172 réponses à ce sujet

[J717]

N7 Adam wrote...

Valiant is the best, it's beats the BW in every way.

Uh, no.

The Black Widow is arguably the better choice 90% of the time....even moreso if your BW is rank III or higher. My Black Widow V would run circles around a Valiant and a comparable rank, and most certainly would beat out a Valiant II, which is legitimately the max rank anyone would have a Valiant at right now.

Modifié par J717, 18 avril 2012 - 10:13 .

[methodshaolin]

RazRei wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

Title Question: No.

Answer: Black Widow.

Valiant X might be better than the BW I, but if they're at the same level I'm going with my BW. Also, if you do reload cancelling, they have near the same reload time. Even if you shoot the BW as fast as possible, the reticle always comes to a rest (even if barely) at the point where you last shot (or very, very close to it), so everyone who complains about recoil on the BW has an invalid point. Then again, these are probably the same snipers who take cover rather than keeping the minimum body mass exposed by using full and chest high walls.

hmmmmm

Damage wise the BW 1 does 514.1
Damage wise the BW X does 642.6

Damage wise the Valiant I does 317.2
Damage wise the Valiant X does 396.5

DPS wise the BW I does 514.10
DPS wise the BW X does 642.6

DPS wise the Valiant I does 528.67
DPS wise the Valiant X does 660.83

The main saving grace of the BW has a built in armor penetration.  Other then that the Valiant out classes the BW like the BW out classes the Javelin/Widow.

yeah because 14 theoretical dps really means a lot in this game ...

[Grimy Bunyip]

Apl_J wrote...

Widow is the best for taking down a boss, moreso if you're a Salarian Infiltrator.

Black Widow is the best on pretty much every other character; they need the other shots to get around shield gate.

Valiant is like a much better Viper. You can take down a lot of enemies with it very quickly, but it doesn't have that much use against boss enemies.

And it warrants mentioning, the Kishok is an absolute beast on anyone, IF you can get used to leading your shots.

eh that's not entirely accurate.
Lets look at the Widow X vs Black Widow I vs Valiant I
And lets ignore the 40% SR bonus, and just keep in mind that the SR bonus would favor the valiant more, because of -50 damage from armored targets.
And lets barrel mods and no AP mod.
and lets ignore headshots, since atlas doesn't have that, and you'll want to body shot banshees.
And I don't consider primes all that threatening.

Anyways you get
2110 damage per cloak cycle for valiant I
2524 damage per cloak cycle for widow X
3512 damage per cloak cycle for black widow I (all 3 bullets with cloak bonus)
2341 damage per cloak cycle for black widow I (only 2 bullets then reload)
2934 damage per cloak cycle for black widow I (2 bullets with cloak bonus, then 1 without)

Valiant and widow have firing/reload cycles that are a bit too long for 3 second cloak cooldown.
Black widow can essentially compare, if not outperform widow for tearing down big bosses though.
Especially if you rank up your black widow. BW X is 25% more damage per shot than BW I.

[InfamousResult]

yeah because 14 theoretical dps really means a lot in this game ...

What class do you use your Black Widow on?

[RazRei]

methodshaolin wrote...
yeah because 14 theoretical dps really means a lot in this game ...

If we're going to theorycraft and max/min ourselves; then yes it is.

[SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING]

RazRei wrote...

methodshaolin wrote...
yeah because 14 theoretical dps really means a lot in this game ...

If we're going to theorycraft and max/min ourselves; then yes it is.

OMG this thread is worth a gazillion theorectical dollars

[panda1pandemic]

It's among the best. I tried it once switching from a BW and it felt.. weird because there's little to no recoil, never went back to it but it's certainly good.

[RazRei]

SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING wrote...

RazRei wrote...

methodshaolin wrote...
yeah because 14 theoretical dps really means a lot in this game ...

If we're going to theorycraft and max/min ourselves; then yes it is.

OMG this thread is worth a gazillion theorectical dollars

[J717]

I own both, and to be honest, the BW is just the better weapon in most situations and in the hands of most characters.

I think the other Valiant owners are just trying to find ways to make themselves feel better for having scored one in a Commendation pack where others didn't, since theoretically the Valiant is the "rarer" weapon to get due to being limited, again, in Commendation packs. Unfortunately, rarity =/= usefulness for the large majority of N7 weapons in this game, outside of the Paladin/Black Widow/Saber, imo.

Modifié par J717, 18 avril 2012 - 10:23 .

[Highlord Heian]

Shock n Awe wrote...

Title Question: No.

Answer: Black Widow.

Valiant X might be better than the BW I, but if they're at the same level I'm going with my BW. Also, if you do reload cancelling, they have near the same reload time. Even if you shoot the BW as fast as possible, the reticle always comes to a rest (even if barely) at the point where you last shot (or very, very close to it), so everyone who complains about recoil on the BW has an invalid point.

