172 réponses à ce sujet

[Shock n Awe]

Sabbatine wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

3) "the incredibly long reload time"
If you aren't exploiting, you aren't using the weapon right.  If you are exploiting, the reload speed is negligible as it is ready to fire as soon as cloaking is done cooling down.

Fixed that for you.

The reload "exploit" has been in the game since Mass Effect 2.  If it was truly an exploit, BioWare would have had several years to make it so that rather than the ammo appearing in the gun when the CLIP is inserted, it appeared after the animation finished.  This was VERY popular with Claymore Vanguards in ME2; BioWare absolutely knew it existed before ME3, and knows it exists.  If they wanted it "fixed", they would move the point where the gun gains ammo to after the entire animation.  They haven't.  It was more than likely included, on purpose, as something skilled players could do to lessen reload times, which would make it not an exploit.

If it was an exploit, they would only have to move the point where the gun's ammo replenishes to after the full animation is completed to fix it, rather than after the clip is inserted.

Modifié par Shock n Awe, 20 avril 2012 - 03:39 .

[DeliciousBread]

Having had both sniper rifles and using them both fairly proficiently, BW is overall a more well-rounded gun, but Valiant is just insane when it comes to clearing out Geth. Here is why.

Vrs Geth: Geth tend to have the same strafing patterns as most husks. Except they move far slower. The odd-shaped heads make missing a headshot with BW very unforgiving since you have to then reload, thus wasting precious time. This is where I feel the Valiant shines in that the quick fire rate and the reload speed is extremely forgiving. In addition, Geth don't necessarily bombard you with constant fire, which makes shooting often fairly ideal. This allows you to capitalize on Valiant's advantage of using more shots but achieving overall much more damage per second. Again, this will depend on how good you are. I've gone head to head with another infiltrator with me using a BW and him using a Valiant and we ended up tying at the end. Granted I focused my fire far more on Geth Primes and left the little guys for him to pick off, but basically, I could have easily poached his kills by abusing the BW's power to get a HS kill after he hits it once or twice weakening it for me. Obviously this strategy would be detrimental to teamplay so I didn't do it.

Vrs Cerebus: Again, BW is slightly better I find against the fodder, and the array of enemies. This is where the BW's raw power really helps to clear the field fast. Even though valiant has a faster fire rate, having to take 2 shots to kill basic stuff like Guardians is really just too time consuming given how important it can be to clear off the fodder so you can focus down either the turret being set up, or the incoming phantoms about to eat your teammates. But again, Valiant is king when clearing phantoms. Also, Cerebus does cover themselves quite efficiently with smoke, blanket fire from nemesis and also turret camps which may not make sticking your head out of cover for a long time a good idea.

Vs Reaper: Valiant is slightly inferior b/c of the penetrating power. Reapers are extremely squishy when you can penetrate and hit twice on 1 target. By choosing the AP Mod over the ammo mod, you effectively need to run for more ammo constantly. This is extremely bad if you are trying to clear ravagers for your teammates. Not to mention, if you have a ravager targetting you, it's impossible to spam fire. You tend to lose your shoot many shots advantage against reapers, whereas BW's hard hits will persist against targets like ravagers, brutes and BW can 1-shot Mauraders after their shields have been stripped.

Again, what I write here is very minor pros and cons. You can still easily dominate with both rifles regardless of enemy type. I'm merely pointing out where I've found each gun has weakness. Also, some days I have those derp moments where I'm just too lazy to spam click so I roll with BW.

Modifié par DeliciousBread, 20 avril 2012 - 07:21 .

[Gashie]

I have a Widow II, Mantis X and the N7 Valiant among others, but no BW. Usually use the Mantis X with AP and Extended Barrel mod over the Widow II (the weight is helpful on my SI), and pack a sidearm. But ever since I got the Valiant from OP: Raptor, I did away with the sidearm and just rock it with an AP+EB.

I just love the low kickback and short reload time and magazine size is considerable (I've read on wiki even if you get upgraded ranks of the Valiant, it will always have a size of 30 though).

Would probably only change my sniper rifle of choice on two of my infiltrators if and when I get the BW.

[Shajar]

Apl_J wrote...


Valiant is like a much better Viper. You can take down a lot of enemies with it very quickly, but it doesn't have that much use against boss enemies.

