352 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

dreman9999 wrote...

@111987 

1. How do we know that really happean, one else comfirms it and your fighting a race of machines with a history of great deception.
2.Again, as I asked before...How do we know the star child is telling the truth? That could be a lie.

You are either just ignoring or misunderstanding all my points, so we can't really have a discussion.

[Dendio1]

Deus ex had a similar ending where you had an AI give a few choices to decide the outcome. The difference is that it was clear that the AI in deus ex HR was an ally. You saved her a few times and she aided you throughout the story. It made sense to trust her.

Star kid however is the leader of the enemy, and makes his appearance in the last 5 mins of the game. He also makes it clear that he can't and won't use the crucible. He doesn't like it. He says he his solution no longer works, but is unwilling to create a new one. Shepard has to pull the trigger. He tells you that you can control the reapers after you learn that everyone who has ever believed in control ended up indoctrinated. Synthesis comes out of left field and seems unrealistic. Destroy is refuted as the worst choice by star kid, even though it has been shepards choice for the entire trilogy. I have a hard time believing him with all this under consideration.

If star kid dropped out of the sky  in the beginning right after the reapers hit earth, would you choose anything but destroy?

Modifié par Dendio1, 22 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Humakt83]

The Angry One wrote...
Your entire point is moot, the Catalyst is all too willing to explain his reasons, and they are HIS reasons. He controls the Reapers. They are his solution.

What proof you have that he is controlling the Reapers?

[Zolt51]

Why would the catalyst have to be telling the truth?

"I control the reapers."

There. He is not your friend. He's got every incentive to stop or mislead you.
However you did manage to dock your superweapon to the citadel. You find yourself in a position to destroy the reapers, and I don't think there's actually much he can do to stop you.. being you know, incorporeal and all. So he tries to argue against it. Some people have a problem with his arguments. Cool. You have actually a couple choices to go directly against these.

These choices may not satisfy you but hey... don't blame it on the kid. He didn't build that damn crucible thing. You guys did.

Modifié par Zolt51, 22 avril 2012 - 06:49 .

[Thrombin]

There is no logical reason to disbelieve the Catalyst because the Catalyst has nothing whatsoever to gain by lieing.

If the Catalyst wanted the Reapers to win and continue the cycle it would just have left Shepard to die and not sent the elevator to lift him to the crucible's controls. Even if you argue that the fleet could have won conventionally (highly unlikely) there's no way a race as arrogant in their power as the Reapers would ever have believed that.

Therefore, the only reason for the catalyst to send the elevator is if he wanted something different to the usual Reaper victory. There is no other logical explanation.

Now, if he wanted to use the Crucible for a particular result he could just as easily have let Shepard die and beam some indoctrinated human up to pick whatever option he wanted.

Admittedly, not control, as there's no point exercising control with someone already under control but, then, the Catalyst already controls the Reapers so I don't see what he gains there.

At the end of the day no other scenario makes sense. He must want to stop the Reaper destruction by activating the Crucible and he must be happy for Shepard to mAke that choice.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to see a reason to believe him when it makes no sense to me not to!

[The Night Mammoth]

Humakt83 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Your entire point is moot, the Catalyst is all too willing to explain his reasons, and they are HIS reasons. He controls the Reapers. They are his solution.

What proof you have that he is controlling the Reapers?

It says it does. 

The blue door allows you to. 

Vendetta says there's something else controlling the cycles.

Not that you should go along with anything it says, considering everything about it is deceptive and nothing it says has a nugget of truth behind it. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Thrombin wrote...
I don't understand why it's so hard for people to see a reason to believe him when it makes no sense to me not to!

What, specifically, should be believed? 

The entire point of the Catalyst and its choices is centered around a problem it presents to you. That problem does not exist. It is bull****. There's no reason for me to believe synthetic life is that much of a danger. 

So, I'd rather let the fleets kick the **** out of the Reapers and save everyone, than give in to what some hologaphic AI thing I've never met before that tells me it's the Reaper's overlord. 

[Baa Baa]

I don't understand people saying that he has no reason to lie. Of course he does, destroying Synthetics destroys him, and the cycle he has created. But synthesis and control still give him the chance to live. And who even knows if the destroy ending really does destroy all synthetics and he isn't lying. I mean Shepard can survive that ending. That totally contradicts his statements.

[dreman9999]

111987 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

@111987 

1. How do we know that really happean, one else comfirms it and your fighting a race of machines with a history of great deception.
2.Again, as I asked before...How do we know the star child is telling the truth? That could be a lie.

You are either just ignoring or misunderstanding all my points, so we can't really have a discussion.

How amI doing that when I already directly commented on it.
 My points are :
Nothing comfirms what he say.
He never give proof of what he says.
He never shows any true form of power.
He never shows any true sense of reality.

If anyone who is not undering standing anyones point, it's you.

