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[The Angry One]

Actually Loghain's just mad because Cailan is wearing Chevalier armor =P



Seriously though enough paranoia can turn the best of us into seething, bitter fools. And that's what Loghain became.

He might have poisoned Eamon and not Teagan not only because Eamon had the most influence, but Eamon *married an Orlesian and made her an Arlessa* and hey, the next Arl of Redcliffe is now half-Orlesian.

Bryce had good relations with Orlais, often visiting it. I don't think it's coincidence that every victim of Loghain's power play was friendly with the Orlesians, from Cailan to Eamon to Bryce.

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If
you don't play a noble then there are still rumors of how castle
Cousland was raided and the entire noble family killed and how Howe's
men now occupy Highever.
It wouldn't take a genius to put 2 and 2
together and Cailan with his high sense of justice and glorious battle
could very well decide to bring the hammer down on Howe, the unpopular
wastrel of an Arl who oh so conveniently arrived just in time to not
save his Teryn and take over Highever.

They remain
rumors. Howe could have said anything, like a bandit raid or a failed
coup by someone else and he is the only one alive. Those rumours do not
say Howe did all this. Even the nobles, who hate Howe, didn't say
anything about the issue and did nothing.

Howe took a risk no
doubt, but all actions have risk. It does not show that Loghain was
implicated in any of this. Indeed if he wasn, then he could have had
the option, as a human noble, to apprehend Loghain on this. But we
don't. So all of this is speculation. Possible, but just speculation.
 
AS
for the beacon. Then why did he even wait for it to be lit? Why didn't
he retreat before? It doesn't make sense. Actually, the whole battle
doesn't make any sense from a tactical point of view. But he could
still determine if it's too late via time. If someone was supposed to
give you a signal and doesn't or does so after a long period of time,
then we can surmise that it was too late.

The point is it's far less of a risk if Howe were to have a guarantee that Cailan would soon be... out of the picture.
In the human noble origin, Howe's utter disdain for Cailan is made obvious if you talk to him.

Vicious wrote...

Well all 5 other origins show that no one made it out alive from the castle and no noble ever spoke of it. Why would Cailan arrest him on principle if he doesn't even know that it's Howe who killed them? Cailan said that after he knew about the deed, if we play the noble origin. Otherwise, he wouldn't have known.

That is a very good point, I had forgotten this. Add to that, if you play any other origin there's not much dispute of Howe ruling Highever. Hell it's barely mentioned, and certainly only mentioned once that he betrayed the Couslands - Just heresay, not exactly what a King could act upon.


That said, Loghain wasting his forces on the battle was ultimately pointless, as was the entire battle. The Archdemon was still below ground, so kill all the Darkspawn and win all the battles you like - until the Archdemon is dead you're still losing.

Cailan was a glory-hunting idiot and the Grey Wardens didn't exactly put any sense into his head.

This doesn't excuse anything Loghain did. Just saying.


Lots of Cailan fans in this thread.

Keep in mind that whether you think the plan would've worked or not, it was a plan drawn up by Loghain himself.
So if it was doomed to fail, then it was so because Loghain intended it to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...

Actually Loghain's just mad because Cailan is wearing Chevalier armor =P

Seriously though enough paranoia can turn the best of us into seething, bitter fools. And that's what Loghain became.
He might have poisoned Eamon and not Teagan not only because Eamon had the most influence, but Eamon *married an Orlesian and made her an Arlessa* and hey, the next Arl of Redcliffe is now half-Orlesian.
Bryce had good relations with Orlais, often visiting it. I don't think it's coincidence that every victim of Loghain's power play was friendly with the Orlesians, from Cailan to Eamon to Bryce.

Perhaps. But all of Ferelden's nobles had something to do with the Orlesians, even collaborated with them. Since Loghain was a peasant, he had nothing to do with Orlais. So I don't think he was doing all this simply because they have something to do with Orlesians.
I do not doubt Loghain's paranoia vis a vis Orlais, which is understandable. I just doubt it was to this point. But perhaps it is. Sadly we have little insight on the character.

