193 réponses à ce sujet

[Aargh12]

How was Broken Steel or Holmes' ending different from Extended cut DLC? It is the same. You wrote that they made the choice to change the ending. Yes, they did, but the reason was simple - fanbase. It is similar to what Bioware's doing now - they could've chosen not to release that DLC. But they didn't.

[shinyelf]

slyguy200 wrote...

I disagree with almost all of the points made.

By who? Me or someone else? 
Plead be clear, as I am interested in hearing why, and perhaps to gain a higher understanding of the conflict

[shinyelf]

Aargh12 wrote...

How was Broken Steel or Holmes' ending different from Extended cut DLC? It is the same. You wrote that they made the choice to change the ending. Yes, they did, but the reason was simple - fanbase. It is similar to what Bioware's doing now - they could've chosen not to release that DLC. But they didn't.

Yes but if they had made an entirely new ending (because the fanbase kept demanding it and gave them an ultimatum)
it would not hav e been their choice, this way they get to keep their vision while still giving the fans something.

[-Spartan]

Icinix wrote...

I have no problem with artistic integrity being used, I take issue with it being used here.

This is not the time or place for games to be using the artistic integrity defence. One day gaming will need to use it for something that it will really be warranted, and rather than it being a serious defence and argument for integrity - the defence will be laughed off because it was used for the ending of Mass Effect 3.

Artistic Integrity is a good powerful argument - the ending of Mass Effect 3 was a poor, weak (in both presentation and narrative coherence) and ultimately hollow ending. Using the Artistic Integrity defence to protect it weakens the defence for any future use it may be used for in games - its even worse because it almost gives leave for future money grabbing games and rushed deadlines to use it for whatever rubbish they put out.

Defend the ending on its merits if you so wish, defend it on what the company wanted to do, but don't defend it as Artistic Integrity. It is not art, and nor does it have integrity.

You are clearly someone who can see the bigger picture here and the implications in play. Sadly very few can to our collective detriment. 

Modifié par -Spartan, 18 avril 2012 - 09:59 .

[deatharmonic]

shinyelf wrote...

@deatharmonic
If you lack the proper ems you get squashed, how do you et more ems? Play the story, make choices, in that way all our choices meant something.
As for the thing about every decision shaping our experience I believe that is just as much about feeling the game, but alson about seing some outcomes throughout the game itself.

And by the way way, I never wants the ending to reflect every choice, just te ones relevant to that specific section

I suspect you may have misunderstood, if that's the case allow me to clarify. The point i was making was that several claims were made and they failed to fulfil them, not only according to a portion of fans but also the BBB - showing a lack of integrity and Mr. Gambles comments further confounded things by basically saying we didn't realise players wanted their choices to be reflected in the endings - adding to aforementioned lack of integrity. Now, upon taking into consideration the advertisement claims, do you not find it slightly ironic? So, when Bioware put out the artistic integrity argument, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because up to that point they haven't shown an awful lot of integrity.

As for the EMS, well, that is another issue altogether right? I remember devs saying categorically you do not have to play multiplayer in order to achieve full EMS. Well, i don't know if you've seen some of the threads up but its been proven and stated by Holmes that it is impossible to achieve full EMS in single player, which is sadly ironic as again this debacle shows a lack of integrity. 

Thus, I find it hard to swallow when Bioware want to talk about their integrity. 

Modifié par deatharmonic, 18 avril 2012 - 10:06 .

[Icinix]

shinyelf wrote...

@Icinix
We only hollow out the argument by saying that it does not apply. We use the artistic integrity when someone tries to force or coerce us into doing something that we would not otherwise do, but since you will never argue in a case without opposition there will always be someone to claim that you are not defending art.
And if it was an argument only to be used when truly needed one may always claim that a situation in which the need I greater will be just around the corner.

No thats not what I'm saying.

I'm saying the ending of ME3 isn't worthy of artistic defence.

I have no issue with the use of artistic integrity as a defence, using it for the elevators and overheating weapons in ME1 would have been more appropriate then the ME3 ending. The ending goes against the rest of the series and its established art. Using it here is akin to the Mona Lisa being finished off with a curly moustache and when people question it "ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!!" used as to defend it.

