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One glaring inconsistency about Loghain


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#126
DeathWyrmNexus

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DeathWyrmNexus wrote...
I actually consider being called a fanboy in a debate as an insult. I can concede the issue of speculation but when you said fandom, you deserved what you got. It really is that simple. If you want a civil debate, then be civil. Otherwise, don't be surprised when I become less civil.

Also, spare him once and see what? What does sparing him have to do with fandom? I spared him once to get the acheivement and then reloaded.

So, if you want civility, we can go that route but do keep the fandom crap out of it since I don't even see what you were calling me a fan of.

Sure, it is speculation just as everything else. Consider it conceded, next point?


By fandom, I meant a story written by a fan and is not official. It has nothing to do with fanboyism, I assure you.

Apologies then, my blood is too easily riled these days. -_-

#127
KnightofPhoenix

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robertthebard wrote...

When asked, Riordan emphatically states that he came alone. Now, unless alone means something different, that means he didn't bring any followers. Nowhere in my playthroughs has anyone told me that Duncan came from Orlais for the Blight, or that he brought anyone with him from Orlais. The only thing that gets mentioned about Duncan prebattle is that he was getting recruits, and that's more implied than outright discussed, since Jory is from Redcliffe, and Daveth is from a village not far from Ostagar, or at least not far from the Wilds. Alistair does have one story that happened at the fortress of the wardens, but that is in Anderfel(?), the drinking story. The way Alistair talks about it in dialog, it's much farther away than Orlais.


I am positive I heard that somewhere, but I can't remember. Maybe it was the dwarf noble origin. Or Loghain. Will have to check again.

But let's assume you are right, it doesn't change anything. The 2 senior Grey Wardens are Orlesians (Duncan can be seen as an Orlesian, even if he doesn't see himself as such). Orlais is known for having lots of Grey Wardens and maybe they are tools of the Empress, you never know. And they kept stressing on Orlesian reinforcements. So I wouldn't say it's irrational for Loghain to suspect something from them. Especially since Grey wArdens have a nasty past in Ferelden.

#128
Guest_anaea123_*

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All in all, I believe that Loghain and Howe planned everything that led up to Ostagar. It wasn't Howe acting alone, Loghain knew what he wanted to do, and he set out to accomplish it. Whether he wanted the throne or not, he took it, forcing the civil war. This says more about what he intended to happen that much of anything else. I don't know about anyone else, but the first time I played through, walking through Ostagar, exploring the camp, I wondered why the tower was shut off. The guard's story, and statement about not seeing anything like that had me scratching my head, and then the "Glory for us all" comment by Loghain really had me knowing what was coming, sort of. I did not expect the darkspawn at Ishal, I expected to be "detained" by Loghain/Howe's men.

I thought this as well, but when you enter the tower the guards there there (presumably Loghain's, since the Tower has been under his control the whole time) assist you in removing the Darkspawn threat. If the plan was to simply ensure the beacon was never lit, I don't understand why they wouldn't just save their skins and fall back to the larger Loghain force, letting the Darkspawn keep the Tower. It would have made for a more convincing story of why the beacon couldn't be lit.

I want to trust the premeditated storyline, but that seems like a glaring inconsistency to me.

edit: for quick post spacing weirdness

Modifié par anaea123, 07 décembre 2009 - 03:46 .


#129
Arijharn

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Both Riordan and Duncan, their Grey warden followers came from Orlais, at the behest of Cailain. So no, Loghain didn't stop them from coming.  


