged dialogue.



But thats something else altogether.

[Maconbar]

Faerieheart wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

The orlesians already made an attempt on his life, and failing that nearly kidnapped Maric, and that's the only plot he's foiled already that we know about.

We know the orlesian's have spies and such in Fereldan, his paranoia is built upon a lifetime of actualities and experiences. You're all acting like Orlais has been just sitting there with their thumbs up their ass this whole time.

Just because we don't see it with a BLIGHT going on doesn't mean it's not happening, Anything like this would be subtle, and no one would admit to it.

So Loghain thought the best course of action was to kill off two powerful nobles and the king, thus causing a civil war as a strategy to "strengthen" Ferelden... Which leaves it ripe for Orlais by the end of the game.

So glad we have this tactical genius on our side...

Killing king Cailin was not part of the plan.  Killing off those who supported Orlesian friendship that had his ear was.

Let's assume that you are correct. What is Cailan's likely response to Howe's attack on Cousland? I would argue that Cailan would have to crush that affront to his rule. At best it appears that Loghain is trying to isolate Cailan by eliminating Cailan supporters.

[KnightofPhoenix]

We can understand Loghain's character if we think about it more. But the game doesn't do a good job of actually making us understand, even after we have him in our party.



If indeed he never planned for the beacon to be lit, nor wouldn't he have attacked if it was lit, then why did he wait? Why did Loghain retreat only when the beacon was lit, why didn't he retreat before? This to me shows that his retreat was a last minute decision, even if he contemplated it earlier. The beacon was lit too late and Loghain's attack might have been unconsequential, the battle was already lost. Indeed, Cailan and Duncan die only a few minutes after the beacon is lit. So it's clear that the beacon was lit too late. Loghain's intervention wouldn't have saved Cailan and Duncan. So it's seems only prudent that he retreats and save his forces from slaughter.



I don't see Loghain masterminding all this. The true mastermind seems to be Howe. It worked too conviently for him. If he had succeeded in killing the Couslands, then he could have said anything. Thus, I don't think Loghain had anything to do with Hoew killing the couslands. The mistake in Howe's plan is that one of the couslands might survive (a thing that doesn't happen for 5 origins and no one disputes Howe's rule in Highever). Furthermore, Jowan was hired by Howe's men to poison Eamon. We don't really know how Loghain was implicated. The crows were contacted by Howe. Howe kidnapped the Queen....etc. I wouldn't have been surprised to se Howe killing Loghain and making himself king.



I doubt Loghain is the master manipulator type. He is a soldier and warrior. Howe on the otherhand is a rogue in the game, which kinda of allude to this.

[Spetulhu]

Suron wrote...

Loghain wasn't expecting the beacon...and is why he waited for it to be lit to leave.

unless he already had it planned there's no reason for him to have left when it was lit.

No, he was waiting for the beacon to be lit. Remember that it's the signal for his supposed flank charge - the king's forces are squarely engaged with the main body of darkspawn. It makes sense to wait for the beacon so you know the Grey Wardens are fully committed to the battle with no chance of getting out. His men in the tower were either expendable or their officers had orders to pull out once the beacon was lit, securing something or other somewhere else.

[The Angry One]

If Loghain knew the beacon was lit too late... he wouldn't need the beacon.
The whole point of the beacon is to let him know when to charge, as he has no frame of reference being too far from the battle to see. And they don't exactly have stopwatches in Ferelden.

Besides look at his face at the war council when he says "Yes Cailan, a glorious day for us alll..", I half expected him to break out in maniacal laughter, he was clearly plotting something. First time I played and saw that I immediately thought "Yep, this guy's a traitor."
Then there's Howe's actions against the Couslands which would NEVER work if Cailan remained alive, and Loghain's poisoning of Eamon. He was plotting this for a long time.

Edit: Oh as for Howe becoming King, that'd never work either. Loghain was a national hero, and half the Bannorn were still up in arms over him becoming Regent. NOBODY likes Howe (and hey, Howe killed Bryce, the only person in the entire kingdom who did like him, classy guy) and would never accept him within 10 feet of the throne.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:34 .

[KalosCast]

A gaping hole in the "not planning it" argument is that Eamon was poisoned before the battle at Ostagar.

Modifié par KalosCast, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:37 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
Then there's Howe's actions against the Couslands which would NEVER work if Cailan remained alive, and Loghain's poisoning of Eamon. He was plotting this for a long time.

Why wouldn't it? If all the couslands are dead, Howe can make up any lie he wants and Cailan will just accept it, seeing that Howe was the advisor of the couslands. Duncan even says so. Howe can get away with it, unless Cailan is informed, but he wasn't except for 1 origin. That doesn't show how Loghain plotted this. He might have known about it and not cared, but it's not proof that Loghain planned all this.

