352 réponses à ce sujet

[Thrombin]

I think their honesty is born of arrogance. They don't believe anyone can stop them so they have no reason to hide the truth. I personally don't think it makes sense for an AI to be incapable of lying. I could write program today that could lie all the time or could lie based on specific criteria. There's nothing inherent about the act of lying that is incompatible with machine intelligence.

[Xellith]

EDI can lie.

[Capthon]

Why do you lie?
To cover your actions, to hide your true intents ... to give you an advantage over your enemy.

So it's only logical that an AI would "lie".
It's called tactic.

[Dormiglione]

Just my opinion.

I think that starchild doesnt tell you the full truth. He says that he controls the reaper. I dont believe that. maybe he was the one who initated all, programmed the reapers, helped to build whatever, but they went through their own evolution and the reapers are artificial intelligence. They prove it through their arrogance attidute.
If the star child has the reaper under his control, why should he send the elevator to shepard and offer him all the options? The red option should destroy also the star child, so why?
Does the star child want to die?

I think that the reapers are out of control. They are free of doing their cycles how they want. But if the reaper are A.I. what is the motivation to "farm organic life". There is no higher sense behind this behavior. So who is really behind the reapers?

A lot of plot-holes. The starchild and the endings make no sense. Even an ending where the universe lost the fight against the reaper, where the survivors fled into Exile through a portal, destryoing it after the passage, would have been a better ending.

Modifié par Dormiglione, 23 avril 2012 - 11:07 .

[Xellith]

Indoctrination Theory *crosses fingers* PLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZPLZ

[JShepppp]

 I've created a few threads about this. OP, you've commented on them, so this might be a repeat for you. But I'd like to note a few things for this thread:

1. Pretty much everyone disagrees with the Catalyst in some form - if they agree with its logic rather than just respect it, then they disagree with its methods. Anyone who fires the Crucible implicitly disagrees with it; even Synthesis is saying that the Catalyst's methods are "wrong" even if its ideas aren't.

2. The Catalyst is trying to stop the technological singularity, which is itself more of a thought exercise or philosophical thing than anything. By its nature, it is difficult to prove/disprove with facts because we have none. Our data covers two cycles plus maybe more with the Prothean VI. Over a billion years, there have been approx 20 000 cycles. We aren't statistically significant in what we see. 

3. The truth may be irrelevant because (a) the Reapers have the power to influence their views on us anyways, and ( by the time Shepard makes it to the Catalyst, Shepard ironically has all the power in the argument. 

The idea that the singularity hasn't been reached yet and/or the presence of organic life indicates the Catalyst isn't right (i.e. that if it had seen what it says happen before, organics would be wiped out) is problematic because the Catalyst is a machine whose idea of time is essentially infinite and therefore it probably sees probabilities, even small ones, as being realized in the long run. This has been pointed out in the thread and wiped aside as a logical fallacy, which it probably is to us. But if you take time out of the equation things turn in its favor, and it's probably making a normative assumption of sorts that time is irrelevant and only the outcome is what matters (whereas organics always know there is inevitable death, i.e. by nature/old age usually, and this, along with the need to reproduce, fuels our perspectives; the Catalyst/Reapers' prime goal is to stop the singularity and not reproduce and they don't have to worry about time).  

I personally think we can't determine the truth either way and that this is both a strength and weakness of the Catalyst.

[Numara]

Starchild says: -Destroy will kill every sintetic life including Shep... BUT
EDI and Shepard can survive in the RED ending... just saying...

Starchild says: Sintetics will always rebel agains organics... NEEE , Geth and quarians are working together to rebuild ranoch also Geth stated they never wanted to fight with the creators.. Quarians started the war.
2 lies here so far...
Even if star child intention is not to lie, he lies, why? beacuse he is using Reapers logic to convince Shep that They (Reapers) are right and ofc they are scared "I know you thought about killing us" OFC HE/SHE did since the 1st ME. But w8 here 2 options for u Shep 1. Sintesis... remember Saren? how Shepard was totally against the whole sintesis thing, remember how many times Shepards says species must keep their individuality---- Ok so 2. Control.... Really?XD 1 min ago you told TIM he was wrong and now ur telling me Shep is willing to controll em? The child ( REapers) are desperate, Shepard is the 1st organic that made it that far, if they have to lie to him to survive they will

[The Night Mammoth]

Thrombin wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What, specifically, should be believed? 

