193 réponses à ce sujet

[shinyelf]

@Gleym

Since you feel justified in calling me naive I will allow myself to say that you are being purposefully obtuse.
I don't contest that the ending could have been better, what I contest is that an author should not be forced to change his/her work.
And no Dickens never changed just to please the crowd, he change it because he acknowledged that he ought to do better. He did not say "this is my work and I refuse to change it" had he said that I would no longer respect him, but he didn't so that is a moot point.

[Grey34]

they can't seem to defend the ending so the only thing they can full back with is the whole AI stuff

[OlympusMons423]

Shinyelf... your point is made respectfully...thanks for that.

I am an artist, or I use to be more of one I guess. I did the whole art school thing, worked as a freelance illustrator, etc. I now do graphics. But I do know the language, or thought process. I do think the whole artistic integrity smell more of covering their asses for some very unfortunate choices. I would not argue about art being in this game almost at every turn. Its the fact that is done so well that the ending sticks out like such a sore thumb.

I do shake my head on some of the attacks. I understand the anger and frustration too though. Standing back from it I can see a number of ways to still get out of it creatively. For one there is the very last format they leave us with, with the old man promising to tell more of the story.... with that they could just give us a different version of the ending. Shepard is a legend by this time. As a writer just get your head around it and come up with something....Yeah its a slim hope. I wish they would do it because I hate to see a basically perfect game get stuck with basically politics.

In art school you would put things up. Other in the class would tell yo what they thought of your artistic idea. If it worked you had to sometimes defend it. You had to have reasons. You could not retreat or circle the wagons and call it just your artistic vision. When it works well here, that is what is happening. This ending is up on the board and we are stating what we think. A good artist will take that in. Art is not stubborn or flighty.

In the past artistic vision Tali and Garrus were never intended to be love interests. The fans wanted it and this company did what its said it does, and prides itself on doing....they listened and even changed that vision to fit in what many fans thought was missing. As a Tali romancer...my GOD talk about a win for the game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Artistic integrity is not a copout. It is a very real thing totally independent from the quality of the art in question.

The ending may suck, the game may suck... but it's THEIR ending..THEIR story..and no one - NO ONE - has any right to demand any change. Even if it is the worst, crappiest, piece of s*** you ever ran across.

You can want change. You can express your desire for it. But that's it.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 19 avril 2012 - 01:11 .

[lillitheris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Artistic integrity is not a copout. It is a very real thing totally independent from the quality of the art in question.

The ending may suck, the game may suck... but it's THEIR ending..THEIR story..and no one - NO ONE - has any right to demand any change. Even if it is the worst, crappiest, piece of s*** you ever ran across.

This is only a valid reason if you truly believe that this was the vision that the entire development team is happy with, and if they'd been given another 6 months and the budget to work with it, this is what we would have gotten.

That's obviously not the case. The defense is invalid. All you're left with is that it's their property and they are, in fact, able to do whatever they please with it.

I never got the ‘counterargument’ that we're only allowed to demand changes, not entitled to receive them. Isn't that what we're doing? It's not like I have a magic wand that will make whatever I wish happen when I type on a forum

[Il Divo]

lillitheris wrote...

I never got the ‘counterargument’ that we're only allowed to demand changes, not entitled to receive them. Isn't that what we're doing? It's not like I have a magic wand that will make whatever I wish happen when I type on a forum

I think it's more about how we go about expressing that desire. Saying "Bioware, we hate the endings, mind giving the series the send off it deserves?" sends a very different vibe than "Bioware, you better change the ending, because I say so!".

[kalle90]

Yes, I like that developers make games as they want and don't listen to every rambling fans here and there provide. It would be boring if games were exactly what I expected. Saying that games should be made for the fans is wrong and is exactly the reason why games are being mainstreamed now, "the bigger crowd the happier crowd".

But like said I believe in this case it's just a meaningless word. They changed the game multiple times already, made up the story as they went, marketed it with 16 endings, now they're scared to come up with straight answers and stand behind their product etc. No integrity there, just rushed decisions and misguiding of gamers. And also the ending is so messed up they obviously ran out of money/time and then just threw something made with gum and tape at us. Saying that they planned for Normandy to fly and crash out there with teleporting squaddies is just wrong, I could expect it from D-grade indie company that has no testing or supervision.

Modifié par kalle90, 19 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[Soaringeagle78]

I know I'm going to sound like a troll, but I believe in artistic integrity also, but considering the fact that the endings are such utter garbage, I don't think it really applies. Let's say it does. Then Bioware is specifically saying "Go f*** yourself" to a significant portion of the fanbase. Also, I have not seen a legitimate reason yet why the endings are actually good other than 'imo'. Tell me why you think it's good or else you're just an internet contrarion... imo.

[DaJe]

I believe in artistic integrity but what BW has done is violate their own integrity and then claim nobody has the right to criticize their new artistic integrity. It comes across as an insult to fans and customers in general, including pointing fingers and laughing maniacally.

[-Spartan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Artistic integrity is not a copout. It is a very real thing totally independent from the quality of the art in question.

The ending may suck, the game may suck... but it's THEIR ending..THEIR story..and no one - NO ONE - has any right to demand any change. Even if it is the worst, crappiest, piece of s*** you ever ran across.

You can want change. You can express your desire for it. But that's it.