It's not the reticule not "returning" to the same point, but the amount of time it takes for this, as well as the screen vibration from each shot making it hard to track moving targets, the incredibly long reload time, the incredibly high weight, and the fact that you can't fire all three shots with the damage bonus from Tac Cloak.

So...the only one with an invalid point here is your strawman argument.

Then again, these are probably the same snipers who take cover rather than keeping the minimum body mass exposed by using full and chest high walls.

The difference between "taking cover" and "using full and chest-high walls" is...what? The difference between "using cover" and "using cover"?

[N7 Banshee Bait]

The Valiant is the only sniper rifle I like so far (I need to try the Viper some more). I just unlocked it the other day. I like it because you can fire 3 shots before reloading, reloading is super fast & it's highly accurate. I hate the Widow, Mantis & Black Widow because of the ridiculously long reload time.

[Grimy Bunyip]

RazRei wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

Title Question: No.

Answer: Black Widow.

Valiant X might be better than the BW I, but if they're at the same level I'm going with my BW. Also, if you do reload cancelling, they have near the same reload time. Even if you shoot the BW as fast as possible, the reticle always comes to a rest (even if barely) at the point where you last shot (or very, very close to it), so everyone who complains about recoil on the BW has an invalid point. Then again, these are probably the same snipers who take cover rather than keeping the minimum body mass exposed by using full and chest high walls.

hmmmmm

Damage wise the BW 1 does 514.1
Damage wise the BW X does 642.6

Damage wise the Valiant I does 317.2
Damage wise the Valiant X does 396.5

DPS wise the BW I does 514.10
DPS wise the BW X does 642.6

DPS wise the Valiant I does 528.67
DPS wise the Valiant X does 660.83

The main saving grace of the BW has a built in armor penetration.  Other then that the Valiant out classes the BW like the BW out classes the Javelin/Widow.

that's not entirely accurate.
Valiant fires too fast for cloak cooldowns to catch up.
that limiting factor diminishes the usefulness of the valiant.

Valiant has a firing rate of 100 IE 0.6 seconds between shots right?
Since the 0.6 seconds is a cooldown, it means you can fire 3 shots in as little as 1.2 seconds before reload.
Not fire 3 shots in 1.8 seconds.

Likewise this means black widow fires 3 shots in as little as 2 seconds, not 3 in 3 seconds.

valiant reloads in 0.93 seconds, BW reloads in 2.97

long story short
3 BW bullets in as little as 4.97 seconds
3 valiant bullets in as little as 2.13 seconds

so in theory:
344.8 max DPS on black widow I
446.7 max DPS on valiant I

BUT cloak never refreshes in fewer than 3 seconds.
once you factor in tactical cloak, barrel mod (no AP mod and no headshots), and -50 from armor and the fact that valiant/widow are funneled into firing once every 3 seconds by cloak cooldown you get the following numbers:

703.3 DPS on valiant I
706.8 DPS on black widow I
1008.0 DPS on black widow I if you cloak-cancel your reload animation.
851.3 DPS on widow X if you cloak cancel your reload animation.
669.7 DPS on widow I  if you cloak-cancel your reload animation.

rank for rank these 3 weapons are practically EQUAL in effectiveness against bosses.
Only difference is BW I requires more exposure time and makes you more vulnerable.
and that valiant and widow are better at taking down bosses for any class without cloak.

and uh BW I kicks ass if you can cancel your cloak animation consistently.

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 avril 2012 - 10:26 .

[ReprovedReaper]

I prefer the normal Widow for my Infiltrator class.
Whenever I use sniper with other classes I go for a semi automatic sniper usually the Viper

Modifié par ReprovedReaper, 18 avril 2012 - 10:26 .

[InfamousResult]

I think the other Valiant owners are just trying to find ways to make themselves feel better for having scored one in a Commendation pack where others didn't, since theoretically the Valiant is the "rarer" weapon to get due to being limited, again, in Commendation packs. Unfortunately, rarity = usefulness for the large majority of N7 weapons in this game, outside of the Paladin/Black Widow/Saber, imo.

Except.. not?

A Valiant Infiltrator is simply more efficient than a BW Infiltrator- being the class that uses SRs the most, anyway. And I'm not saying the BW is bad. I suggest bringing a player with a Valiant AND a player with a BW to a match, so they cover each other's bases- big boss characters, and all the smaller baddies. I'm just saying, efficiently, the Valiant is just better.

[Shock n Awe]

Highlord Heian wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

Title Question: No.

Answer: Black Widow.

Valiant X might be better than the BW I, but if they're at the same level I'm going with my BW. Also, if you do reload cancelling, they have near the same reload time. Even if you shoot the BW as fast as possible, the reticle always comes to a rest (even if barely) at the point where you last shot (or very, very close to it), so everyone who complains about recoil on the BW has an invalid point.