The entire point of the Catalyst and its choices is centered around a problem it presents to you. That problem does not exist. It is bull****. There's no reason for me to believe synthetic life is that much of a danger. 

So, I'd rather let the fleets kick the **** out of the Reapers and save everyone, than give in to what some hologaphic AI thing I've never met before that tells me it's the Reaper's overlord. 

The Catalyst's reasons for the Reapers' actions is irrelevant - what has to be believed is that the Catalyst is happy for the reaping to end and that the choices offered will achieve that. 

There is no other motive for sending the elevator and giving Shepard the choices at all.

It's all about motive. He has no motive to lie because any other option he wants can be achieved much more easily by letting Shepard die. Only an intention to stop the Reaping makes any sense as a reason to send the elevator.

I never said it was lying, I asked why I should believe it, agree with it. It may think what it says is true, but there's no reason for me to believe the same.

Ignoring that everything about the Catalyst seems inherently deceptive, you are presented with a set of choice between three doors. This choice is made on what the Catalyst tells you. It's giving you this chance to deal with its problem. Damn right you should believe it. 

Problem: it's dilemna does not exist. Screw 'technological singularity', that's not what it's talking about. Nothing I've seen in this game or the extended universe provides even a nugget of fact to prove it might be right. I'd rather die and let the fleet kick the **** out of the Reapers above Earth that choose any of its options, when not a single one makes a bit of sense, attempts (and fails if its problem is actually real) to solve a problem that does not exist, with largely negative consequences. 

[Thrombin]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I never said it was lying, I asked why I should believe it, agree with it. It may think what it says is true, but there's no reason for me to believe the same.

Ignoring that everything about the Catalyst seems inherently deceptive, you are presented with a set of choice between three doors. This choice is made on what the Catalyst tells you. It's giving you this chance to deal with its problem. Damn right you should believe it. 

Problem: it's dilemna does not exist. Screw 'technological singularity', that's not what it's talking about. Nothing I've seen in this game or the extended universe provides even a nugget of fact to prove it might be right. I'd rather die and let the fleet kick the **** out of the Reapers above Earth that choose any of its options, when not a single one makes a bit of sense, attempts (and fails if its problem is actually real) to solve a problem that does not exist, with largely negative consequences. 

That's missing the point though. Whatever his reasons for creating the Reapers it is now self-evident that all three choices will stop the Reapers. Given that conventional victory is pretty much impossible, choosing to let the fleet battle on instead is no solution at all. 

[gert56nom]

during the brief conversaton with starkid , shepard says they'd rather keep there own form than be remembered as a reaper.
Starkid replies "YOU CAN'T"

But then offeres choices were you can ,

there you have it a clear contradictory fact

[Thrombin]

Numara wrote...

Shepard is the 1st organic that made it that far, if they have to lie to him to survive they will

But they don't have to lie to survive. That's the point. All the Catalyst needs to do to ensure Reaper victory and it's own survival is to let Shepard die and not send the elevator at all.

The only reason to send the elevator is to let Shepard stop the Reapers. Also, with respect to the options, would Shepard assume that shooting a power conduit would destroy the Reapers if the Catalyst hadn't said so? If there was no Catalyst would Shepard have any reason to shoot up the Citadel infrastructure or throw himself into a beam of light? Without the Catalyst he would have just wandered over to Control and taken hold of the console to see what would happen!

[The Night Mammoth]

Thrombin wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I never said it was lying, I asked why I should believe it, agree with it. It may think what it says is true, but there's no reason for me to believe the same.

Ignoring that everything about the Catalyst seems inherently deceptive, you are presented with a set of choice between three doors. This choice is made on what the Catalyst tells you. It's giving you this chance to deal with its problem. Damn right you should believe it. 

Problem: it's dilemna does not exist. Screw 'technological singularity', that's not what it's talking about. Nothing I've seen in this game or the extended universe provides even a nugget of fact to prove it might be right. I'd rather die and let the fleet kick the **** out of the Reapers above Earth that choose any of its options, when not a single one makes a bit of sense, attempts (and fails if its problem is actually real) to solve a problem that does not exist, with largely negative consequences. 

That's missing the point though. Whatever his reasons for creating the Reapers it is now self-evident that all three choices will stop the Reapers.

What is the point then? How do you know it created the Reapers? My point is different. You're asked to make a choice based on what the Catalyst says, its problem. Nothing it says has a bit of credibility. 