[Wynne]

Faerieheart wrote...

Cailin or take the thrown.  He just wanted the Orlesians to stay out of Fereldan.

Thrown is the past tense of a verb. Throne is a thing you sit on. You mean throne.

It's clear enough from his facial expressions and dialogue with Cailan that Loghain did everything he could to convince Cailan to give up--because he knew beforehand exactly what was going to happen to Cailan if he didn't leave the battlefield now--and when Cailan continually refused, Loghain considered everything that followed to be Cailan's fault. He clearly rationalized that it was Cailan's own foolishness that was killing him.

Loghain was not even a fraction as naive as he would have to be to think the Grey Wardens would die and Cailan might magically survive Ostagar. He just decided it was all Cailan's own choice to not listen to reason. You can see throughout all of Ostagar his steady, unwavering face; hear his cold tone of voice. He was full of resolve. He did not spontaneously decide when the beacon wasn't lit. He was immediately in Ser Cauthrien's face when she questioned him; there was no hesitation or regret. He even looks to be faintly smirking after she turns away; in either case, he is certainly not as emotional as he pretended. There's no pain or sadness on his face; no tears, no sad shake of the head. He had long since decided and he blames Cailan. Otherwise, he would have tried to save Cailan and open his eyes about the Orlesians. Instead, he dryly insults Cailan time after time and simply walks away.

Loghain had nothing left to live for after Rowan and Maric died. Only his patriotism was left. He became increasingly delusional, refused to entertain the idea that perhaps the Grey Wardens actually were necessary. His lack of imagination and lack of purpose drove him to horrible means. His assumption that hard choices must be made strayed into ridiculous territory.

He was once a noble man... but by this time he's grasping and clutching at things that have already slipped far out of his hands. Ironically, he would have damned his nation in the process of telling himself he was saving it. As slackbheep said, he saw Orlesian blades in every shadow--his ideas about Orlais were NOT justified, they were pure paranoia, almost a jealousy, like--you're Fereldans, how DARE you try to make any kind of peace with Orlais! And he justified it all with his own imagination, taking measures the equivalent of killing your child to make sure they don't grow up to be a serial killer/rapist. He really is a tragic and fascinating character whose motives you can understand... but a clear villain, no longer an antihero. He crossed the line entirely and his actions cannot be justified in any reasonable fashion. Yes, he thought everything was a vicious Orlesian plot... but he refused to EVER entertain the idea that he might be wrong, which is pure megalomania.

[Alienraptor]

The only sensible explanations are either that Loghain was paranoid and delusional or he was a poorly conceived character. His actions are all over the map (no pun intended), and do not even vaguely resemble those of a sensible and well-functioning mind, never mind those of the masterful tactician he was supposed to have been.

It was painfully optimistic at best to think that abandoning the Grey Wardens and a significant regular force at Ostagar would in any way strengthen Ferelden, whether against the Blight or Orlais.

Neither Loghain nor his sympathizers ever produce a shred of evidence that Orlais poses any threat. Only an individual with severe paranoia would consider the Orlesian threat sufficient to act as Loghain did. Had Orlais been seeking an opportunity to invade, the aftermath of the actual events would have been ideal, and it did not happen, demonstrating the unsubstantiated nature of such claims.

I don't know why anyone insists on defending Loghain, beyond arguing that his actions can be made to fit into a certain type of mindset (i.e. someone so paranoid that much of their ability to reason is no longer functioning), rather than merely the product of some incomplete character conceptions (an explanation that is at least similarly probable).

[The Angry One]

I wonder if Loghain also came to resent Cailan because he had yet to produce an heir with Anora.

5 years together with no child is a rather long time in royal terms particularily as royal marriages were often done for the express purpose of producing an heir.



Cailan's tent guard says how Loghain and Cailan would constantly argue over something involving Anora, and this might be what it was about.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain had every reason to suspect an Orlesian invasion or at least threat.