It's not the reticule not "returning" to the same point, but the amount of time it takes for this, as well as the screen vibration from each shot making it hard to track moving targets, the incredibly long reload time, the incredibly high weight, and the fact that you can't fire all three shots with the damage bonus from Tac Cloak.

So...the only one with an invalid point here is your strawman argument.

Then again, these are probably the same snipers who take cover rather than keeping the minimum body mass exposed by using full and chest high walls.

The difference between "taking cover" and "using full and chest-high walls" is...what? The difference between "using cover" and "using cover"?

Read the post of the person who quoted me; he sums it up quite nicely.  You can technically be in cover using the corner of a full wall on your left due to the third person nature of the game, but be able to see around the corner.  Likewise with chest-highs if you back up enough you'll have only a slight bit of your character peeking out when you snipe, reducing the chance of being hit.

Combine that with being able to quick scope and moving out of cover per shot, it means you're moving a lot more, but if you're good you're in cover for much more total time than a sniper actually sticking to a piece of cover.

[SOMETHING_FOR_NOTHING]

I like my Valient on my GI, and i have outclassed various other players with BW V+, and i do that reload trick as well, i dont have the BW or even the W..so valient it is

when you farm Geth gold, you have alot of time to practice and know how the geth work ie hop after getting shot in the head, and stuff

[RazRei]

Highlord Heian wrote...

It's not the reticule not "returning" to the same point, but the amount of time it takes for this, as well as the screen vibration from each shot making it hard to track moving targets, the incredibly long reload time, the incredibly high weight, and the fact that you can't fire all three shots with the damage bonus from Tac Cloak.

Actually you can achieve all three shots with the Tactical Cloak power bonus.

Grimy Bunyip wrote...
that's not entirely accurate.
Valiant fires too fast for cloak cooldowns to catch up.
that limiting factor diminishes the usefulness of the valiant.

Valiant has a firing rate of 100 IE 0.6 seconds between shots right?
Since the 0.6 seconds is a cooldown, it means you can fire 3 shots in as little as 1.2 seconds before reload.
Not fire 3 shots in 1.8 seconds.

Likewise this means black widow fires 3 shots in as little as 2 seconds, not 3 in 3 seconds.

valiant reloads in 0.93 seconds, BW reloads in 2.97

long story short
3 BW bullets in as little as 4.97 seconds
3 valiant bullets in as little as 2.13 seconds

so in theory:
344.8 max DPS on black widow I
446.7 max DPS on valiant I

BUT cloak never refreshes in fewer than 3 seconds.
once
you factor in tactical cloak, barrel mod (no AP mod and no headshots),
and -50 from armor and the fact that valiant/widow are funneled into
firing once every 3 seconds by cloak cooldown you get the following
numbers:

703.3 DPS on valiant I
706.8 DPS on black widow I
1008.0 DPS on black widow I if you cloak-cancel your reload animation.
851.3 DPS on widow X if you cloak cancel your reload animation.
669.7 DPS on widow I  if you cloak-cancel your reload animation.

rank for rank these 3 weapons are practically EQUAL in effectiveness against bosses.
Only difference is BW I requires more exposure time and makes you more vulnerable.
and that valiant and widow are better at taking down bosses for any class without cloak.

and uh BW I kicks ass if you can cancel your cloak animation consistently.

I knew someone else was going to do it.  I don't have the Valiant I and I'm stuck on ATM the BW II and I just loath its recoil compared to the Valiant.  Being able to get three headshots off in a round with the Valiant is something I rather do then keep on shifting my mouse with the black widow when things get ugly.  But thanks for that write up.

Modifié par RazRei, 18 avril 2012 - 10:32 .

[Elecbender]

I really want to use my Viper X on Gold. With the bonus fire rate from Hunter Mode, its possible to get all 3 shots off under Cloak and its not like the Valiant kills in less shots against non-boss units that have heads.

But I'm afraid I'll be kicked.

[Shock n Awe]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

RazRei wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

Title Question: No.

Answer: Black Widow.

Valiant X might be better than the BW I, but if they're at the same level I'm going with my BW. Also, if you do reload cancelling, they have near the same reload time. Even if you shoot the BW as fast as possible, the reticle always comes to a rest (even if barely) at the point where you last shot (or very, very close to it), so everyone who complains about recoil on the BW has an invalid point. Then again, these are probably the same snipers who take cover rather than keeping the minimum body mass exposed by using full and chest high walls.

hmmmmm

Damage wise the BW 1 does 514.1
Damage wise the BW X does 642.6

Damage wise the Valiant I does 317.2
Damage wise the Valiant X does 396.5

DPS wise the BW I does 514.10
DPS wise the BW X does 642.6

DPS wise the Valiant I does 528.67
DPS wise the Valiant X does 660.83

The main saving grace of the BW has a built in armor penetration.  Other then that the Valiant out classes the BW like the BW out classes the Javelin/Widow.

that's not entirely accurate.
Valiant fires too fast for cloak cooldowns to catch up.
that limiting factor diminishes the usefulness of the valiant.