What it says may be the truth TO IT, but not to me. I'm not saying it's trying to mislead you deliberatly. 

As for if they stop the Reapers, that's debatable. Control might, Destroy does, Synthesis is ambiguous to the point of stupidity. I'd never choose anything but Fight and Destroy, the only two that actually do visibly anything about the Reapers in the long term.

Given that conventional victory is pretty much impossible, choosing to let the fleet battle on instead is no solution at all. 

Only if you're stuck in mind-set that it is impossible. 

For me, it's a very real solution. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 23 avril 2012 - 12:30 .

[Numara]

Thrombin the fact the child gives Shep the red choice its because if he just tells shep blue and green, shepard would now something its wrong, i mean the galaxy build the crucible ( a weapon to destroy reapers) and ur telling me theres no way i can use it to kill reapers? Child is trying to convince Shep to use the crucible the other 2 ways, telling him is the best for all, and painting the destruction as the worst thing ever. And about why he sent the elevator, im not an expert in Reapers psico but im guessing Reapers just wanted another victory, conkers Shepards will, beacuse its true they dont need shep no make a choice just kill every fleet near the crucible and beam the crucible too to ensure noone will fire it, (thing that happens if sheps doesnt make a choice) but if they can use Shepard to do green or blue, things he/she always was against, you can say Reapers GOT a BIG victory

[dreman9999]

Numara wrote...

Thrombin the fact the child gives Shep the red choice its because if he just tells shep blue and green, shepard would now something its wrong, i mean the galaxy build the crucible ( a weapon to destroy reapers) and ur telling me theres no way i can use it to kill reapers? Child is trying to convince Shep to use the crucible the other 2 ways, telling him is the best for all, and painting the destruction as the worst thing ever. And about why he sent the elevator, im not an expert in Reapers psico but im guessing Reapers just wanted another victory, conkers Shepards will, beacuse its true they dont need shep no make a choice just kill every fleet near the crucible and beam the crucible too to ensure noone will fire it, (thing that happens if sheps doesnt make a choice) but if they can use Shepard to do green or blue, things he/she always was against, you can say Reapers GOT a BIG victory

You didn't notice that the Star child didn't realy offer destory to you? You were going to do it anyway reguardless of whether you met the star kid or not. The star kid only offered it just to try to show control over the event when he realy was not in control.
When ever you say the star child offer destory, remeber the fact that you were going to do that anyway.

[MaxMcKay]

Jagri wrote...

Of course he isn't lying! He generally and honestly wants to stop the cycle *Snicker*

Now go choice one of the fellowing methods to die!

1) Becoming a grounding point.
2) Fall to your death.
3) Walk into a explosion.

Ignore that voice in your head suggesting it would be more logical to find a control panel with buttons.

great thought!  why kill yourself when you can pull the darn plug on the kid

[Dormiglione]

Thrombin wrote...

But they don't have to lie to survive. That's the point. All the Catalyst needs to do to ensure Reaper victory and it's own survival is to let Shepard die and not send the elevator at all.

The only reason to send the elevator is to let Shepard stop the Reapers.

But why does Starchild need Shepard to stop the reapers? The starchild said that he "controls the reapers". If thats true, then why should he send the elevetor to Shepard.
The Starchild could simply stop the reapers, if he would really have control over them? Or not?

[Thrombin]

Ok, from the point of view of Shepard's decision making it is possible that some of what the Catalyst says could be erroneous or deliberate lies. It could be that the Catalyst didn't create the Reapers and it could be that it is mistaken as to the efficacy of the three options.
 
The problem is that the idea that conventional victory is impossible is not just a mind-set. It is a product of incontrovertible evidence. The Reapers have torn through the Galaxy's defences like tissue paper. Even with the final scenes of the massed fleets I didn't see a single Reaper take more than a scratch. In terms of dialogue it is clear that everyone is convinced that the Crucible is the Galaxy's only hope of defeating the Reapers. Any Shepard that thinks the fleets can beat the Reapers without the Crucible is, to put it frankly, living in cloud cuckoo land.
 
Now, if we assume that leaving Shepard to die would result in inevitable victory for the Reapers then, regardless of who or what the Catalyst is, his motives have to be something different to total victory for the Reapers. Which means anything it suggests, has to be better than the alternative of doing nothing.
 
