193 réponses à ce sujet

[thunderhawk862002]

shinyelf wrote...

ItsRed wrote...

shinyelf wrote...

*snip* This is me saying that BW can do whatever they want with their product (neither you nor I own it) *snip*

Aaaaaaaaaand thats where I got angry. The thing is, that we do own it. All of us that have paid the price of the game are now part of Bioware, any future realease, any DLC, even the upkeep of the servers-- Our money.
Bioware have always said that the fans are a part of the game's development and that feedback is always taken into account when making the next game in a series. Thats the whole reason I used to be a Bioware fanboy.

> We own the game just as much as Bioware do. Without us, there is no Bioware. Without us, there is no Mass          Effect, no Dragon Age and no The Old Republic. Always remember that.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I do so dislike that.
Mass effect is the intellectual property of Bioware and EA, in they end they have the final say. Yes Bioware is entirely dependent on us, but if we want to play their games we depend on them. And a I stated earlier I am all for input to Bioware, but we should do it in a respectful manner. And if we  decide I demand stuff they may very well call us out on it, and since I for one does not intend to stop buying their products I don't want to be put in that situation

It's true that we don't have the right to force BioWare to change the product.  We do have the right to demand them to own up to their interview statements, for at least anything that was said after the game had gone gold.  If they had integrity they would do that.  Although they should clarify anything that was said after the endings were set in stone.

[ItsRed]

thunderhawk862002 wrote...

It's true that we don't have the right to force BioWare to change the product.  We do have the right to demand them to own up to their interview statements, for at least anything that was said after the game had gone gold.  If they had integrity they would do that.  Although they should clarify anything that was said after the endings were set in stone.

I wouldn't say we have the right to 'force' Bioware into changing the product. I wouldn't even say we have the right to 'demand' anything from them. The whole RetakeMassEffect movement idea that is going around isn't demanding at all, because we aren't in the seat of power right now, as we've already bought the game. I'd say we're begging, as the loyal consumer, we're begging them to change that which we all hate. The most annoying thing is that they can hear us, yet they do not listen. Sorry to plug my own thread but it is about the extended cut so its kinda relevant to our conversation --> social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11486867

[-Spartan]

shinyelf wrote...

@ChookAttack
No, I still see their artistic integrity as intact, after all those are the material available, those provided by the patron (EA) I do however say that their artistic integrity is null an void if they did not fight tooth and nail to get as much as possible. The point is that EA ordered a piece, they then resold sai piece to us, so if you want to complain, complain to EA. I believe(and hope) that Bioware did everything they could to bring us a fantastic game, and that while they may not have every resource they want they have decided to say "this is ours" an for that I respect them.

The fans may request something new, but we should never demand it.

Ummm....  EA=BW. The rest - never mind... 

[M920CAIN]

shinyelf wrote...

I'm sorry if someone made a post like this earlier, and if that is the case please bear with me.

Throughout the last month I have grown to respect Bioware and to despise quite a lot of their "fans"(no offence meant). When we first got the entire artistic integrity speech I thought: "what the f*** they have got to be ****tin me", but after having thought about it a while (and read some quite aggressive attacks on BW) I decided that it was nice to finally see someone stick to their guns. 

I do not think that we as a fanbase can demand that BW change the ending if it fits in with their vision (I don't want to hear about Sherlock Holmes or broken steel, as both did it because "they" chose to). I do however find the ending pretty disappointing, and wish that BW would live up to their full potential and give us a kickass ending, but still an ending they chose, not us.

P.S. this is not me whining about whining . This is me saying that BW can do whatever they want with their product (neither you nor I own it) but that I think they could do better, and that they should strive to do so (without compromising their vision) by their own choice.

Bioware & OP can polish gizzard. Artistic integrity my unshaved bottox.

[ShadowHawk141]

Just found this on artistic integrity, I don't know if it's been posted before, I just had a good laugh

[Banelash]

If you sell a product, you do not have the right to say artistic integrity. You are mass selling your product, which you claim will do this, give you this, but in the end doesn't deliver.