A - most of the Grey Wardens are from Orlais. And the Grey Wardens have tried to take the throne in Ferelden in the past. It is entirely possible they seek to do it again. He thinks he doesn't need Grey Wardens because Grey Wardens don't tell their secret to anyone, aka that they are tainted. The only thing that makes people believe (not know) that only the Grey Wardens can defeat the blight are tales that are 400 years old. It's not irrational for Loghain to simply dismiss the stories as over exagerrated myths.



- Orlais was going to send legions of Chevaliers, at the behest of Cailan and the Grey Wardens. Think about it. Every country in the world today thinks a million times before calling for a foreign army to its soil and that's with the presence of mutual security organisations and military alliances. Imagine then a country calling for an army to come to your soil only 30 years after it was kicked out. Orlais and Ferelden were not allies nor were they part of some collective security organisation that can regulate the intervention, like NATO does. Even the Coalitions against Napoleon were weary of allowing each other's armies to come to their soil. Heck, even De Gaulle was extremily worried about American troops in France in WW2 and they were allies! So it's not unreasonable at all for Loghain to fear the arrival of Orlesians. What garantees are there for the Orlesians to leave Ferelden after the business is done? Suppose that there wasn't a blight. What would Ferelden tell the Legions of Orlais? "Oops, I guess it's no blight, you can all go home now"?



Loghain's fear of the Orlesians is not unreasonable nor unfounded. It is rather exagerrated (or his reaction was). But his thinking is sound. No country today alllows foreign troops in its land after shedding much blood to kick them out, without thinking a million times about it. The Soviets bloody shot Allied planes when they tresspassed on their airspace in WW2!

[Alienraptor]

KnightofPhoenix, given what you've presented, Loghain had two flimsy reasons, not "every reason."

Riordan reveals that most Grey Wardens are in are Anderfels, where Weisshaupt Castle stands. While Orlais has more Wardens than Ferelden, it is not special with respect to the order; Anderfels is. His suspicions of the Wardens are at best very misguided and selective, focusing only on their secrecy and disregarding their generally good standing in history and other parts of the world.

It is true that real nations are very hesitant to allow foreign troops on their own soil. But given the lack of any significant ties between the Wardens or Cailan and Orlesian interests, any reasonable person would have acquired evidence of some consequence before coming to Loghain's conclusions. That he did not only demonstrates his delusional paranoia.

What is more, neither of the reasons you presented suggests the presence of any motive on the part of Orlais to invade, only very far-fetched circumstantial possibilities. What is to say that the Dalish, who are an entirely different race, scorned by humans and who have not had the smoothest historical relationship with Humanity, did not have ulterior motives? The evidence in favor of this hypothesis is no worse than that in favor of the Orlesian invasion fiction.

Modifié par Alienraptor, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alienraptor wrote...

KnightofPhoenix, given what you've presented, Loghain had two flimsy reasons, not "every reason."
Riordan reveals that most Grey Wardens are in are Anderfels, where Weisshaupt Castle stands. While Orlais has more Wardens than Ferelden, it is not special with respect to the order; Anderfels is. His suspicions of the Wardens are at best very misguided and selective, focusing only on their secrecy and disregarding their generally good standing in history and other parts of the world.
It is true that real nations are very hesitant to allow foreign troops on their own soil. But given the lack of any significant ties between the Wardens or Cailan and Orlesian interests, any reasonable person would have acquired evidence of some consequence before coming to Loghain's conclusions. That he did not only demonstrates his delusional paranoia.
What is more, neither of the reasons you presented suggests the presence of any motive on the part of Orlais to invade, only very far-fetched circumstantial possibilities. What is to say that the Dalish, who are an entirely different race, scorned by humans and who have not had the smoothest historical relationship with Humanity, did not have ulterior motives? The evidence in favor of this hypothesis is no worse than that in favor of the Orlesian invasion fiction.

The Grey Wardens present in Ferelden are from Orlais, not Anderfels., I should have clarified That's first. So that makes your first two points moot.