Putting aside historical context and general practices –etc… Even if I were to consider your position legitimately valid, in nearly every other industry the customer can demand and get money back or products changed when the product they were sold does not jive with what they thought they were buying but sadly that basic right does not hold true for this industry. 

Modifié par -Spartan, 19 avril 2012 - 02:36 .

[Metalrocks]

there is nothing artistic to have an ending that doesnt make sense and and lying to us and for changing the original ending. only because the ending got leaked doesnt mean everyone looked at it.

[The Anti-Saint]

Comes down to one thing really; money. If they want to keep their artistic integrity, so be it, but they will do so without a lot of peoples money. Who knows, maybe after EA has finished sapping BiowarEA of substance, the ME3 series can be displayed in a museum so we can appreciate their artistic integrity; doesn't art appreciate after its creator becomes perished? Not saying BiowarEA's demise will happen, but if EA keeps taking it in the quad...ah well, you know the rest.

[shinyelf]

@ChookAttack
No, I still see their artistic integrity as intact, after all those are the material available, those provided by the patron (EA) I do however say that their artistic integrity is null an void if they did not fight tooth and nail to get as much as possible. The point is that EA ordered a piece, they then resold sai piece to us, so if you want to complain, complain to EA. I believe(and hope) that Bioware did everything they could to bring us a fantastic game, and that while they may not have every resource they want they have decided to say "this is ours" an for that I respect them.

The fans may request something new, but we should never demand it.

[abaris]

shinyelf wrote...

Since you feel justified in calling me naive I will allow myself to say that you are being purposefully obtuse.
I don't contest that the ending could have been better, what I contest is that an author should not be forced to change his/her work.

Tell that to authors who get their works thrown back by publishers because it wouldn't sell the way they wrote it. Logical mistakes and plot holes are usually the reason for that to happen, along with general bad writing.

I won't discuss the latter, since it's in the eye of the beholder, but if you hope to sell a story, it better be good, and be prepared to change it for any hope to be published.

[Bocks]

So you like being lied to and then being told that it was all in the name of art.

Good for you.

[ShinsFortress]

Because of

shinyelf wrote...
I have grown to respect Bioware and to despise quite a lot of their "fans"

shinyelf wrote...
this is not me whining about whining .

so yes it is.

Regarding the rest of your point, I disagree.  I am more in agreement with "the Joss Whedon perspective" http://social.biowar.../index/11344580 .

[Iluvantir]

Okay...

Art is art. The artist doesn't have to defend it, so BW? Please stop doing so this way. I will say this clearly - Mass Effect (all of it) is ART... BUT, we all know that you, BW, are great artists but many of us are not happy with the end of ME3 BECAUSE WE KNOW YOU CAN DO SO MUCH BETTER.

Most of the complaints stem NOT from "This sucks as it's sad" or whatnot. It stems from something starting and continuing to the end as "the best you can do" ONLY to have the very end of it fall to less than 25% of your potential. For the SAKE of your "artistic integrity" we are asking you - some even demanding - to step back and take stock of this. You can do better. You must do better. Your very status as one of the best game makers I know of is on the line.

Are we being entitled? Maybe, but only because we know YOU can deliver on this. You've done it before, you can do it again. Sure, there was a slight dropping of the ball in DA2, but I for one still enjoyed the game - but then I knew it wasn't a continuation of DA:O, but rather a new story in the same world. ME is unlike DA entirely. You need to keep it consistant. A few mistakes here and there just add colour to the story - there isn't a story on earth that doesn't have mistakes in it somewhere. That's normal and as long as they are not "in your face" then fans will smile and giggle and generally overlook such. What happened at the end of ME3 is such that many cannot do that. You can do better. You need to do better.

I really hope you do.

[ShinsFortress]

I'm old fashioned. It's not art, because I paid for it. I go to a gallery and look at art without buying the art. Once I pay for it, it's an entertainment medium.

[translationninja]

shinyelf wrote...

@ChookAttack
No, I still see their artistic integrity as intact, after all those are the material available, those provided by the patron (EA) I do however say that their artistic integrity is null an void if they did not fight tooth and nail to get as much as possible. The point is that EA ordered a piece, they then resold sai piece to us, so if you want to complain, complain to EA. I believe(and hope) that Bioware did everything they could to bring us a fantastic game, and that while they may not have every resource they want they have decided to say "this is ours" an for that I respect them.

The fans may request something new, but we should never demand it.

So basically the only point that is really important to you is that someone doesn't have to do what someone else wants?

It's okay for Dickens to change his work, but it's not okay for him to change it because someone else told him to but then again you would have lost your respect for him if he hadn't changed his work because he could do better?

Sound like mere "rebelliousness" to me.

Hmmmm I know this is diddlysquat but I'll never change it because you demanded it, but yeah, I really oughta change it because it's squat.

This is basically what I take away from your last three posts.

My conclusion:

You seem to misunderstand the basic tenets of capitalism and free market societies.

[Saodade]

I guess artistic integrity here is meaning mala fide ?

[shinyelf]

Arcian wrote...

Let me put it this way:

0100111001101111001000000111100101101111011101010010000001100001
011100100110010100100000011101110111001001101111011011100110011100101110

Cute, but you don't make much of a point. Can I hear some arguments? And please, binary gives me headaches, use letters next time.

[abaris]

shinyelf wrote...

Cute, but you don't make much of a point. Can I hear some arguments? And please, binary gives me headaches, use letters next time.

Well, you got all kinds of arguments. You only have chosen to respond to the one who put it in binaries.