[Dendio1]

The game doesn't give you an alternative. The actual cut scenes don't tell us whether or not he was lying. Well, we get a vague rendition of what he says will happen, but we don't know the extent of our control, how much of ones self they possess after synthesis or whether or not the geth are truly destroyed

Modifié par Dendio1, 22 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[dreman9999]

Thrombin wrote...

There is no logical reason to disbelieve the Catalyst because the Catalyst has nothing whatsoever to gain by lieing.

If the Catalyst wanted the Reapers to win and continue the cycle it would just have left Shepard to die and not sent the elevator to lift him to the crucible's controls. Even if you argue that the fleet could have won conventionally (highly unlikely) there's no way a race as arrogant in their power as the Reapers would ever have believed that.

Therefore, the only reason for the catalyst to send the elevator is if he wanted something different to the usual Reaper victory. There is no other logical explanation.

Now, if he wanted to use the Crucible for a particular result he could just as easily have let Shepard die and beam some indoctrinated human up to pick whatever option he wanted.

Admittedly, not control, as there's no point exercising control with someone already under control but, then, the Catalyst already controls the Reapers so I don't see what he gains there.

At the end of the day no other scenario makes sense. He must want to stop the Reaper destruction by activating the Crucible and he must be happy for Shepard to mAke that choice.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to see a reason to believe him when it makes no sense to me not to!

1. Of course, the catylyst has every reason to lie...You about to kill it and every reaper off. the choices it offers is an attempt to change you mind.
2.How do we even know anything in the last scene is real?
3.How do we not know that the catylist is not trying to contol Shepards mind?
4.The catylyst doesn't what to stop the reapers.

[stysiaq]

Thrombin wrote...

There is no logical reason to disbelieve the Catalyst because the Catalyst has nothing whatsoever to gain by lieing.

If the Catalyst wanted the Reapers to win and continue the cycle it would just have left Shepard to die and not sent the elevator to lift him to the crucible's controls. Even if you argue that the fleet could have won conventionally (highly unlikely) there's no way a race as arrogant in their power as the Reapers would ever have believed that.

Therefore, the only reason for the catalyst to send the elevator is if he wanted something different to the usual Reaper victory. There is no other logical explanation.

Now, if he wanted to use the Crucible for a particular result he could just as easily have let Shepard die and beam some indoctrinated human up to pick whatever option he wanted.

Admittedly, not control, as there's no point exercising control with someone already under control but, then, the Catalyst already controls the Reapers so I don't see what he gains there.

At the end of the day no other scenario makes sense. He must want to stop the Reaper destruction by activating the Crucible and he must be happy for Shepard to mAke that choice.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to see a reason to believe him when it makes no sense to me not to!

this. People just don't wan't to believe that Catalyst is real or honest.
But he is a deus ex machina. And deus ex machinae have few things in common, and absolute knowledge about the current situation and presenting it to the reader/protagonist is one of them.

In other thread Allan Shumacher speculated, that the Catalyst can be 'wrong' regarding Sheps death in Red Ending. I don't believe that. BioWare went full DEM, and failed doing it. They could'nt even write a DEM which actually has the sufficient knowledge of the things happening.

[Tony208]

varteral6162 wrote...

Star child synthetic theory gets hit from a minor character from ME1. anyone remember Citadel: signal trafficking assignment in ME1, the AI at the end of the assignment says: " organics will always seek to destroy or control all synthetic life".

So an optional 5 minute side quest vs. main story plotlines that prove his theory false.

Modifié par Tony208, 22 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[Graius]

SpaceBoy cannot have been entirely truthful. He makes the three following statements:

s1. Synthetics will inevitably destroy Organics;
s2. The Reapers are Synthetics;
s3. The Reapers are the solution to s1.

If s1 and s2 are true, then s3 is false, for obvious reasons.
If s2 and s3 are true, then s1 is false because there's no inevitability.
If s1 and s3 are true, then s2 is false because they can't be synthetics. But if that's the case, there's no reason why the Destroy ending has to destroy the Geth and/or EDI.

So even if he didn't actively lie, he certainly didn't tell the truth.

Modifié par Graius, 22 avril 2012 - 07:40 .

[AlexMBrennan]

In game: No. On the balance of probability, I'd say that Red is the best option (mainly because Saren and TIM were well aware of how to stop the Reapers schemes' - by committing suicide - but were made to think that going along with it was preferable)

Meta: The "Buy more DLC" message proves that it wasn't a trap as Shepard does stop the Reapers regardless of the choice of colour.
As for the singularity, and outcome of synthesis, you'll have to ask the writers.

[AlexMBrennan]

s1. Synthetics will inevitably destroy Organics;
s2. The Reapers are Synthetics;
s3. The Reapers are the solution to s1.

If s1 and s2 are true, then s3 is false, for obvious reasons.
If s2 and s3 are true, then s1 is false because there's no inevitability.
If s1 and s3 are true, then s2 is false because they can't be synthetics. But if that's the case, there's no reason why the Destroy ending has to destroy the Geth and/or EDI.

