172 réponses à ce sujet

[MingWolf]

I've only tried the valiant a couple times on gold, and just by the feel of it, it already seems better and quicker at killing things than my BW. The BW has more punch per round, but not by much. The accuracy and quick reload times makes the valiant insanely better. Add the pierce mod, and it just feels like a quicker black widow. The valiant is also lighter, which is great for cloak if you play infiltrators

[KainD]

The top snipers are Kishok and Black widow which both => Javelin, Valiant => All other snipers.

[golyoscsapagy]

ZeroDivision wrote...
Unfortunately you are wrong here.

1 - They are multiplicative. See: http://social.biowar.../index/10639449
2 - This bonus is treated exactly like a weapon damage bonus, and is factored as such in my math.
3 - How are they wrong? 

You calculated ammo damage powers not on the base weapon damage. 

You wrote: Damage from AP Ammo: (528.3778 * (1 + 0.4 + 0.275 + 0.25)) * 0.3 = 305.1382
Actually correct calculation 528,38*(1+0,4)*0,3=221,91

HS is additive. Just check the following example:

I have a javelin 5. Damage is ~1150. Now I shoot a round at something, for example a geth prime. Which receives headshot damage (confirmed by BW). My weapon damage should be 1150*1,4(cloak sniper)*(1+0,275(skill)+0,25(extended barrel)+0,9(cloak)+0,3(sniper amp)=1150*1,4*2,275=3662,75.

I have HS damage bonus, so multiplier is 2,7. According the link you provided I should do 9889 damage. 
Now I can confirm from experience that I get down about 2/3rd of the shield of a gold prime. According to this a prime should have 9889/2*3=14833 hp.

However in reality a geth prime has 11812 shields only. Actually according the link you provided if I put on a warp ammo (25% HS damage bonus), I should do 3662,75*2,7*1,25=12361 damage, so strip off a prime's shields in one shot. Anyone who shot a prime with a javelin can confirm it's not the case.

I don't know where that guy got his data but it pretty much doesn't match real life experiences. So I would call BS on that.

Iteration time. BW rof 60 rpm -> 3 rounds in 2 secs. Reload is 2,97 -> total iteration is 2+2,97=4,97s.

[Mandalore313]

Yes it is the best SR in the game, right now.

It's better than the BW even when you cancel reload and do headshots *all the time* (which you probably won't).

It suffers a bit in how fast you can take out big enemies compared to the BW because of the extra AP, but its ability to dispatch lesser enemies very fast is what makes it the best.

If you use it right you will *always* outscore another infiltrator with a BW, unless you do something badly.

Modifié par Mandalore313, 19 avril 2012 - 01:43 .

[ZeroDivision]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

You calculated ammo damage powers not on the base weapon damage. 

You wrote: Damage from AP Ammo: (528.3778 * (1 + 0.4 + 0.275 + 0.25)) * 0.3 = 305.1382
Actually correct calculation 528,38*(1+0,4)*0,3=221,91

HS is additive. Just check the following example:

I have a javelin 5. Damage is ~1150. Now I shoot a round at something, for example a geth prime. Which receives headshot damage (confirmed by BW). My weapon damage should be 1150*1,4(cloak sniper)*(1+0,275(skill)+0,25(extended barrel)+0,9(cloak)+0,3(sniper amp)=1150*1,4*2,275=3662,75.

I have HS damage bonus, so multiplier is 2,7. According the link you provided I should do 9889 damage. 
Now I can confirm from experience that I get down about 2/3rd of the shield of a gold prime. According to this a prime should have 9889/2*3=14833 hp.

However in reality a geth prime has 11812 shields only. Actually according the link you provided if I put on a warp ammo (25% HS damage bonus), I should do 3662,75*2,7*1,25=12361 damage, so strip off a prime's shields in one shot. Anyone who shot a prime with a javelin can confirm it's not the case.

I don't know where that guy got his data but it pretty much doesn't match real life experiences. So I would call BS on that.

Iteration time. BW rof 60 rpm -> 3 rounds in 2 secs. Reload is 2,97 -> total iteration is 2+2,97=4,97s.

1 - I regularly drop a Prime's shields on Gold in 1 headshot without any rail or ammo consumables. This is backed up by his formula.
2 - If you'd actually bothered to read his or my post you'd know where he got his data and why I used it.
3 - Your math is jumbled and inconsistent.

