193 réponses à ce sujet

[abaris]

Chapity wrote...

Ok, so if bioware doesn't tell you what the intention of a product NOT YET AVAILABLE is, then thats deception? The last ten minutes of the game is an obvious lead in to the next game, and it's no wonder at all why they wouldn't want to tell you or anyone about it.

Obvious?

In your mind. Which is perfectly OK. But no official hints at ME4 and the explicit quote of Shepards journey being at it's end.

Nothing along any official lines, so nothing obvious.

[Elk Cloner]

shinyelf wrote...
This is me saying that BW can do whatever they want with their product (neither you nor I own it) but that I think they could do better, and that they should strive to do so (without compromising their vision) by their own choice.

First thing, BW should have general integrity to have artistic one. And they don't have it since they've ported ME2 to PS3.

Second thing, "artristic integrity" doesn't cover false advertising.

[Reorte]

You create something that people invest in, you create an emotional link with people, you have a moral responsibility (even if not a legal one) to not kick them in the gut at the end of it. Whether money is involved or not is irrelevent.

Modifié par Reorte, 21 avril 2012 - 09:20 .

[RyuujinZERO]

At this stage I guess I'm slightly more "ok" about Bioware sticking to their "artistic integrity".

Mass Effect 3 has already faded from my mind and been logged in my memories as a "great game with the ****tiest ending in gaming history" and I've moved on to new pastures. They could change the ending at this stage and I might bother go back to have a look to see how they changed it, but to me the damage has already been done and any attempt to fix it would just be too little too late.

Between the ending, Origin and DLC Bioware'd have to do something truly ground breaking before I buy another product.

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 21 avril 2012 - 09:18 .

[ShinsFortress]

Elk Cloner wrote...

shinyelf wrote...
This is me saying that BW can do whatever they want with their product (neither you nor I own it) but that I think they could do better, and that they should strive to do so (without compromising their vision) by their own choice.

First thing, BW should have general integrity to have artistic one. And they don't have it since they've ported ME2 to PS3.

Second thing, "artristic integrity" doesn't cover false advertising.

&

Reorte wrote...

You create something that people invest in, you create an emotional link with people, you have a moral responsibility (even if not a legal one) to not kick them in the gut at the end of it. Whether money is involved or not is irrelevent.

2/2

Modifié par ShinsFortress, 21 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[shinyelf]

Bluko wrote...

 Here's a definition of Integrity:
 
You do not know Bioware. You are not friends with them. Just because you read every news article or follow their every tweet does not make it so. Defending them on some kind of personal basis is simply foolishness. Unless you go to down to their studio and have a beer with them everyday. I mean seriously it's as silly as defending your imaginary friend for something you did.

Complementing any specific Bioware employee is as arrogant as ridiculing them. If you want to praise a creator praise their work. That should be all the gratification they need. Vice versa if you dislike the work then you criticize it for why it is bad. Hopefully they will learn from that. However going after specific individuals on what is essentially a group effort is meaningless, if not also childish in nautre. It's easy to pin all the blame on one or a few persons. Always much harder to accept it is likely the result of many individuals.

Your comparison with the imaginary star wars movie is in accurate, it would be more like GL decidin to add something later, not something he decided upon making before release.

Secondly what I am doing is empathising. I am not defending their artistic direction, I am defending their choice to not change the ending, and commenting on the concept of artistic integrity.

[Babli]

>Mass Effect 3 ending
>Art

lol

Modifié par Babli, 21 avril 2012 - 10:52 .

[Little Princess Peach]

HighFlyingDwarf wrote...

Art loses it's integrity when you have to pay for it. Video games aren't art.

Video games are art multimedia,

[JKA_Nozyspy]

shinyelf wrote...

Your comparison with the imaginary star wars movie is in accurate, it would be more like GL decidin to add something later, not something he decided upon making before release.

Hang on, hasnt George Lucas been doing just that for the last 10 years? He is constantly 'adding' things to the Original Trilogy, which are really unnecessary while doing absolutely nothing to improve the Prequel Trilogy. I would say he is pretty much the master of retcon. 

shinyelf wrote...
Secondly what I am doing is empathising. I am not defending their artistic direction, I am defending their choice to not change the ending, and commenting on the concept of artistic integrity.

A bad choice should not be defended, by doing so Bioware are only digging themselves into a hole with their customers. :/

[Phategod1]

I know people are probably posting that, "since it is a crappy ending that they can't hide behind the Artistic Integrity argument," but what they do not understand is quality does not dictate if something is art or not because quality is subjective. Michael Bay can make all the $4!tty Transformers movies he wants regardless of how bad they are they are still art. To deny the worst variation of art is to deny even the best.