Sure, we don't know what Orlais plans (that means you don't know if they were planing an invasion or not, both are a possibility). But politics and especially international politics is always assuming the worst. Loghain did so. The Dalish could have betrayed Ferelden obviously, but they are too weak to be of any real consequence and it would have been against their interests. Orlais on the otherhand was about to send legions of chevaliers that ravaged the country before and it took everything Ferelden had to kick them out. Even if they did help against the blight, Orlais' interest would be to remain in Ferelden or make sure it becomes part of their sphere of influence, like any sensible country (or Empire) would have done.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[DeathWyrmNexus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If you don't play a noble then there are still rumors of how castle Cousland was raided and the entire noble family killed and how Howe's men now occupy Highever.
It wouldn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and Cailan with his high sense of justice and glorious battle could very well decide to bring the hammer down on Howe, the unpopular wastrel of an Arl who oh so conveniently arrived just in time to not save his Teryn and take over Highever.

They remain rumors. Howe could have said anything, like a bandit raid or a failed coup by someone else and he is the only one alive. Those rumours do not say Howe did all this. Even the nobles, who hate Howe, didn't say anything about the issue and did nothing.

Howe took a risk no doubt, but all actions have risk. It does not show that Loghain was implicated in any of this. Indeed if he was, then he could have had the option, as a human noble, to apprehend Loghain on this. But we don't. So all of this is speculation. Possible, but just speculation.
 
AS for the beacon. Then why did he even wait for it to be lit? Why didn't he retreat before? It doesn't make sense. Actually, the whole battle doesn't make any sense from a tactical point of view. But he could still determine if it's too late via time. If someone was supposed to give you a signal and doesn't or does so after a long period of time, then we can surmise that it was too late.

He waited because he doesn't use half his ass. He wanted to make sure he was needed and then left. If the beacon never lit up, he would be inclined to investigate to see if the king had failed or succeeded. If he wanted the king dead, then he would need to make sure what happened. If he wanted the king alive, he would need to investigate with scouts.

As it was, he waited for it to be lit because he wanted to make sure what happened. The beacon was lit when the plan was ready to succeed or fail. With that many Darkspawn, it was vital for him to show but he had to be sure.

[DariusKalera]

It is said in the game that 4 legions from Orleis, not counting Grey Wardens, were turned back at the border. A legion ran from 4,200-5,200 troops and that's just the fighting men, its not counting the smiths, farriers, prostitutes, looters, and any other type of person that follows or accompanies an army of that size. All together, there could have been a force of well over 20,000 individuals waiting to enter a country that had just thrown them out 30 years before.



A force of that size on their border, would make any one paranoid.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

He waited because he doesn't use half his ass. He wanted to make sure he was needed and then left. If the beacon never lit up, he would be inclined to investigate to see if the king had failed or succeeded. If he wanted the king dead, then he would need to make sure what happened. If he wanted the king alive, he would need to investigate with scouts.

As it was, he waited for it to be lit because he wanted to make sure what happened. The beacon was lit when the plan was ready to succeed or fail. With that many Darkspawn, it was vital for him to show but he had to be sure.

Ok considering how simplistic (and barbaric) the battle turned out to be, there was no perfect moment for Loghain to wait for. Second, the PC and Alistair had no idea when this moment where it would succeed or fail was, as they didn't see the battlefield and rushed to just get it lit. The beacon was not to be lit in that perfect moment. It was to be lit as soon as possible.
If the beacon wasn't lit, then the King would have failed anyhow. If the beacon was lit and Loghain didn't intervene, the King would have failed anyhow. So no, the lightening oif the beacon doesn't show Loghain the king was about to die. As the kign was not the one who lights the beacon. 

What you offer is nothing more than speculation and fandom. Perhaps you can clarify that by saying "maybe", "perhaps", "I think", rather than state it as fact.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...

He waited because he doesn't use half his ass. He wanted to make sure he was needed and then left. If the beacon never lit up, he would be inclined to investigate to see if the king had failed or succeeded. If he wanted the king dead, then he would need to make sure what happened. If he wanted the king alive, he would need to investigate with scouts.

As it was, he waited for it to be lit because he wanted to make sure what happened. The beacon was lit when the plan was ready to succeed or fail. With that many Darkspawn, it was vital for him to show but he had to be sure.