Oh, and I already broke my Iteration formula down for you, but in case you missed it: 

ZeroDivision wrote...

Lets break one down: Total Iteraion Time: (((60 / 60) * ( 3 - 1)) + 2.97) % 3 = 3 seconds

What you have here is one minute in seconds divided by the RPM to get the number of seconds per bullet as 1. Next we multiply that by the number of shots in a clip disregarding the first shot as it has no delay before firing. Finally we add the reload time. Now, because you can cancel reload animations with other animations, power uses, or consumable uses we truncate it to 3 seconds assuming the reload time + shot time is > 3 but the total shot iteration is < 3. This is because the refresh time on cloak is 3 seconds if you cloak+fire rather than letting it time down, and activating cloak will remove 1.97 seconds of the BW's reload due to the way it's timed.

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 19 avril 2012 - 01:51 .

[X2-Elijah]

Back to more sensible matters instead of inane number e-pe33n stretching..

From what I've seen, the Valiant can be very good in the hands of a good sniper player. Personally, I prefer the BW - but having tried both, it is a matter of preference, simply use which feels more useful to your style of play. I will say this, though - an infiltrator with a valiant/BW is much more likely to come close to first/second place than an infiltrator with a javelin/widow. And personally, I find it more fun to play with valiant/BW users on the team, it's a nice way to have a little sniping competition.

And, out of the pack, Valiant is almost the only rifle I could see being useful when weilded by a noninfiltrator class.

Modifié par X2-Elijah, 19 avril 2012 - 01:52 .

[tvih]

Had a Geth Infiltrator with a Valiant in FBW/Geth/Gold yesterday. It was hard to kill anything as an Asari Adept because the guy kept killing everything so fast with cloaked triple-shots. So, the best? I don't know, but pretty crazy in the right hands.

[ZeroDivision]

X2-Elijah wrote...

Back to more sensible matters instead of inane number e-pe33n stretching..

From what I've seen, the Valiant can be very good in the hands of a good sniper player. Personally, I prefer the BW - but having tried both, it is a matter of preference, simply use which feels more useful to your style of play. I will say this, though - an infiltrator with a valiant/BW is much more likely to come close to first/second place than an infiltrator with a javelin/widow. And personally, I find it more fun to play with valiant/BW users on the team, it's a nice way to have a little sniping competition.

And, out of the pack, Valiant is almost the only rifle I could see being useful when weilded by a noninfiltrator class.

Sorry, but math is and will always be more "sensible" than casual observations and baseless opinions of random people.

As to the Valiant itself, the Paladin is a better Valiant in every way. This is regardless of the class it's used on.

[KiraTsukasa]

If there are two snipers of equal skill, one with a Valiant and one with a Black Widow, the one with the Valiant will out score the other because the Black Widow user will be out of things to kill. You guys can throw math around all you want, but it doesn't make a difference. If a headshot with a weaker weapon can one hit kill a target, then the extra damage on the stronger weapon is entirely pointless. What it comes down to after that is efficiency, and the Valiant has it in spades. Almost no recoil, fast firing speed, extremely short reload time. In the time the Black Widow can get two shots off, the Valiant will have taken out three, reloaded, and is lining up the fourth.

[Terraflare]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

If there are two snipers of equal skill, one with a Valiant and one with a Black Widow, the one with the Valiant will out score the other because the Black Widow user will be out of things to kill. You guys can throw math around all you want, but it doesn't make a difference. If a headshot with a weaker weapon can one hit kill a target, then the extra damage on the stronger weapon is entirely pointless. What it comes down to after that is efficiency, and the Valiant has it in spades. Almost no recoil, fast firing speed, extremely short reload time. In the time the Black Widow can get two shots off, the Valiant will have taken out three, reloaded, and is lining up the fourth.

I notice this myself (I use both rifles alot). A static environment (FBW gold farming) makes this apparent - a good Valiant user (same level as BW user) will kill things so quickly that the BW guy cant get targets. I make no comment about which overall does more damage, but I do feel big targets go down faster with BW. With prox mine cycles, Primes will go down in 2 BW cycles using GI (regularly, tried this many times on primes when no one was shooting it). I feel the Valiant cant kill a prime as fast, even if it can spit out 1 whole clip extra in that time. 