The ending is a narrative and technical mess, I have no issue with people defending the ending if they so see fit, just not with artistic integrity.

[MichaelSD]

While I disagree with the "artistic integrity", because ME3 is a commercial product, even if I would accept that is is a work of art, it wouldn't stand up the "artistic integrity" defence. Why, because the current ending is not artistic. As written in many other threads, it is not a professional ending (and no not because the hero dies, or because there is no happy ending), neither story wise, nor dramatically, nor emotionally.
I respect art, even when I do not like it, but in ME3's endings, I do not see the effort to make it good. "Oh we need a good ending, let's colour them differently and change some seconds"
It is if Michelangelo would have made David without head, claiming artistic integrity.

Modifié par MichaelSD, 18 avril 2012 - 10:14 .

[Repearized Miranda]

poerksen wrote...

If they had artistic integrity, then they would have stuck with the original ending, instead of the one we have now. It is repugnant.

I am not demanding anything, simply telling that they have screwed up and I hope they will fix it. 

Also given the fact that they have openly lied in their advertising etc. I think they should at least listen to their fanbase.

Blame that on the leak, but that must have really been the last straw since this is what we got.

[Saodade]

I believe I can flyyyyyy...sorry I couldn't resist
Well consider this is my artistic expression lol

[lillitheris]

You're confusing artistic integrity and intellectual property. Because of the latter, BioWare can indeed do whatever they like.

Take Jackson ******. His work is wildly divisive. Some think his art is the greatest thing in the world, some think it's terrible, pretentious crap. Genuine difference of opinion. People can argue that he should change his style, but it's his prerogative to not do so. That's artistic integrity.

But if a gallerist sneaks to ******'s workspace, steals a half-finished painting, takes it home to spill a pint of paint on it, and then puts it on sale…artistic integrity doesn't apply when people complain about it.

[ShadowHawk141]

I respect your opinion OP but personaly I think computer games aren't art, they can be artfully made but to me it's just a form of entertainment at the end of a long day's work nothing more.
Although I like a nice conversation about the lore of ME it doesn't carry any philosphical or artistic values for me.

If you want to use artistic integrity in the game industry then do it well, Bioware is just using the frase to rule out any critisism made on the ending so they won't have to invest more into it then they want.
Imho the frase "artistic integrity" by Bioware has been used cheaply and very convenient.

[Felene]

I believes in artistic integrity as well, but something is definitely wrong when I get a vege steak while I ordered a Sirloin steak and the waiter refuse to change it when I point put he serve me the wrong dish.

That is not artistic integrity folks!

[sillyrobot]

I believe in artistic integrity too.  Anyone has the  right to refuse to sell me something no matter how much I want it.
Artistic integrity is the artist defying paying patrons' requests to change his expression in order to keep true to the original vision for the work.

It can be laudable for “pure” artists unconcerned with commercial success or seeking peer recognition, acclaim from the critical community, or trying to make a larger social statement   Pride can often be confused with aretistic integrity.  The artist should always ask himself if the change truly moves the work away from his original vision or does it move it closer to it?

I am uncomfortable with a public for-profit commercial house to use that argument since the artist is placing his needs in front of the needs of the owners.

Such an artist should use arguments regarding cost for change, actual size of audience demanding change, and/or inability to develop an expression that can meet the varied complaints and visions.  These arguments speak to managing the owners interests.  Artistic integrity speaks to managing the artist's interest.

If I were an investor in EA I would be uncomfortable with part of my investment publicly placing its interests ahead of my own.  Now there is a precedent that shouldn't happen.

Modifié par sillyrobot, 18 avril 2012 - 10:20 .

[thunderhawk862002]

shinyelf wrote...

Aargh12 wrote...

How was Broken Steel or Holmes' ending different from Extended cut DLC? It is the same. You wrote that they made the choice to change the ending. Yes, they did, but the reason was simple - fanbase. It is similar to what Bioware's doing now - they could've chosen not to release that DLC. But they didn't.