Yes and no. Riordan came originally as part of the force from Orlais at the behest of Cailain, but was part of their forces that was diverted at the border (while I understand the need for border security, especially with Orlais, I wonder how better things could of worked out if there were less guards). Af I recall correctely, their refusal of entry into sovereign territory perplexed them after it was their king himself who invited them and is why Riordan had to sneak in before he was captured. The Grey Wardens therefore didn't push regardless into the Ferelden because:
A) There must be a range limit in detecting the Archdemon's thoughts
B) There (actual) rebellion against the king of Ferelden in the past must of been fresh in their minds, and they weren't totally sure yet if this was just a larger-than-usual Darkspawn raid, or if it was indeed a Blight. Therefore they sent Riordan to make sure one way or another.
The only draw to any of this theory is that there is no reference of time for the player other than through miscellaneous dialogue. If Riordan was sent and captured, how long in time did this take place and why did the Grey Wardens in Orlais not send others or push into Ferelden anyway?

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. Regardless though, personally I'm of the mind that the broad strokes of Loghain's plan was laid out beforehand to deal with what Loghain believed was a sort of inevitable re-invasion from Orlais. For most of the game remember that no one other than yourself and Alistair knew it was a Blight (remember; A Blight is termed a blight rather than a Darkspawn raid because it is led by a Dragon) although I think after the origin stories and their connection to the main storyline it became slightly confusing with characters actually calling it a Blight because as I said, they didn't actually believe a Dragon was involved.

Why? Because presumably no one other than your party has seen it. Alistair and the PC have seen it in their dreams and this is probably enough for Eamon and Teagann to take at word value and you of course eventually see it (and your party which for them is probably much more important) during the events of the Dwarven story arc.

I think Loghain was, as other people have previously mentioned, increasingly paranoid (I thought this was exemplified in Loghain's reaction in the cut-scene in which he just nods in response to Howe's speech of 'taking care of things' , including the recruitment of the Antiva crows). I think Howe was in large part feeding Loghain's paranoia ( I can totally see Howe requesting an audience with Loghain in the past to air 'some concerns') largely so he could advance within the nobility. The main problem being really is that Howe wanted things for himself, it could be very much possible through his son/daughter's marriage with other noble houses (in fact, during the Human Noble origin; Delilah (his daughter) is mentioned in having an infatuation with your male PC, your dialog responses can range from '****** off' or words to that effect to sure. As I understand it, if your PC is female, he has a son).

As an aside, I was disappointed that in the human noble origin if you say to Howe the nice 'good luck' goodbye Howe has what seems to have something akin to a crisis of conscious and you can't actually use that against him later on.

As to why people here have mentioned why the other nobles never acted against him I think the answer is quite obvious. Arl Rendon Howe is a man with the ear of the the regent and whose nobility is rising meteroically. It would be foolish to speak out against such a man. These people if anything, have a lot more to loose than most.

#130
Arijharn

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anaea123 wrote...


All in all, I believe that Loghain and Howe planned everything that led up to Ostagar. It wasn't Howe acting alone, Loghain knew what he wanted to do, and he set out to accomplish it. Whether he wanted the throne or not, he took it, forcing the civil war. This says more about what he intended to happen that much of anything else. I don't know about anyone else, but the first time I played through, walking through Ostagar, exploring the camp, I wondered why the tower was shut off. The guard's story, and statement about not seeing anything like that had me scratching my head, and then the "Glory for us all" comment by Loghain really had me knowing what was coming, sort of. I did not expect the darkspawn at Ishal, I expected to be "detained" by Loghain/Howe's men.

I thought this as well, but when you enter the tower the guards there there (presumably Loghain's, since the Tower has been under his control the whole time) assist you in removing the Darkspawn threat. If the plan was to simply ensure the beacon was never lit, I don't understand why they wouldn't just save their skins and fall back to the larger Loghain force, letting the Darkspawn keep the Tower. It would have made for a more convincing story of why the beacon couldn't be lit.

I want to trust the premeditated storyline, but that seems like a glaring inconsistency to me.

edit: for quick post spacing weirdness


Panic. That and they're supposed to be fighting the Darkspawn anyway. Also, the darkspawn had cut off their lines of retreat until you arrive.

#131
Spetulhu

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anaea123 wrote...