Unless you are creating a piece of art, hanging it out, and hoping someone will buy it, only then can you claim artistic integrity. Because you are not mass producing it to sell, you made the art for yourself, to invoke emotion from people who see it, hopefully understanding it and eventually when you do intend to sell it, a buyer who loves it, will buy it for what it is.

You don't see people going to auctions and gallery saying, I would buy this if you can get the artist to change this this this. Comissioned art is different, comissioned art follows the direction of the payer, and the vision of the artist.

[TK EL_]

OP you do know that they have all but publicly admitted that the ending was rushed and sub par right? From the reaction of the devs that people have spoken to, to all the 'lack of resources' answers given at PAX, to the supposed 'fake' post by a dev a while ago on penny arcade. So you are essentially defending a lie and what was a cheap attempt at saving face. Just drop it and move on

[Lotion Soronarr]

Banelash wrote...

If you sell a product, you do not have the right to say artistic integrity.

Yes you do.
It changes nothing. Your financial sucess may be influenced by that, but artistic integrity remains. You can shoose to change something or not. You can choose to write the story you want or the story you think most poeple will want.

***

We do not own the game just as much as Bioware does. Saying that is the epitome of entiltement.

Also, only a fool belives everything marketing said. Seriously, if any of you actually believed anything, even after all these years knowing the gaming industry, you got only yourselves to blame.
No game ends up exactly as the inital design document/vision described. Not a single one. They always change based on circumstances and new ideas.
Any promise from the devs that the game will have x and y is ALWAYS to be taken with a fistfull of salt. Because X or Y may end up being cut or changed.

[Benny8484]

I might have believed their argument if they didn't change their "artistic view" in ME2 & ME3 regarding shepards sexual preferences/scenes as a result of pressure from the media.  In ME1, you had the freedom to do as you desired.  The romance scenes were somewhat explicit.  In ME2 & ME3, were lucky to see anyone with a shirt off & you have like 2-3 romance options.

[Bigdoser]

I think customers have a right to complain about a product but its up to bioware if they want to change the product according to what the customers are complaining about. Well if bioware ignores the complaints about the endings they are going to lose a lot of future sales hence why we are getting the EC. Bioware knows how word of mouth can effect sales of a game.

In my opinion lets not talk about artistic integrity if bioware had any actual integrity they should of not said those dreaded marketing quotes I won't pull up the list of quotes since people already know. Oh and lets not forget that news letter. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 20 avril 2012 - 07:05 .

[shinyelf]

TK EL wrote...

OP you do know that they have all but publicly admitted that the ending was rushed and sub par right? From the reaction of the devs that people have spoken to, to all the 'lack of resources' answers given at PAX, to the supposed 'fake' post by a dev a while ago on penny arcade. So you are essentially defending a lie and what was a cheap attempt at saving face. Just drop it and move on

I don't actually think I am able to move on. For me this had become a discussion about artistic integrity for the entire industry, and if we want I be able to tell some d-bag congressman that our games are pieces of art we have to stand by those words even when it hurst us.

[Gleym]

Even when the game in question ISN'T art? I mean, you realize you CAN label games things OTHER than art. I mean, Tetris isn't art. It's Tetris. Shadow of the Colossus? That's art. Planescape: Torment? That's art. It's like with food and the term 'fine cuisine'. MacDonald's is not fine cuisine. Same with movies. Schindler's List? Art. Citizen Kane? Art. Uwe Boll's Blood Rayne? F*ck no. Mass Effect 3 is not art.

Modifié par Gleym, 20 avril 2012 - 07:13 .

[shinyelf]

ChookAttack wrote...

Wait...so now artistic integrity has changed from Bioware not deviating from their vision to only deviating from their vision in circumstances that YOU approve of?  I'm sure glad you haven't used the word "entitled" because that would just be ironic.

Getting into semantics over whether we are demanding changes or requesting changes, to me, merely shows how little substance your argument has.

I don't think it is just circumstances I approve of, it is how the world works. If you want to paint a picture that is five meter wide, but can only afford a two meter canvas you make do. And if in the end the piece is exactly what you wanted it to be, then who are we to disagree? 