The Templar sent to arrest Jowan was captured by Howe's men, not Loghain's (it's not clear he even knew of this). Jowan was sent to poison Eamon by Howe. The elf sent to spy on redcliff was sent by Howe. Zevran was hired by Howe...etc Seems to me that Howe was doing all the work and Loghain just accepting it later (that is if he even knew about some of them).

And that isthe problem I guess. It's not clear who is doing what.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:43 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why wouldn't it? If all the couslands are dead, Howe can make up any lie he wants and Cailan will just accept it, seeing that Howe was the advisor of the couslands. Duncan even says so. Howe can get away with it, unless Cailan is informed, but he wasn't except for 1 origin. That doesn't show how Loghain plotted this. He might have known about it and not cared, but it's not proof that Loghain planned all this.

That's Duncan's speculation, but there's no guarantee that NOBODY would get out of castle Cousland alive to bare witness.
Cailan himself doesn't see how Howe could've gotten away with it; as I said nobody likes Howe. Cailan might have just arrested him on principle.

The Templar sent to arrest Jowan was captured by Howe's men, not Loghain's (it's not clear he even knew of this). Jowan was sent by Howe. The elf sent to spy on redcliff was sent by Howe. Zevran was hired by Howe...etc Seems to me that Howe was doing all the work and Loghain just accepting it later (that is if he even knew about some of them).

Jowan specifically says that he was hired by Loghain, who convinced him to poison Eamon by offering him a chance for freedom and saying it'd be doing a duty for his country.
Howe's men do the dirty work because Howe is basically Loghain's gopher, and as Sergeant Kylon says, Howe's men are basically criminals themselves so are more adept at the dirtier dealings.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 décembre 2009 - 10:45 .

[Bullets McDeath]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Then there's Howe's actions against the Couslands which would NEVER work if Cailan remained alive, and Loghain's poisoning of Eamon. He was plotting this for a long time.

Why wouldn't it? If all the couslands are dead, Howe can make up any lie he wants and Cailan will just accept it, seeing that Howe was the advisor of the couslands. Duncan even says so. Howe can get away with it, unless Cailan is informed, but he wasn't except for 1 origin. That doesn't show how Loghain plotted this. He might have known about it and not cared, but it's not proof that Loghain planned all this.

The Templar sent to arrest Jowan was captured by Howe's men, not Loghain's (it's not clear he even knew of this). Jowan was sent to poison Eamon by Howe. The elf sent to spy on redcliff was sent by Howe. Zevran was hired by Howe...etc Seems to me that Howe was doing all the work and Loghain just accepting it later (that is if he even knew about some of them).

And that isthe problem I guess. It's not clear who is doing what.

Doing my best to stay out of this thread, but Howe would not have just gotten away with the Cousland coup if Cailan had lived, as the PC and Duncan inform Cailan of Howe's treachery and Calain vows his first action after Ostagar will be seeing Howe hanged.

[Bullets McDeath]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Then there's Howe's actions against the Couslands which would NEVER work if Cailan remained alive, and Loghain's poisoning of Eamon. He was plotting this for a long time.

Why wouldn't it? If all the couslands are dead, Howe can make up any lie he wants and Cailan will just accept it, seeing that Howe was the advisor of the couslands. Duncan even says so. Howe can get away with it, unless Cailan is informed, but he wasn't except for 1 origin. That doesn't show how Loghain plotted this. He might have known about it and not cared, but it's not proof that Loghain planned all this.

The Templar sent to arrest Jowan was captured by Howe's men, not Loghain's (it's not clear he even knew of this). Jowan was sent to poison Eamon by Howe. The elf sent to spy on redcliff was sent by Howe. Zevran was hired by Howe...etc Seems to me that Howe was doing all the work and Loghain just accepting it later (that is if he even knew about some of them).

And that isthe problem I guess. It's not clear who is doing what.

Doing my best to stay out of this thread, but Howe would not have just gotten away with the Cousland coup if Cailan had lived, as the PC and Duncan inform Cailan of Howe's treachery and Calain vows his first action after Ostagar will be seeing Howe hanged.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
That's Duncan's speculation, but there's no guarantee that NOBODY would get out of castle Cousland alive to bare witness.
Cailan himself doesn't see how Howe could've gotten away with it; as I said nobody likes Howe. Cailan might have just arrested him on principle.

Jowan specifically says that he was hired by Loghain, who convinced him to poison Eamon by offering him a chance for freedom and saying it'd be doing a duty for his country.
Howe's men do the dirty work because Howe is basically Loghain's gopher, and as Sergeant Kylon says, Howe's men are basically criminals themselves so are more adept at the dirtier dealings.