Yes but if they had made an entirely new ending (because the fanbase kept demanding it and gave them an ultimatum)
it would not hav e been their choice, this way they get to keep their vision while still giving the fans something.

Well I'm sure the writers had more ideas for the universe.  What's wrong with adding new endings to the old ones?  Considering a Reapers win ending was floated around by the developers.

[megabug7]

Bioware lost all integrity with for me personally when so-called 'business decisions' got in the way of releasing a quality product.

You can't shout 'Artistic Integrity' when the game itself is broken on so many levels (and still is).
The ending is not artistic - it's a mess!

For me it is the Turner Prize of Art - nonsensical enough to provoke a reaction but did nothing for me in the end.

[translationninja]

integrity is important you say, hmmm?

[jakal66]

Let me say this clearly, it's a story being told,being written, the fact that you are playing it doesn't change the FACT that it is STILL a STORY being told.
The give you some choices,yes but always in the arc of the story they wrote.So if this is a story and they are the creators,in the end they can write whatever FRIGGIN ending they want, it's theirs not yours, even if youn paid 3 gazillion dollars it's their intellectual property.

So you might like it,you might hate it but you cannot demand them to give you the ending you want.Well you can as many of you have done but what they can do is tell you polittely that the WON'T change it because it's their story and they are unhappy you didn't see it the way they did..

...even if they did write a turd ending it's their turd and they can do with it what they will.Artistic integrity doesnt mean it has to be great art or a great story it means that if you created something in the lines of art, that being a book, a film, a scultpture, a painting and /or a video game, you as the creator can choose what and how  to add, subtract and present that work.
So please, even if it's crappy art it's still art and it's still bound to the writers decision to illustrate an ending...whether you like it or not.

[jakal66]

slyguy200 wrote...

Artistic integrity is a load of garbage. It is, and always has been, an excuse for them to not fix the ending which is clearly complete trash.

And this is contructive criticism, this is you represteing everyone who played the game,and god let them not disagree with you!!!They got be dumb.Please it's posts like this that make the retakers look like little spoiled brats whining over spilt milk.

[Peregrin25]

there was no artistic integrity. that's the problem. The ending was written by Hudson and Walters, the rest of the team was not involved there was no peer review either. It was more an individual work so they are only defending their work, not BioWare as a whole. Artistic Integrity does not exist. I don't necessarily blame BioWare either. But at the same time they did allow EA to force them into a deadline. There are lines that were crossed even if you are under contract. You have to make things coexist and EA and BioWare are not coexisting. EA is stepping on their toes and it allows for BioWare to make mistakes.

But then again both sides are to blame. takes 2 to tango!

Modifié par Peregrin25, 18 avril 2012 - 10:59 .

[Swordfishtrombone]

translationninja wrote...

integrity is important you say, hmmm?

I've seen this posted before, and I've asked for the source before - is this REALLY a promotional picture made by EA/Bioware, or a fan-made product intended to smear EA/Bioware? Where is this from? Where does it originally appear?

The sad thing is that I wouldn't put this beyond EA, given their history, but as a proper skeptic, I would like to get some evidence to avoid attributing to them something that they didn't do.

[PieGod3000]

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle didn't use that lame excuse. When fans said they didn't like Holmes dying, he just went right on ahead and changed it. Also, EA, there is a famous saying, the customer is always right.

[dmonorato]

I also believe in artistic integrity, but there has to be actual art involved, not the crap that was given to us. Also I can agree that the company making the game has final choice on how to end their game, but if they promise one thing and give you another they are gonna lose those fans that enable them to make games in the first place.

[sharkboy421]

Swordfishtrombone wrote...

translationninja wrote...

integrity is important you say, hmmm?

I've seen this posted before, and I've asked for the source before - is this REALLY a promotional picture made by EA/Bioware, or a fan-made product intended to smear EA/Bioware? Where is this from? Where does it originally appear?

The sad thing is that I wouldn't put this beyond EA, given their history, but as a proper skeptic, I would like to get some evidence to avoid attributing to them something that they didn't do.

http://www.forbes.co...o-game-history/
It is very, very real.