The 0 recoil + nonexistent reload really allows it to make headshot after headshot and clear trash like nothing. 

[X2-Elijah]

ZeroDivision wrote...



Sorry, but math is and will always be more "sensible" than casual observations and baseless opinions of random people.

Riight, because in game you will get an infinite stream of non-stop non-attacking enemies all lined up perfectly, where every single shot hits the head (or no shots hit the head and all hit body, but a part that's not covered by armour) and where your spare ammo never runs dry so you never have to run to an ammo box.. A situation where a "dps" metric is 100% applicable, sure.

Math is only as good as the environment it is simulated in. And you calculations do not account for ****/miss probabilities, recoil amounts, % of time an enemy is in sights, % of time spent NOT SHOOTING, etc. etc.
So stop doing primary school math and trying to sell it as an advanced realistic approximation.

I don't know about you, but in yhe ME3 multiplayer I've played, the monsters move around, are varied in sizes, shieldgating exists, shots can be missed, ammo can run dry, the snipers themselves must move about and cannot stand and shoot non-stop..
Basically, in the ME3 MP I've seen - the one BioWare actually released - a DPS metric is USELESS for comparing. And frankly, going a few posts above:

RazRei wrote...

hmmmmm

Damage wise the BW 1 does 514.1
Damage wise the BW X does 642.6

Damage wise the Valiant I does 317.2
Damage wise the Valiant X does 396.5

DPS wise the BW I does 514.10
DPS wise the BW X does 642.6

DPS wise the Valiant I does 528.67
DPS wise the Valiant X does 660.83

The
main saving grace of the BW has a built in armor penetration.  Other
then that the Valiant out classes the BW like the BW out classes the
Javelin/Widow.

you are comparing BW vs. Valiant DPS, and the differences are in the area of 16-18 points. OH WOW OMG SUPERBIG DIFFERENCE EH? Yeeah, Valiant sure is sooo much better due to that extra 18 damage points per second in a fairytale simulated situation..

Modifié par X2-Elijah, 19 avril 2012 - 04:42 .

[ZeroDivision]

X2-Elijah wrote...
Snip...

1 - Not my math. I specifically posted a link to my thread which simulates in-game use not just infinite shooting of an infinite target.
2 - Your post is so very full of logical fallacies that I'm snipping it simply so I don't have to point them all out.
3 - This isn't a math vs you situation. If you think this way you have anti-intellectual tendencies which you should probably take care of.
4 - In case you missed it, here's my link again: http://social.biowar...ndex/11488278/1

Modifié par ZeroDivision, 19 avril 2012 - 04:54 .

[tzabaothg]

Love all the math here, I did skip the last couple pages but there is a point I have yet to see anyone mention in these flavor threads.

I do not have BW yet (ALL rares at X, all vanilla classes maxed on appearances, all new classes) but I have been rolling with Valiant for a couple weeks now.,

On larger maps like dagger/hydra/etc it becomes apparent that Valiant is not a true hitscan weapon. On several occasions (even as host) I have fired at the head and watched the mob walk away while the bullet missed. Yes this can be compensated for via leading or stuns but it is worth taking into consideration when comparing Valiant to BW.

My understanding is that BW does not function like this. Nor does Widow.

[methodshaolin]

tzabaothg wrote...

...
On larger maps like dagger/hydra/etc it becomes apparent that Valiant is not a true hitscan weapon...

are you sure it wasn't just lag?

[Sabbatine]

XxXSarenXxX wrote...

Is the N7 Valiant the top sniper in the game? i just unlocked rank 1 if so when does it become obsolete Example: is a level 5 Javelin better? etc. thank you.

In my opinion the valiant is the superior rifle in most situations but I think the black widow improves quite a bit more as it levels up and at level 10 the black widow could be the better weapon.

It's not necessarily the best way to measure effectiveness but I have never been beaten in score by another infiltrator using a black widow of any level (highest I've seen is 3) while I was using my valiant 1.

Ultimately it's a matter of preference, not really a matter of blanketly being able to say one is better than the other.

[Slakky]

golyoscsapagy wrote...

Slakky wrote...

From a pure score standpoint, the Valiant is way better. It kills common and lieutenants with as many shots as the BW, and it does it a lot faster.

In terms of team play the BW can be a much more effective big game hunter, which may matter more depending on the team. It's not gonna be pills for your eBoner though.