Well all 5 other origins show that no one made it out alive from the castle and no noble ever spoke of it. Why would Cailan arrest him on principle if he doesn't even know that it's Howe who killed them? Cailan said that after he knew about the deed, if we play the noble origin. Otherwise, he wouldn't have known.

Ah yes now I remember you are right. Although I remember he said that he was hired by Loghain's men and not specifically by Loghain in person. Loghain's men could be Howe's.
But indeed, I do not see why Loghain would poison Eamon. If he feared his opposition, then why didn't he poison Teagan as well? Doesn't make much sense. Eammon doesn't have a stronger claim to the throne than him and his daughter. And if it was civil war he wanted to avoid, then killing off both Teagan and Eammon would have been the sensible thing to do.

Eh, I guesss that shows you that humans are very feeble at politics. Bhelen would have executed his plan with perfection. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

outlaworacle wrote...
Doing my best to stay out of this thread, but Howe would not have just gotten away with the Cousland coup if Cailan had lived, as the PC and Duncan inform Cailan of Howe's treachery and Calain vows his first action after Ostagar will be seeing Howe hanged.

That's if you are a human noble. Which is why HOwe wanted you dead. In all other 5 origins, no one speaks of the coup.

[KethWolfheart]

Riot Inducer wrote...

Faerieheart wrote...

Killing king Cailin was not part of the plan.  Killing off those who supported Orlesian friendship that had his ear was.

Except that the only way to get away with offing said Orlesian sympathizers was to make sure the king couldn't come down on him for it...there's no way Howe would have gone ahead with killing off the Couslands unless he knew he could get off scott free. As you see in the human noble origin Cailin is pretty pissed to hear of Howe's treachery, if Cailin had survived Ostagar there's no way Howe could've kept his newfound titles much less his life. Cailin's death was definitely planned out and known to Howe long before it happened.

Faireheart has been very calm and I admire her debate. However there are to many holes in the logic, as the quote above is one example.

I don't think Loghain wanted power for powers sake, he wanted it to "protect" his home.  But he caused more harm to his home in his actions than good because of his paranoia.

I read both books and played through the game more than once.  I liked Loghain a lot in Book One.  By the end of book two I disliked him because I saw how he had developed a pathological hatred of Orleis that was blinding him to rational thinking.

By the time I finished the game I despised him but also pitied him a little, but he deserved death regardless.  In his own mad little mind maybe he thought he was right (even this changes when he sees reason at the end), but his actions did more harm than good.

Modifié par KethWolfheart, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think anyone here is saying that Loghain was succesful. We are rather trying to understand the logic behind his actions, which is reasonable but at fault. Even he knows that he is wrong. And is man enough to admit it, just not in front of noblemen who did nothing to protect Ferelden, while he was the one who freed his country.



He made a mistake and is willing to rectify it, even if it means sacrificing his life. I can not but spare him and I am usaully known to be merciless.

[Realmzmaster]

Loghain plan would have worked had he not retreated. I have serious problems with Ser Cauthrien. She chose loyalty over duty. Her duty was to the King. When Loghain decided to retreat while the King was still breathing or his status unknown, it was her duty to relieve Loghain of command and attack. The plan was a classic hammer and anvil approach. The King's forces drew the attack to them (The anvil). Loghanin forces were the hammer that would strike once the metal (darkspawn) was in place.
Loghain could not have known whether the tower lighting was late or early. Duncan stated that the entire battlefield could be seen from the tower. Loghain could not see the entire battlefield, therefore he had to wait for the signal to be lit. He now had a choice attack or retreat.

At that point in time the battle was not lost. If Loghain had attack the darkspawn forces would have been caught between the two forces. Fighting the same battle on two fronts is difficult. The darkspawn could have been crushed. Loghain passed up that opportunity. Loghain had no idea of the state of the King. He was duty bound to rescue his king by carrying out the plan.

Flemeth who had an aerial view told Morrigan that Loghain quit the field and the darkspawn slaughtered everyone. Now he has to go back home and try to build an army from peasants and unseasoned soldiers to augment his remaining army. His heavy handness causing civil war.

Also he orgainzes the new army under his banner, not the Queen's. Even if he is regent, the army is the Queen's army and should be under her banner since her husband is dead.

I do not care how much of a tactical genius he thinks he was, he could not see the entire battlefield. He had to wait for the signal. His plan was to keep his army out of the fight or retreat from the beginning. He was surprised when the signal was lit. Why were Loghain men the only one's allowed in the tower. Surely if there were darkspawn to fight, the Grey wardens should have been there to detect the incursion. Maybe that is why everyone was kept out. The Grey wardens could have forewarned everyone that the darkspawn where present in the tunnels under the tower.. 