Ok considering how simplistic (and barbaric) the battle turned out to be, there was no perfect moment for Loghain to wait for. Second, the PC and Alistair had no idea when this moment where it would succeed or fail was, as they didn't see the battlefield and rushed to just get it lit. The beacon was not to be lit in that perfect moment. It was to be lit as soon as possible.
If the beacon wasn't lit, then the King would have failed anyhow. If the beacon was lit and Loghain didn't intervene, the King would have failed anyhow. So no, the lightening oif the beacon doesn't show Loghain the king was about to die. As the kign was not the one who lights the beacon. 

What you offer is nothing more than speculation and fandom. Perhaps you can clarify that by saying "maybe", "perhaps", "I think", rather than state it as fact.

Fandom? of who? That is a question I would like answered since I kill Loghain every time. Perhaps he was feeling dramatic. Perhaps you can stop being a blithering ****. Perhaps maybe I think you are just arguing to argue now.

[KnightofPhoenix]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
Fandom? of who? That is a question I would like answered since I kill Loghain every time. Perhaps he was feeling dramatic. Perhaps you can stop being a blithering ****. Perhaps maybe I think you are just arguing to argue now.

Well perhaps you should spare him once and see.
And there is no need to turn a perfectly civil thread into a vulgar argument.
And no, not all people who dare have an opinion different than yours, argue just for the sake of arguing.  

[DeathWyrmNexus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
Fandom? of who? That is a question I would like answered since I kill Loghain every time. Perhaps he was feeling dramatic. Perhaps you can stop being a blithering ****. Perhaps maybe I think you are just arguing to argue now.

Well perhaps you should spare him once and see.
And there is no need to turn a perfectly civil thread into a vulgar argument.
And no, not all people who dare have an opinion different than yours, argue just for the sake of arguing.  

I actually consider being called a fanboy in a debate as an insult. I can concede the issue of speculation but when you said fandom, you deserved what you got. It really is that simple. If you want a civil debate, then be civil. Otherwise, don't be surprised when I become less civil.

Also, spare him once and see what? What does sparing him have to do with fandom? I spared him once to get the acheivement and then reloaded.

So, if you want civility, we can go that route but do keep the fandom crap out of it since I don't even see what you were calling me a fan of.

Sure, it is speculation just as everything else. Consider it conceded, next point?

[KnightofPhoenix]

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
I actually consider being called a fanboy in a debate as an insult. I can concede the issue of speculation but when you said fandom, you deserved what you got. It really is that simple. If you want a civil debate, then be civil. Otherwise, don't be surprised when I become less civil.

Also, spare him once and see what? What does sparing him have to do with fandom? I spared him once to get the acheivement and then reloaded.

So, if you want civility, we can go that route but do keep the fandom crap out of it since I don't even see what you were calling me a fan of.

Sure, it is speculation just as everything else. Consider it conceded, next point?

By fandom, I meant a story written by a fan and is not official. It has nothing to do with fanboyism, I assure you.

[SeanMurphy2]

I think Loghain never took the Darkspawn threat seriously. They had scouting parties to draw out the bulk of the Darkspawn horde. It is like they were hunting and culling the Darkspawn rather than worrying about them invading Ferelden. There are always bands of Darkspawn wandering to the surface. I don't think many Fereldens were worrying about a Blight or thought the army should be sent to Ostager.

In Loghain's mind the Darkspawn threat was a non issue. He was probably fixated on the threat from Orlais and trying to convince the King to worry about Orlais rather than the Darkspawn. He seems impatient to leave Ostager and move his army North.

Whether or not he planned a betrayal. I don't think Loghain wants to lose most of his army in a close battle fighting Darkspawn. I don't think he expects an Archdemon to appear and for them to rampage through the Kingdom. He may view them as mindless beasts who will hang around the Korcari Wilds. He thinks the real threat is the Orlesians who could invade while the whole army is distracted in the South.

He dislikes the influence the Grey Warden's have on Cailan. He does not think the King or his armies should even be in Ostager.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[Maconbar]

The Angry One wrote...