Valiant 2 just owns bosses. Awesome weapon, too bad it sounds like water gun when it fires 

[Exodus2000]

Yes it is from the SP I got the Horicane II from my compack...

[Shajar]

Exodus2000 wrote...

Yes it is from the SP I got the Horicane II from my compack...

I got Valiant II , but thats probably only good thing i got

[HolyAvenger]

Valiant I with an AP mod is OK against bosses, but really I look to clear trash first (depending on team composition...if I'm with a vanguard, the trash is theirs).

[Rodia Driftwood]

I love the Widow, but when I upgrade the Harpoon Gun, I'm sure I'm going to love it some more.

I love how powerful it can be EVEN on Gold.

[Wiggly]

I'd say the Valiant/BW is best due to shield gating (only speaking of gold). I got Valiant II and Javelin III, I like the Javelin more due to it's high damage and armor/wall penetration, but the low ammo, long reload, high weight and lost damage to shield gating just makes in unfeasible other than joy rides, except for maybe against reapers, but I never play reapers on gold anyway. Only problem with the Valiant is the bebe gun sound it makes when shooting.

Edit: actually got Javelin III lol, still not good enough to use over Valiant II

Modifié par Wiggly, 20 avril 2012 - 08:45 .

[Thin]

My main group talked about this a bunch, and we had the following viewpoints.

On the rare occasion that I take up the role of sniper, I should use the Widow.
When one has the sniper, he should use the Valiant.
When another has the sniper, she should use the Javelin or the Kishok.
When another has the sniper, he should have the BW.

It all comes down to how each individual plays. Those three mix up who's the sniper pretty often, and we all adjust automatically. For example, after the first wave one player is excellent at leading the enemy, but poor at quick shots. Another is good at quickly shooting multiple enemies, but somehow tends to mess up single shots. Another could care less about mooks and typically saves their shots for bigger enemies. I can't score multiple shots with a sniper rifle to save my life, and besides, I do better with other weapons. (We joke that both my Carnifex and Saber should count as a sniper rifle with how often I get headshots from sniper distances. I'm usually in the top two with one of those two weapons regardless of which class I'm playing.)

I can't say realistically which one is best because they all work perfectly in the hands of the person who's mastered them.

[Shock n Awe]

N7 Adam wrote...

You can reload cancel the Valiant if you're fast enough and I get 4 shots off before the Tac Cloack even recharges with just the Valiant equipped, I'm probably getting the tac boost on the four shot.

"Doesn't affect tactical cloak cooldown time so long as you aren't cloaked for an excessive amount of time."
It does if you're actually are tyring to be a team player by geting the objectives or reviving teammates.

And all the other points are just from player skill, the Valiant would just increase your potential.

Unless another infiltrator volunteers, I'm always runnin out to the objectives the second one pops up.  You don't have to cloak immediately, only when you get near enemies, which if you move fast enough is generally pretty close to the objective.  Centurions and Assault Troopers can't hit a moving target consistently, so I'll simply run past groups of them uncloaked until I find more dangerous enemies (pack of nemesis, phantoms, atlases, engineers) and then cloak.  I can generally uncloak around the corner, and after an objective I can take cover for a second or two, then begin running uncloaked and repeat.

Also, with the Black Widow's reticle returning to the point you fired, after toying around with my Geth Infiltrator and Hunter Mode and such, the reticle will always return to the point where it was fired.  If you speed up the fire rate of the BW, the reticle will return to the starting point faster, resulting in each shot having a net reticle movement of zero.

All this said, the Valiant and the Black Widow are still rather close.  As has been said, the deciding factor is your skill with each and your play style.  Being skilled with a weapon can cause you to be much more effective with it than another weapon that, while statistically the same or slightly better, has a much different style of play, the the point that you do worse with it.

Modifié par Shock n Awe, 20 avril 2012 - 02:07 .

[Dr Derp]

Black Widow is better but the valiant is not far behind

[Sabbatine]

Shock n Awe wrote...

Sabbatine wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

3) "the incredibly long reload time"
If you aren't exploiting, you aren't using the weapon right.  If you are exploiting, the reload speed is negligible as it is ready to fire as soon as cloaking is done cooling down.

Fixed that for you.