I'm not entirely sure if that's intentional deception, but you're relying on the ambiguity of s1 for your argument.

In reality, Godchild states that synthetics will inevitably destroy all life. As long as there is one make of synthetics that destroys all life, they are right. One make of synthetics not destroying all life proves nothing - to prove him wrong, you need to prove that none of the synthetics organics could possibly construct will destroy all life (good luck with that!)

P(x): synthetic race x destroys all life.
Guardian says that there is some x s.t. P(x) is true, i.e. that destroys all life. Then

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 22 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[Zolt51]

pistolols wrote...

Yeah but bottom line is it doesn't really make sense that the catalyst would be able to utilize the crucible's capabilities to serve his own desires.  Afterall, it was built by our homies, not by the reapers or anyone indoctrinated and Shepard knows that.  And the fact that the choices don't really appear to address his chaos problem is SOLID PROOF that he clearly has very little to do with them.  He's merely presenting the capabilities of the Crucible to us.

Only thing Shepard needs to trust is the crucible.  The catalyst' words are moot.

You've obviously hit the nail on the head although.. I find it strangely scary because whe know absolutely zero about the Crucible itself. One thing we can infer however is that the Protheans weren't great believers in "subtle"

[Thrombin]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What, specifically, should be believed? 

The entire point of the Catalyst and its choices is centered around a problem it presents to you. That problem does not exist. It is bull****. There's no reason for me to believe synthetic life is that much of a danger. 

So, I'd rather let the fleets kick the **** out of the Reapers and save everyone, than give in to what some hologaphic AI thing I've never met before that tells me it's the Reaper's overlord. 

The Catalyst's reasons for the Reapers' actions is irrelevant - what has to be believed is that the Catalyst is happy for the reaping to end and that the choices offered will achieve that. 

There is no other motive for sending the elevator and giving Shepard the choices at all.

It's all about motive. He has no motive to lie because any other option he wants can be achieved much more easily by letting Shepard die. Only an intention to stop the Reaping makes any sense as a reason to send the elevator.

Modifié par Thrombin, 22 avril 2012 - 08:58 .

[Thrombin]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Of course, the catylyst has every reason to lie...You about to kill it and every reaper off. the choices it offers is an attempt to change you mind.
2.How do we even know anything in the last scene is real?
3.How do we not know that the catylist is not trying to contol Shepards mind?
4.The catylyst doesn't what to stop the reapers.

Then why send the elevator and talk to Shepard at all?

If he doesn't want to stop the Reapers, sending the elevator and reviving Shepard makes no sense!

[Icinix]

Thrombin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Of course, the catylyst has every reason to lie...You about to kill it and every reaper off. the choices it offers is an attempt to change you mind.
2.How do we even know anything in the last scene is real?
3.How do we not know that the catylist is not trying to contol Shepards mind?
4.The catylyst doesn't what to stop the reapers.

Then why send the elevator and talk to Shepard at all?

If he doesn't want to stop the Reapers, sending the elevator and reviving Shepard makes no sense!

Sense? Sense went out the ending before you ever really hit the StarChild - by that stage they're commited to non-sensical scenes and dialogue.

[Sil]

To be honest, when I played through the ending I took it that the Starchild was basically programmed to believe a certain kind of viewpoint regardless of whether or not it was actually true. I didn't take what it said as the truth, but rather, what it believed to be the truth.

The ending was still ****e though.

[Humakt83]

Icinix wrote...

Sense? Sense went out the ending before you ever really hit the StarChild - by that stage they're commited to non-sensical scenes and dialogue.

Dreams seldom make sense either.

[dreman9999]

Thrombin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Of course, the catylyst has every reason to lie...You about to kill it and every reaper off. the choices it offers is an attempt to change you mind.
2.How do we even know anything in the last scene is real?
3.How do we not know that the catylist is not trying to contol Shepards mind?
4.The catylyst doesn't what to stop the reapers.

Then why send the elevator and talk to Shepard at all?

If he doesn't want to stop the Reapers, sending the elevator and reviving Shepard makes no sense!

2.How do we even know anything in the last scene is real? 

[Thrombin]

dreman9999 wrote...


2.How do we even know anything in the last scene is real? 

How do I know you're real? 

The question is irrelevant to this thread though. The thread asks how do we know the Catalyst isn't lieing. If none of it is real then that question is meaningless as there is no Catalyst. You have to assume he's real to answer the question and Shepard has to assume it's real as he has nothing else to go on but the evidence of his senses. To deny them is to give way to madness.

[Shaoken]

Has anyone noticed that the Reapers are incredibly honest when you talk to them? Soveriegn told you the complete truth, even giving you facts you would have had no way of guessing at later, even though it was actually detremental to his cause and he could have easily just hung up on you.

Ditto with Harbinger, he didn't bother lying to you at the end of Arrival at all. I think maybe they're just an honest race, willing to use misdirection and indirect deception but incapable of outright lying to people's faces. They may be omnicidal starfish space-monsters, but at least they're honest about it.