As for arguing semantics, i think that we have to differentiate between demands and requests. A demand implies that we are in the right, but atually we are not. A requst is a suggestion, and I think that artists should always be willing to improve based on suggestions(if they think it is the right thing to do of course)

[shinyelf]

Gleym wrote...

Even when the game in question ISN'T art? I mean, you realize you CAN label games things OTHER than art. I mean, Tetris isn't art. It's Tetris. Shadow of the Colossus? That's art. Planescape: Torment? That's art. It's like with food and the term 'fine cuisine'. MacDonald's is not fine cuisine. Same with movies. Schindler's List? Art. Citizen Kane? Art. Uwe Boll's Blood Rayne? F*ck no. Mass Effect 3 is not art.

How do you differentiate? 
I think that is the point of it. Mass effect had many moments where I felt it was art, and I am willing to say that those moments allow it to qualify as art.

[Gleym]

Well, for one thing when the author feels the need to defend his work from criticism by claiming it's art, that tends to be an indicator for 'not art'. Kinda like how Uwe Boll keeps accusing his critics of being basement-dwelling losers without a life and insults them, whilst praising his own 'artistic vision' before challenging his critics to a boxing match and beating them up, declaring that, since he, a trained boxer, won, therefore he is right and his movies are awesome. Bioware's acting like Uwe Boll right now. If it WERE art, they wouldn't need to claim it was art to justify the way it is.

Modifié par Gleym, 20 avril 2012 - 07:22 .

[shinyelf]

Gleym wrote...

Well, for one thing when the author feels the need to defend his work from criticism by claiming it's art, that tends to be an indicator for 'not art'. Kinda like how Uwe Boll keeps accusing his critics of being basement-dwelling losers without a life and insults them, whilst praising his own 'artistic vision' before challenging his critics to a boxing match and beating them up, declaring that, since he, a trained boxer, won, therefore he is right and his movies are awesome. Bioware's acting like Uwe Boll right now. If it WERE art, they wouldn't need to claim it was art to justify the way it is.

But why not? Everyone seems dead set on tearing the game to pieces, but it still had plenty of beautiful moments. 
Also I dont thinke the Uwe Boll comparison is fair, after all Bioware said hat they felt the game is in line with their artistic vision, but instead o telling us to go away they make the extended cut to show/explain why they think the ending fits.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

I believe I can fly
I beieve I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
i believe I can fly

[Gleym]

And how, then, just out of curiosity, is this different than, say, the Director's Commentary on an Uwe Boll movie where he spends most of the commentary explaining why his artistic vision is brilliant and slamming all of the reviews and critiques? Isn't it exactly what Bioware's doing now? Explaining 'why we are right and you are wrong'?

[Farbautisonn]

makalathbonagin wrote...

why im always reading it as autistic integrity? OO

-I did lol.

[Farbautisonn]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

I believe I can fly
I beieve I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
i believe I can fly

-This isnt helping your e-toughguy image. Come on man. Put some effort into it. Make snide, sarcastic remarks dripping with bitter irony.

Singing songs from a Bugs Bunny flick isnt going to help.

[Dude_in_the_Room]

Farbautisonn wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

I believe I can fly
I beieve I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
i believe I can fly

-This isnt helping your e-toughguy image. Come on man. Put some effort into it. Make snide, sarcastic remarks dripping with bitter irony.

Singing songs from a Bugs Bunny flick isnt going to help.

COME AT ME!!!!

[Farbautisonn]

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

Dude_in_the_Room wrote...

I believe I can fly
I beieve I can touch the sky
I think about it every night and day
Spread my wings and fly away
i believe I can fly

-This isnt helping your e-toughguy image. Come on man. Put some effort into it. Make snide, sarcastic remarks dripping with bitter irony.

Singing songs from a Bugs Bunny flick isnt going to help.

COME AT ME!!!!

-Would you like a carrot? 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I believe in maroons
I believe in fly-eater Salarians!
I believe in typhoons
I believe in tempest
I believe in Emperor of Mankind!