The reload "exploit" has been in the game since Mass Effect 2.  If it was truly an exploit, BioWare would have had several years to make it so that rather than the ammo appearing in the gun when the CLIP is inserted, it appeared after the animation finished.  This was VERY popular with Claymore Vanguards in ME2; BioWare absolutely knew it existed before ME3, and knows it exists.  If they wanted it "fixed", they would move the point where the gun gains ammo to after the entire animation.  They haven't.  It was more than likely included, on purpose, as something skilled players could do to lessen reload times, which would make it not an exploit.

If it was an exploit, they would only have to move the point where the gun's ammo replenishes to after the full animation is completed to fix it, rather than after the clip is inserted.

If it wasn't an exploit, one of the loading screen hints would tell players how to reload cancel... but that's another issue entirely.

You could hack files in ME2 and substantially improve your weapon performance in ME2 and can do the same in ME3, are you claiming that this also is not an exploit? 

Whether an exploit gets fixed or not has no bearing on its status as an exploit.  You are abusing game mechanics to gain an advantage which is pretty silly considering how easy the game already is.  I guess I should be thankful I don't land in games with you, but then I don't spend all my time on firebase white fighting the geth so avoiding exploiters tends to be pretty simply.

As for fixing it, you make it sound like you could do it yourself in a few minutes.  It's not as easy as you think it is.  ME3 is built on the foundation of ME2.  Reload mechanics go far deeper than simply choosing which part of the animation the actual reload occurs in.

Modifié par Sabbatine, 20 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[Grimy Bunyip]

Sabbatine wrote...

If it wasn't an exploit, one of the loading screen hints would tell players how to reload cancel... but that's another issue entirely.

You could hack files in ME2 and substantially improve your weapon performance in ME2 and can do the same in ME3, are you claiming that this also is not an exploit? 

Whether an exploit gets fixed or not has no bearing on its status as an exploit.  You are abusing game mechanics to gain an advantage which is pretty silly considering how easy the game already is.  I guess I should be thankful I don't land in games with you, but then I don't spend all my time on firebase white fighting the geth so avoiding exploiters tends to be pretty simply.

As for fixing it, you make it sound like you could do it yourself in a few minutes.  It's not as easy as you think it is.  ME3 is built on the foundation of ME2.  Reload mechanics go far deeper than simply choosing which part of the animation the actual reload occurs in.

A lot of games have, and historically never punish animation cancelling though.
And for that reason a lot of gamers accept animation cancelling as an "acceptable" exploit.
Whereas editing coalesced would be considered a taboo because that is typically punished in most other games.
It's a quirk of gaming culture.

You can try to reason that both are technically exploits, but ultimately the reason is ultimately cultural and not technical.

You could compare it to asking whether or not alcohol and nicotine should be considered drugs.

[k0xfilter]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

Valiant has better sustained DPS than the black widow.
Meaning it's better on any class that isn't an infiltrator.

when you're an infiltrator though, the valiant actually fires and reloads a little too quickly. You'll find yourself completely idle waiting for your cloak cooldown to finish after firing all 3 shots and reloading with the valiant.

1on1 against big enemys (brutes, atlas etc.) the bw clearly winns against the valiant. but trough the 10 (11) waves you have enough normal enemys that you can oneshot (hs) without cloaking.

ps: sorry for my bad english. im from switzerland and a little tired right now^^

[Terraflare]

Grimy Bunyip wrote...

You could compare it to asking whether or not alcohol and nicotine should be considered drugs.

Exactly. Every game will have its ambiguities. Quake and CS (early days for CS) had bunnyhopping and wallstrafing with nearly no limit to speed. The horrible coding, hitboxes for old HL1 engine allowed for much greater room for 'exploit', which is why I find FPSes nowadays to be a little boring. Although they were 'exploits' of the game mechanic in the strict sense, they have always been an integral part of both competitive scenes because it raises the skill cap for the game. Bindings allowing crouchjump to replace the normal jump was also part of the few 'scripts' that were allowed for competitive matches and such. TF2 soldiers also learn how to keep spam up while never going below 3/4 rockets in clip. For anyone that plays tf2 as well - its common and a good way to keep spamming while always being nearly fully loaded for when things fly at you. 

Same as reload cancelling, someone who has the consistency to pull off over 40 cancels a minute, not miss any headshots, and still continue normal cloak cycles should be rewarded for being able to do so, as opposed to simply pressing R when your clip is dry and sitting there pressing nothing for 3 seconds.