All in all, I believe that Loghain and Howe planned everything that led up to Ostagar. I did not expect the darkspawn at Ishal, I expected to be "detained" by Loghain/Howe's men.

I thought this as well, but when you enter the tower the guards there (presumably Loghain's, since the Tower has been under his control the whole time) assist you in removing the Darkspawn threat. If the plan was to simply ensure the beacon was never lit, I don't understand why they wouldn't just save their skins and fall back to the larger Loghain force, letting the Darkspawn keep the Tower. It would have made for a more convincing story of why the beacon couldn't be lit.


It would have made for a convincing story indeed, but Loghain couldn't really count on the darkspawn to attack the tower. I'm pretty sure he always intended to wait for the beacon so he'd know the wardens are stuck, then withdraw his forces. The commander at the tower probably had orders to withdraw once ready, and might also have received some instructions on the wardens once Cailan ordered you to the tower. A key part of a good conspiracy is to not tell everyone about it, after all... Not even Ser Cauthrien was informed about the retreat before Loghain gave the order!

In short, the beacon was to be lit. Loghain just wasn't going to come in and rescue the anvil forces.

#132
robertthebard

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anaea123 wrote...


All in all, I believe that Loghain and Howe planned everything that led up to Ostagar. It wasn't Howe acting alone, Loghain knew what he wanted to do, and he set out to accomplish it. Whether he wanted the throne or not, he took it, forcing the civil war. This says more about what he intended to happen that much of anything else. I don't know about anyone else, but the first time I played through, walking through Ostagar, exploring the camp, I wondered why the tower was shut off. The guard's story, and statement about not seeing anything like that had me scratching my head, and then the "Glory for us all" comment by Loghain really had me knowing what was coming, sort of. I did not expect the darkspawn at Ishal, I expected to be "detained" by Loghain/Howe's men.

I thought this as well, but when you enter the tower the guards there there (presumably Loghain's, since the Tower has been under his control the whole time) assist you in removing the Darkspawn threat. If the plan was to simply ensure the beacon was never lit, I don't understand why they wouldn't just save their skins and fall back to the larger Loghain force, letting the Darkspawn keep the Tower. It would have made for a more convincing story of why the beacon couldn't be lit.

I want to trust the premeditated storyline, but that seems like a glaring inconsistency to me.

edit: for quick post spacing weirdness

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.  Regardless of whether Loghain intended to charge or not at the beacon, the darkspawn attacking the tower threw a monkey wrench into whatever was planned there.  At this point, it's survival, and of course they are going to throw their lot in with the Wardens, since fighting darkspawn is the Warden's forte.

If I wanted to put on my Loghainism hat, I'd say that Loghain was somehow in league with the darkspawn.  As it stands, however, I believe that attacking from the tower was just part of the Archdemon's plan, and it just happened to be fortified.  The incidents at the top of the tower, after the beacon is lit, could very well indicate the second wave of that part of the attack.  This is one area where we may never know what really happened.  Other than face value evidence, any way.

#133
Galad22

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am positive I heard that somewhere, but I can't remember. Maybe it was the dwarf noble origin. Or Loghain. Will have to check again.

But let's assume you are right, it doesn't change anything. The 2 senior Grey Wardens are Orlesians (Duncan can be seen as an Orlesian, even if he doesn't see himself as such). Orlais is known for having lots of Grey Wardens and maybe they are tools of the Empress, you never know. And they kept stressing on Orlesian reinforcements. So I wouldn't say it's irrational for Loghain to suspect something from them. Especially since Grey wArdens have a nasty past in Ferelden.


I give you Duncan, though that really isn't true either. His father was from tevinter and mother from anderfels.

But Riordan is native Fereldan born in highever, he says so if you had Alistair with you when you rescue him. He has spend time in Orlesia, even lived there perhaps but that doesn't make him Orlesian.

So I think it is irrational to suspect those two since they really aren't Orlesians at all.