I wonder if Loghain also came to resent Cailan because he had yet to produce an heir with Anora.
5 years together with no child is a rather long time in royal terms particularily as royal marriages were often done for the express purpose of producing an heir.

Cailan's tent guard says how Loghain and Cailan would constantly argue over something involving Anora, and this might be what it was about.

Good point about failing to produce an heir. Looking at parallels to medieval history, maybe Cailan would need to start thinking about setting Anora aside in order to find a queen that can provide an heir (given that during this time frame, this failure would be linked to the female and not the male). This would give Loghain more of a motive to betray Cailan.

Modifié par Maconbar, 07 décembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

As has been discussed before, I don't think Loghain ever intended for the beacon to be lit at all.

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Alienraptor wrote...

KnightofPhoenix, given what you've presented, Loghain had two flimsy reasons, not "every reason."
Riordan reveals that most Grey Wardens are in are Anderfels, where Weisshaupt Castle stands. While Orlais has more Wardens than Ferelden, it is not special with respect to the order; Anderfels is. His suspicions of the Wardens are at best very misguided and selective, focusing only on their secrecy and disregarding their generally good standing in history and other parts of the world.
It is true that real nations are very hesitant to allow foreign troops on their own soil. But given the lack of any significant ties between the Wardens or Cailan and Orlesian interests, any reasonable person would have acquired evidence of some consequence before coming to Loghain's conclusions. That he did not only demonstrates his delusional paranoia.
What is more, neither of the reasons you presented suggests the presence of any motive on the part of Orlais to invade, only very far-fetched circumstantial possibilities. What is to say that the Dalish, who are an entirely different race, scorned by humans and who have not had the smoothest historical relationship with Humanity, did not have ulterior motives? The evidence in favor of this hypothesis is no worse than that in favor of the Orlesian invasion fiction.

The Grey Wardens present in Ferelden are from Orlais, not Anderfels., I should have clarified That's first. So that makes your first two points moot.

Sure, we don't know what Orlais plans (that means you don't know if they were planing an invasion or not, both are a possibility). But politics and especially international politics is always assuming the worst. Loghain did so. The Dalish could have betrayed Ferelden obviously, but they are too weak to be of any real consequence and it would have been against their interests. Orlais on the otherhand was about to send legions of chevaliers that ravaged the country before and it took everything Ferelden had to kick them out. Even if they did help against the blight, Orlais' interest would be to remain in Ferelden or make sure it becomes part of their sphere of influence, like any sensible country (or Empire) would have done.

The bolded part is false.  The Grey Wardens present at Ostagar are from Ferelden, as far as any of us know, since they were all actually on the field with the rest of the soldiers when we first arrive in Ostagar, and the only ones we actually met were Alistair, who is from Redcliffe, and Duncan who is from Highever.  The Orleasian forces were already turned away from the borders, probably before we even arrived at Ostagar, as you learn from Riordan in the Arl's estate in Denerim.

I sincerely believe that Loghain didn't intend for Cailin to die, initially.  However, once it was clear that the King wasn't going to change his mind, Loghain had two options; go through with his plans as laid out, and charge when the beacon was lit; or betray the King to his death, and have his own story to tell of what happened, since there is no way anyone should have survived Ostagar that didn't pull out with him.  As was already stated previously, Flemeth was an eventuallity that there was no way Loghain could have planned for, as it's doubtful he even knew of her existence relative to the battle.  The fact that Loghain pulled out shows what he decided was best.

The fact that he sees himself as blameless in Cailin's death is evidenced not once, but twice.  Once in a cutscene discussion with Howe and Anora, and once at the Landsmeet.  The sad thing is, that with no Archdemon present at Ostagar, the plan laid out in the cutscene just prior to the battle probably would have worked.  As someone pointed out, it's a classic strategy, draw an enemy to a choke point, and then crush them between two forces.  It wouldn't have stopped the Blight, as the Archdemon wasn't there, but it sure would have ruined the game, or at least made it into something completely different than what it turned out to be.