It doesn't deal 2,2k damage per shot so sorry, no. It won't kill properly. Sure on bronze it's good, but again you can go there and beat up stuff with a krogan d*ck.

Ummm, I still drop 3 common in a clip on Gold?  You have to land headshots, but if you're not pulling 80% headshots in ME3, you have no business picking up a sniper.

[tzabaothg]

methodshaolin wrote...

tzabaothg wrote...

...
On larger maps like dagger/hydra/etc it becomes apparent that Valiant is not a true hitscan weapon...

are you sure it wasn't just lag?

There should be no lag while hosting, this is usually only a problem on large maps with enemies moving laterally.

On dagger from up top after spawn (to the left, behind the ramp) enemies moving towards the ladder do require a lead.

On hydra from spawn all the way down to the far right spawn point it is even more apparent.

On tuchanka from spawn to the far building it is also readily apparent.

There are many more places where this happens.

My brother does have a BW and I let him fool around with my Valiant so he could see the difference (hosting a multiplayer solo). He also pointed this out without me ever bringing it up. He noticed there was something different about the way the two felt...the travel time of the bullet ended up being the difference.

[AdmLancel]

I personally prefer the Black Widow with its built in armor penetration. Valiant has a slight DPS advantage and it can clear mooks faster if you're a good shot, since it reloads faster and has less recoil. I can only speak from single player though and eyeballing stats.

For me I prefer the Black Widow because of the more impressive one-shot potential, and you can sling out more damage while lining up fewer shots, which overall means a bit less time spent exposed to enemy fire. The reload isn't as big a deal for an Infiltrator because of the minimum cooldown on Tactical Cloak anyway. You can take the time to reload the Black Widow while you wait for the cloak's CD to finish. It also has some built in armor penetration so you don't have to feel like you need the armor penetration mod if you want something else.

Also the Black Widow looks and sounds much more awesome.

[Falcyn]

When people compare the Valiant to BW, they tend to ignore the fact that the BW has built-in armor penetration, so you effectively get to use three mods with it. That's a tremendous advantage.

[BioWareAlistair]

I like the discussion in this thread. It's always interesting to see why people enjoying using one weapon over another and what their reasons are.

'Best' is entirely subjective of course and raw DPS numbers don't tell the whole story. Weight, recoil, reload speed, magazine size and ammo capacity and a whole bunch of other variables all up add up to different results for different people.

My personal favorite is the Javelin, it's a difficult rifle to master but is extremely satisfying to use.

[Aarek]

BioWareAlistair wrote...

My personal favorite is the Javelin, it's a difficult rifle to master but is extremely satisfying to use.

I'd love to have a chance at trying to master it, so how about sending one my way in the next Commendation Pack we're given?

[BioWareAlistair]

Aarek wrote...

BioWareAlistair wrote...

My personal favorite is the Javelin, it's a difficult rifle to master but is extremely satisfying to use.

I'd love to have a chance at trying to master it, so how about sending one my way in the next Commendation Pack we're given?

I'm still trying to upgrade mine! -- keep trying for yours

[Bapawaka]

BioWareAlistair wrote...

Aarek wrote...

BioWareAlistair wrote...

My personal favorite is the Javelin, it's a difficult rifle to master but is extremely satisfying to use.

I'd love to have a chance at trying to master it, so how about sending one my way in the next Commendation Pack we're given?

I'm still trying to upgrade mine! -- keep trying for yours

Waiting for someone to make a meme of Alistair(DA:O) weilding a javelin.<3

[Grimy Bunyip]

Bapawaka wrote...

BioWareAlistair wrote...

Aarek wrote...

BioWareAlistair wrote...

My personal favorite is the Javelin, it's a difficult rifle to master but is extremely satisfying to use.

I'd love to have a chance at trying to master it, so how about sending one my way in the next Commendation Pack we're given?

I'm still trying to upgrade mine! -- keep trying for yours

Waiting for someone to make a meme of Alistair(DA:O) weilding a javelin.<3

wasn't that technically a pike or a spear or something? 

[Pinkeye60]

For me it's the Valiant all the way. I love the fact that all 3 bullets whill go exactly where I want, that I don't have to wait longer than a Batarian heavy melee to reload, and coupled with my GI, some mods, some equipment, and the right ammo, taking down geth primes in 12 shots (about 15-20 seconds game time)