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:12 .

[The Angry One]

If you don't play a noble then there are still rumors of how castle Cousland was raided and the entire noble family killed and how Howe's men now occupy Highever.

It wouldn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and Cailan with his high sense of justice and glorious battle could very well decide to bring the hammer down on Howe, the unpopular wastrel of an Arl who oh so conveniently arrived just in time to not save his Teryn and take over Highever.

[Untarr]

The Angry One wrote...

If Loghain knew the beacon was lit too late... he wouldn't need the beacon.
The whole point of the beacon is to let him know when to charge, as he has no frame of reference being too far from the battle to see. And they don't exactly have stopwatches in Ferelden.

Besides look at his face at the war council when he says "Yes Cailan, a glorious day for us alll..", I half expected him to break out in maniacal laughter, he was clearly plotting something. First time I played and saw that I immediately thought "Yep, this guy's a traitor."
Then there's Howe's actions against the Couslands which would NEVER work if Cailan remained alive, and Loghain's poisoning of Eamon. He was plotting this for a long time.

Edit: Oh as for Howe becoming King, that'd never work either. Loghain was a national hero, and half the Bannorn were still up in arms over him becoming Regent. NOBODY likes Howe (and hey, Howe killed Bryce, the only person in the entire kingdom who did like him, classy guy) and would never accept him within 10 feet of the throne.

This ^ , the whole argument about him "reading" the battlefield is rendered moot by the fact that he couldn't see it, hence needing the beacon in the first place.

Also, if you play through the human noble origin and speak to him in his tent (which you can do with a high enough persuasion), the conversation is very interesting.  Apparently he knew about the assassination through rumors, but yet when you tell the king, apparently he has heard nothing, stating that news out of the north has been sparce. 

I honestly think it was a power play on his part due to his paranoia about Orlais.  He saw the king underminding all the work that he and King Malic had done (inviting in Orlais Legions commanded by Grey Wardens, being advised by people who could be sympathetic to Orlais) and decided to do something about him and anyone who would support him or Orlais.  This belief that its all an Orlais plot however is very understandable IF you do not know about the archdemon.  To him, these monsters are just the excuse Orlais has been looking for to reconquer Ferelden.  Instead of letting that happen, he decided to take advantage of the situation, and in his mind using the Orlaisian scheme to keep them out of Ferelden for good.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

If you don't play a noble then there are still rumors of how castle Cousland was raided and the entire noble family killed and how Howe's men now occupy Highever.
It wouldn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and Cailan with his high sense of justice and glorious battle could very well decide to bring the hammer down on Howe, the unpopular wastrel of an Arl who oh so conveniently arrived just in time to not save his Teryn and take over Highever.

They remain rumors. Howe could have said anything, like a bandit raid or a failed coup by someone else and he is the only one alive. Those rumours do not say Howe did all this. Even the nobles, who hate Howe, didn't say anything about the issue and did nothing.

Howe took a risk no doubt, but all actions have risk. It does not show that Loghain was implicated in any of this. Indeed if he was, then he could have had the option, as a human noble, to apprehend Loghain on this. But we don't. So all of this is speculation. Possible, but just speculation.
 
AS for the beacon. Then why did he even wait for it to be lit? Why didn't he retreat before? It doesn't make sense. Actually, the whole battle doesn't make any sense from a tactical point of view. But he could still determine if it's too late via time. If someone was supposed to give you a signal and doesn't or does so after a long period of time, then we can surmise that it was too late.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:24 .

[Vicious]

Well all 5 other origins show that no one made it out alive from the castle and no noble ever spoke of it. Why would Cailan arrest him on principle if he doesn't even know that it's Howe who killed them? Cailan said that after he knew about the deed, if we play the noble origin. Otherwise, he wouldn't have known.

That is a very good point, I had forgotten this. Add to that, if you play any other origin there's not much dispute of Howe ruling Highever. Hell it's barely mentioned, and certainly only mentioned once that he betrayed the Couslands - Just heresay, not exactly what a King could act upon.


That said, Loghain wasting his forces on the battle was ultimately pointless, as was the entire battle. The Archdemon was still below ground, so kill all the Darkspawn and win all the battles you like - until the Archdemon is dead you're still losing.

Cailan was a glory-hunting idiot and the Grey Wardens didn't exactly put any sense into his head.

This doesn't excuse anything Loghain did. Just saying.


Lots of Cailan fans in this thread.

Modifié par Vicious, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:22 .