All in all, I believe that Loghain and Howe planned everything that led up to Ostagar.  It wasn't Howe acting alone, Loghain knew what he wanted to do, and he set out to accomplish it.  Whether he wanted the throne or not, he took it, forcing the civil war.  This says more about what he intended to happen that much of anything else.  I don't know about anyone else, but the first time I played through, walking through Ostagar, exploring the camp, I wondered why the tower was shut off.  The guard's story, and statement about not seeing anything like that had me scratching my head, and then the "Glory for us all" comment by Loghain really had me knowing what was coming, sort of.  I did not expect the darkspawn at Ishal, I expected to be "detained" by Loghain/Howe's men.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Duncan was raised in Orlais, even if his parents were not Orlesians. He came from Orlais. Riordan is Orlesian. Most of the Grey Wardens who came with Duncan and Riordan are from Orlais. The exception, that we know of, is Alistair and the recruits.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Considering the peace treaty between the 2 territories was only 10 years ago and considering for a fair chunk of his life, Loghain has spent it fighting them, I can easily see how he became paranoid and sought to gain the power he figured he needed to ensure there was no repeat of their invasion. I think it isn't just his paranoia but Howe feeding on it and using it to further corrupt him. I believe Howe was looking to rise to an even higher position than he was by any means necessary.



If you spare him and are on the rooftop with him, he admits he made some terrible mistakes and wants to do one last thing right.



I believe that had he known prior to whatever paranoid plan he setup, why the wardens were needed, then he wouldn't have made some of the decisions he did. He would have no doubt still refused to allow the Orlesians in but I think he would have given Duncan more support in getting new recruits so that Ferelden could beat the blight itself on its own (which, it did anyway, well as long as Leliana, Zevran and Sten wasn't involved )

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Duncan was raised in Orlais, even if his parents were not Orlesians. He came from Orlais. Riordan is Orlesian. Most of the Grey Wardens who came with Duncan and Riordan are from Orlais. The exception, that we know of, is Alistair and the recruits.

No Wardens came with Riordan into Ferelden, a fact that he tells you after escaping from the cell.

The only Warden that I know of that Duncan brings to Ostagar, other than the recruits, and Alistair, is the PC.

With Loghain's men actively turning away people at the border, a fact that you learn from Riordan, it is highly unlikely that there are any Wardens from Orlais present at Ostagar.  I have seen nothing in game that would lead me to believe otherwise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Duncan was raised in Orlais, even if his parents were not Orlesians. He came from Orlais. Riordan is Orlesian. Most of the Grey Wardens who came with Duncan and Riordan are from Orlais. The exception, that we know of, is Alistair and the recruits.

No Wardens came with Riordan into Ferelden, a fact that he tells you after escaping from the cell.

The only Warden that I know of that Duncan brings to Ostagar, other than the recruits, and Alistair, is the PC.

With Loghain's men actively turning away people at the border, a fact that you learn from Riordan, it is highly unlikely that there are any Wardens from Orlais present at Ostagar.  I have seen nothing in game that would lead me to believe otherwise.

Both Riordan and Duncan, their Grey warden followers came from Orlais, at the behest of Cailain. So no, Loghain didn't stop them from coming.  

No, there were several Wardens at Ostagar, but they are not shown. If you play the Dwarf noble origin, you will see that there are some Grey Wardens. And seeing how the two senior Grey wArdens came from Orlais, it's very likely that their dozen followers are also from Orlais. I nfact someone tells us this, but I forgot who.

[robertthebard]

When asked, Riordan emphatically states that he came alone. Now, unless alone means something different, that means he didn't bring any followers. Nowhere in my playthroughs has anyone told me that Duncan came from Orlais for the Blight, or that he brought anyone with him from Orlais. The only thing that gets mentioned about Duncan prebattle is that he was getting recruits, and that's more implied than outright discussed, since Jory is from Redcliffe, and Daveth is from a village not far from Ostagar, or at least not far from the Wilds. Alistair does have one story that happened at the fortress of the wardens, but that is in Anderfel(?), the drinking story. The way Alistair talks about it in dialog, it's much farther away than Orlais.