Now the Destroy and Synthesis options would never have occurred to Shepard without those being pointed out so to suggest that they are only mentioned as misdirection makes no sense. No way would Shepard have just randomly shot a power conduit thinking it would destroy the Reapers so the Catalyst had nothing to gain by mentioning that option if it didn't want it to happen. If it specifically wanted one of the other options to be chosen then it could just as easily have had Shepard die and got an indoctrinated human up to the Citadel to activate whichever option it wanted.
 
So, I disagree that the Catalyst lacks credibility. In all likelihood it is an immortal intelligence with intimate knowledge of the Reapers and millions of years of advanced technology. No other creature is more likely to have the knowledge of how to stop the Reapers and, given that it went to the trouble of saving Shepard, the only reasonable assumption is that it wants to stop the Reapers. In my opinion, not following the Catalyst's advice is the non-credible option.
 
Regards
 
Julian

[Thrombin]

Dormiglione wrote...

Thrombin wrote...

But they don't have to lie to survive. That's the point. All the Catalyst needs to do to ensure Reaper victory and it's own survival is to let Shepard die and not send the elevator at all.

The only reason to send the elevator is to let Shepard stop the Reapers.

But why does Starchild need Shepard to stop the reapers? The starchild said that he "controls the reapers". If thats true, then why should he send the elevetor to Shepard.
The Starchild could simply stop the reapers, if he would really have control over them? Or not?

That's one thing that never made sense to me either. That's just something I file under 'plot hole'!

[nycmode75]

My biggest question is - who cares if he's telling the truth or not, the question is why have Shepard be the one who decides on galactic rape, destruction or slavery?? Why him??

[Thrombin]

I've never had a problem with Control. Is it slavery for a soldier to obey his commander? Is it slavery for a computer to obey the commands of its operator? That's really all I see Control as. Shepard takes over command of the Reapers from the Catalyst.

Now genocide or violation of everyone's physical and genetic makeup is another story. I never really saw the choices as much of a choice. Control was just obviously the best.

[Numara]

cotrol cant be the best... because Sheps dies controllling Reapers so ¿how much do you think Shepards controll will last if he/she is dead?

[Hyperion II]

I can prove he is very, very wrong.
I befriended a Geth, United the Geth and Quarians, and helped to build a relationship between EDI and Joker.
So much for his "Organics and Synthetics will always kill each other," Bullsh!t
Or just read this.

[pistolols]

KingZayd wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Calamity wrote...

pistolols wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

The rest of us are unwilling to risk the fate of all the advanced races in the galaxy on the slim possibility that the Starchild is be telling the truth

Yeah but bottom line is it doesn't really make sense that the catalyst would be able to utilize the crucible's capabilities to serve his own desires.  Afterall, it was built by our homies, not by the reapers or anyone indoctrinated and Shepard knows that.  And the fact that the choices don't really appear to address his chaos problem is SOLID PROOF that he clearly has very little to do with them.  He's merely presenting the capabilities of the Crucible to us.

Only thing Shepard needs to trust is the crucible.  The catalyst' words are moot.

But nobody knows where/who the design for the crucible came from.

We know it was designed collaboratively through the ages by people fighting the reapers.

Because one cycle decided that a feature that doesn't affect the reapers at all (synthesis) was the best addition to an anti-reaper weapon? yeah that makes perfect sense.

lol maybe when you word it like that.... but that's because synthesis isn't an anti-reaper action.  It's a goofy casey hudson peace-with-reapers action.

[Numara]

1 question for everybody: If the EC can prove that with high EMS + RED ending= Shep EDI geth alive, Reapers dead and minimal damage to the galaxy.... Would you still considering Blue or green options?
I dont think so... The only thing that can prevent Shepard or players to choose RED its what if i kill more ppl than i will save? that its exactly what the kid its trying to make shepard Believe, and that doesnt mean he is lying, that means the KID does believe that is What would happen.
So 1 thing is What KID believes and its trying to convice Shepard to think like him, and other thing its what will really happen after Shepard choice.

[DLClol]

Hes not lying.

If he was lying that would mean hes concerned about the reapers well being and wants to protect them.

If this was the case then Star Kid would have killed Shepard the second he saw him/her. Shot him/her into space, reapers win organics die. Yahg are next /end

The fact he gives you the choice to destroy his creations is proof hes not lying.

Tldr: Hes a God character he dosen't need to lie to some pathetic human, he could kill him/her if he wanted to.

Modifié par DLClol, 23 avril 2012 - 05:07 .