You can reload cancel a Valiant for ridiculous number of shots, but because the timing is so tight having to juggle that with aiming, reaiming, normal cloak cycles/power use, dodging bullets, its hard to pull off 100% of the time especially in any environment that is not as static as a geth gold farm or vs an atlas. 

[GroverA125]

Statistically, the Valiant is the most powerful sniper available to the player, as it has the greatest DPS of all sniper rifles (at the same level). It's very close with the black widow, however, but again, statistically, the valiant has less recoil, more spare ammo (removing the requirement of a spare ammo capacity mod) and a better RoF (if only by the fact that the lack of recoil means you can keep a clean shot on target) at the cost of having to add AP to it via mod.

Basically, if you want a semi-auto sniper, the valiant (With AP and damage) is the most powerful, if you want a bolt-action, go with either the Javelin, Widow or Kishock (matter of preference, the Mantis is only better in weight. All of these have one very effective advantage).

[Shock n Awe]

Sabbatine wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

Sabbatine wrote...

Shock n Awe wrote...

3) "the incredibly long reload time"
If you aren't exploiting, you aren't using the weapon right.  If you are exploiting, the reload speed is negligible as it is ready to fire as soon as cloaking is done cooling down.

Fixed that for you.

The reload "exploit" has been in the game since Mass Effect 2.  If it was truly an exploit, BioWare would have had several years to make it so that rather than the ammo appearing in the gun when the CLIP is inserted, it appeared after the animation finished.  This was VERY popular with Claymore Vanguards in ME2; BioWare absolutely knew it existed before ME3, and knows it exists.  If they wanted it "fixed", they would move the point where the gun gains ammo to after the entire animation.  They haven't.  It was more than likely included, on purpose, as something skilled players could do to lessen reload times, which would make it not an exploit.

If it was an exploit, they would only have to move the point where the gun's ammo replenishes to after the full animation is completed to fix it, rather than after the clip is inserted.

If it wasn't an exploit, one of the loading screen hints would tell players how to reload cancel... but that's another issue entirely.

You could hack files in ME2 and substantially improve your weapon performance in ME2 and can do the same in ME3, are you claiming that this also is not an exploit? 

Whether an exploit gets fixed or not has no bearing on its status as an exploit.  You are abusing game mechanics to gain an advantage which is pretty silly considering how easy the game already is.  I guess I should be thankful I don't land in games with you, but then I don't spend all my time on firebase white fighting the geth so avoiding exploiters tends to be pretty simply.

As for fixing it, you make it sound like you could do it yourself in a few minutes.  It's not as easy as you think it is.  ME3 is built on the foundation of ME2.  Reload mechanics go far deeper than simply choosing which part of the animation the actual reload occurs in.

Hacking files isn't a game mechanic.

Firebase White Geth?  I play about one game of that a week.  Geth are my absolute least favorite enemy to fight, I prefer Unknown-Unknown Gold.

Thanks for the constant insults, by the way.  "Exploiting", insinuating I have no skill, when I have done none of the same to you.

Modifié par Shock n Awe, 20 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[RamsenC]

I didn't read every post, but it seems like no one is giving burst damage any love. Sustained DPS is nice, but burst damage and crowd control is more important than sustained dps. The Black Widow has the best combination of burst damage and sustained DPS in the game. Widow/Javelin and Valiant are on extreme ends of the spectrum, while the Black Widow is right in the middle.

In the end any of the four top snipers are fine choices. My highest scoring game is still with the Widow X despite having a Black Widow IV. I did have energy drain though  

Modifié par RamsenC, 20 avril 2012 - 07:48 .

[Shadow]

I have yet to get the BW (bought many premium and regular specture packs. But I use the Valiant I with my infiltrator. I do a lot of damage on gold (1st or second place) My Valiant I beats my Widow VIII on almost every map. (I use geth and Qaurian infiltrators)

[ApuLunas]

i have blackwidow X, i prefer valiant I anytime.

[XSpectreReconX]

KainD wrote...

The top snipers are Kishok and Black widow which both => Javelin, Valiant => All other snipers.

ughhhh Javelin extended barrel + AP Mod with reload animation canceling can yeild some very very nice dps, provided your skilled enough to re-aquire the targets head the second your reloaded, which comes with practise, use on a GI with hunter mode for truly scary results, particularly on Larger or armoured enemies, you can practically one shot an atlas's armour on silver, combine with the sniper gear bonus, ammo bonuses and weapon amps.... carnage ensues.