[LOLandStuff]

I too believe in artistic integrity, but only when I'm too lazy to explain what the heck I painted and fully know I messed it up because I didn't feel like putting any effort in my work.

[ShinsFortress]

Babli wrote...

>Mass Effect 3 ending
>Art

lol

Mass Effect 3?  Art?  What I think of Mass Effect 3's ending isn't art.  But it rhymes with art....

[abaris]

ShinsFortress wrote...

Mass Effect 3?  Art?  What I think of Mass Effect 3's ending isn't art.  But it rhymes with art....

Am I wrong to assume that an F is featured prominently in that rhyme?

[PsyrenY]

Isn't this the no-spoiler forum? Why are we discussing the endings?

[wpmayhew]

shinyelf wrote...

I'm sorry if someone made a post like this earlier, and if that is the case please bear with me.

Throughout the last month I have grown to respect Bioware and to despise quite a lot of their "fans"(no offence meant). When we first got the entire artistic integrity speech I thought: "what the f*** they have got to be ****tin me", but after having thought about it a while (and read some quite aggressive attacks on BW) I decided that it was nice to finally see someone stick to their guns. 

I do not think that we as a fanbase can demand that BW change the ending if it fits in with their vision (I don't want to hear about Sherlock Holmes or broken steel, as both did it because "they" chose to). I do however find the ending pretty disappointing, and wish that BW would live up to their full potential and give us a kickass ending, but still an ending they chose, not us.

P.S. this is not me whining about whining . This is me saying that BW can do whatever they want with their product (neither you nor I own it) but that I think they could do better, and that they should strive to do so (without compromising their vision) by their own choice.

Well, what you apparently don't recognize is, that by sticking to their guns they're alienating a huge swathe of their current consumer base.  Unfortunately, video games are not art with a capital A yet, the industry they come from is even more a slave to profits than Hollywood is.  So, more consumers=more "art" (or more games, for us non-bioware employees), and they would be basically putting a bullet straight through both of their own feet if they chose not to give their audience what they want.

Honestly, I think this whole question of "artistic integrity" has been carried too far, and that has happened because the vast majority of people associated with videogames (fans too) have almost no education in any type of art at all.  I know you said you didn't want to hear about sherlock holmes and broken steel, but it goes beyond those two examples.  A work is only deemed "art" if enough people in a civilization agree that it is indeed art, and not an endeavor related solely to religion, business, etc. (basically anything without an ulterior purpose, but that people agree is nonetheless beautiful and informative to the human condition).  

So, TLDR:  art is what people say it is, and bc of that, artists have been and always will be beholden to their audience

[wpmayhew]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Isn't this the no-spoiler forum? Why are we discussing the endings?

You mean THE ending?

[sillyrobot]

Bluko wrote...

<snip>

Complementing any specific Bioware employee is as arrogant as ridiculing them. If you want to praise a creator praise their work. That should be all the gratification they need. Vice versa if you dislike the work then you criticize it for why it is bad. Hopefully they will learn from that. However going after specific individuals on what is essentially a group effort is meaningless, if not also childish in nautre. It's easy to pin all the blame on one or a few persons. Always much harder to accept it is likely the result of many individuals.

There is always a need for responsibility even (and especially) in group effort.  Specific individuals are accountable for delivery.  It is correct to call on  those individuals to account for their decisions and choices should the quality of a work be questioned.  Refusing to take account of those persons negates their purpose and removes a feedback mechanism for maintaining quality.

In the case of a game like ME3, those folk would be the ones with "Lead" in the title whose role corresponds with the section whose quality is suspect and with the person in charge overall.  With respect to the ending, that puts the onus on Max Walters and Casey Hudson.

[ev76]

If you don't like a companies product you have a right to not buy their next product, in some cases companies give you your money back. If in their promotion of a their product they mislead and misinterprate their product to increase sales, you have have a right to warn other potential consumers about it.
That said I like their product and am looking forward to their next product. As far as attacks on their product as long as it is civil I don't see a problem with it, companies want feedback about their product, whether it's good or bad. In a country (United States of America) where companies are now treated as people legally, It doesn't surprise me that companies are now artists!

[duckley]

poerksen wrote...

If they had artistic integrity, then they would have stuck with the original ending, instead of the one we have now. It is repugnant.

I am not demanding anything, simply telling that they have screwed up and I hope they will fix it. 

Also given the fact that they have openly lied in their advertising etc. I think they should at least listen to their fanbase.

At last a voice of reason!