Valiant has a firing rate of 100 IE 0.6 seconds between shots right?
Since the 0.6 seconds is a cooldown, it means you can fire 3 shots in as little as 1.2 seconds before reload.
Not fire 3 shots in 1.8 seconds.

Likewise this means black widow fires 3 shots in as little as 2 seconds, not 3 in 3 seconds.

valiant reloads in 0.93 seconds, BW reloads in 2.97

long story short
3 BW bullets in as little as 4.97 seconds
3 valiant bullets in as little as 2.13 seconds

so in theory:
344.8 max DPS on black widow I
446.7 max DPS on valiant I

BUT cloak never refreshes in fewer than 3 seconds.
once you factor in tactical cloak, barrel mod (no AP mod and no headshots), and -50 from armor and the fact that valiant/widow are funneled into firing once every 3 seconds by cloak cooldown you get the following numbers:

703.3 DPS on valiant I
706.8 DPS on black widow I
1008.0 DPS on black widow I if you cloak-cancel your reload animation.
851.3 DPS on widow X if you cloak cancel your reload animation.
669.7 DPS on widow I  if you cloak-cancel your reload animation.

rank for rank these 3 weapons are practically EQUAL in effectiveness against bosses.
Only difference is BW I requires more exposure time and makes you more vulnerable.
and that valiant and widow are better at taking down bosses for any class without cloak.

and uh BW I kicks ass if you can cancel your cloak animation consistently.

If you aren't cloak cancelling your reload, you aren't using the Widow/BW correctly .

[InfamousResult]

RazRei wrote...

Actually you can achieve all three shots with the Tactical Cloak power bonus.

He's talking about the Black Widow, which it is not possible with. You can only get 2 shots with the BW, 3 with the Valiant.

[Grimy Bunyip]

InfamousResult wrote...

I think the other Valiant owners are just trying to find ways to make themselves feel better for having scored one in a Commendation pack where others didn't, since theoretically the Valiant is the "rarer" weapon to get due to being limited, again, in Commendation packs. Unfortunately, rarity = usefulness for the large majority of N7 weapons in this game, outside of the Paladin/Black Widow/Saber, imo.

Except.. not?

A Valiant Infiltrator is simply more efficient than a BW Infiltrator- being the class that uses SRs the most, anyway. And I'm not saying the BW is bad. I suggest bringing a player with a Valiant AND a player with a BW to a match, so they cover each other's bases- big boss characters, and all the smaller baddies. I'm just saying, efficiently, the Valiant is just better.

While I agree that valiant > black widow on its own, I think 2 weapon infiltrator builds beat out having just a valiant.

IMO a carnifex is just as good as a valiant EXCEPT against boss type monsters, because you don't get the 40% sniper rifle damage buff.
the 40% damage buff isn't going to make the difference between a carnifex or a valiant in terms of the number of shots it takes to kill weaker mobs.

And just bring the black widow along to deal with atlases and such.
It's very effective.
The only difference is your cloak coolsdown in 3-6 seconds instead of 3-5 seconds depending on cloak duration.
And frankly 1 extra second of CD after a full-duration cloak is negligible.

Shock n Awe wrote...
If you aren't cloak cancelling your reload, you aren't using the Widow/BW correctly [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie].

yeap

Modifié par Grimy Bunyip, 18 avril 2012 - 10:34 .

[a ViciousFerret]

Shock n Awe wrote...

Title Question: No.

Answer: Black Widow.

Valiant X might be better than the BW I, but if they're at the same level I'm going with my BW. Also, if you do reload cancelling, they have near the same reload time. Even if you shoot the BW as fast as possible, the reticle always comes to a rest (even if barely) at the point where you last shot (or very, very close to it), so everyone who complains about recoil on the BW has an invalid point. Then again, these are probably the same snipers who take cover rather than keeping the minimum body mass exposed by using full and chest high walls.

I tried reload canceling on the xbox and it didn't work. (Pressing Medigel)

Am I doing it wrong or is it PC only?

[Twisted and Mean]

You can't shoot multiple times with either BW or Valiant with your cloak on, unless you're shooting the same target. So if you want to make best use of your cloak you use Widow or Javelin. For finishing weaker enemies off Valiant is best and BW is pretty close.

[Chugster]

methodshaolin wrote...

yeah because 14 theoretical dps really means a lot in this game ...

well Mr CleverDick, its the only logical way to ascertain which is best....pure damage....EVERYTHING else is conjecture and opinion....stats dont lie

114 is more than 100....pure maths....the only thing in this thread that can be considered fact