352 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The point is, it has never occured and will never occur. The Catalyst is basing everything on assumptions and self-fulfilling prophecies.

Won't it? None of us can see the future. The odds merely get more and more in his favor on a long enough timeline.
It's not fair at all of course - but being a machine, he wouldn't care about that either.

It will never occur because it's an impossibility, even if he's right. Which he isn't.
I can use time to justify anything. Given enough time, humans will develop a machine that destroys the universe, so let's wipe out all humans now to be on the safe side.

[Meltemph]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The point is, it has never occured and will never occur. The Catalyst is basing everything on assumptions and self-fulfilling prophecies.

Won't it? None of us can see the future. The odds merely get more and more in his favor on a long enough timeline.
It's not fair at all of course - but being a machine, he wouldn't care about that either.

The event has had to have occured for there to be an ability to factor in probability, like that.  Since it has not happen yet, it is them just believing it will happen, just in the same way people believe in multiverses.  Hell, with what they are doing, they might as well say a god/4-dimensionale being is eventually coming to this galaxy to wipe out all organic life, since both are just as non-falsifiable as teh other.

[dreman9999]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Galaxy dies if you believe his idiocy, have fun there.

Wrong, there's a chance the galaxy dies.

Either you do nothing and it dies.

You believe him and he's lying and it dies.

You believe him and he's telling the truth and it lives.

[Shaoken]

I wouldn't say he's lying, just that he's become convinced that something is true, so he never took the time to try and see if he was wrong. Most people who become convinced that something they believe is true are resiliant to arguments against it, even arguments that objectively proove that what they believe is wrong.

Now if you're asking is he beng honest about the endings? Well, yeah. The destroy ending does destroy the Reapers and most synthetics. The control ending shows the Reaper's flying off. The synthetsis ending shows Joker with an iPad in his arm and his eyes green.

If you're asking, can you prove it before committing? No. Even if Starchild had the time to explain exactly how each of the three options worked, it's unlikely Shepard would have the knowledge to fact-check all three. It'd still be amusing to see.

Starchild: *lengthy explanation of how the synthetsis ending works*
Shepard: ...okay....
Starchild: You didn't understand any of that did you?

[Clayless]

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

He said the Crucible changed him. Also see above.

[PsyrenY]

Meltemph wrote...

The event has had to have occured for there to be an ability to factor in probability, like that.

And it did - people have developed AI, and hostile AI at that, such as the gambling machine AI in our own cycle. It wasn't around long, but the fact is that "organics creating AI that wishes harm to organics" is a real possibility.

The Angry One wrote...

It will never occur because it's an impossibility, even if he's right. Which he isn't.
I can use time to justify anything. Given enough time, humans will develop a machine that destroys the universe, so let's wipe out all humans now to be on the safe side.

Right - that's exactly what he's doing. "Humans" won't be around long enough to do that.  "Organic Life" will continue, but not any specific race/species.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[HellishFiend]

Jagri wrote...

Of course he isn't lying! He generally and honestly wants to stop the cycle *Snicker*

Now go choice one of the fellowing methods to die!

1) Becoming a grounding point.
2) Fall to your death.
3) Walk into a explosion.

Ignore that voice in your head suggesting it would be more logical to find a control panel with buttons.

I choose number 2.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 19 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Brockxz]

Well noone can prove and that was the frist reason (aside from the stupidity that there is some kind of starchild in the ending) why I hate ending. After listening to him I was "really and know you want to make me believe every word you said and make 3 terrible choices". I just couldn't make myself to believe anything he says. He jsut appeared out of nowhere. I don't know who he is and for all I care, it could be that I'm start to halucinate or whatever because i'm deadly injured. You know, I was hit by reaper beam just few minutes away.

[Shaoken]

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

To be fair they've never actually lied to people; Soveriegn never promised Saren he'd spare the Turians, he just let him operate under that assumption. Hell Soveriegn seemed pretty keen to explain quite a few things to you instead of just hanging up on you on Vimire.

Also the crucible gives you the solution on how to deal with them, Starchild's just providing the minimial amount of exposition to how it all works.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The point is, it has never occured and will never occur. The Catalyst is basing everything on assumptions and self-fulfilling prophecies.

Won't it? None of us can see the future. The odds merely get more and more in his favor on a long enough timeline.
It's not fair at all of course - but being a machine, he wouldn't care about that either.

It will never occur because it's an impossibility, even if he's right. Which he isn't.
I can use time to justify anything. Given enough time, humans will develop a machine that destroys the universe, so let's wipe out all humans now to be on the safe side.

Agein, you are finite...You won't and can't know if it did, didn't, will or will not happen. You're not onipitant, you don't have all the facts to prove it, you don have any facts to pove it, and you don't have any reason to why it can't happen.
You just can't say it won't happen.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[dreman9999]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

He said the Crucible changed him. Also see above.

Again....as stated as the question of theis topic....How do we know the star child, who is from 
a race of machines with a history of incredible deception, is telling the truth?

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 07:21 .

[count_4]

The Angry One wrote...
The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

This disproves nothing. I have never been hit by lightning, does that mean I can mindlessly walk around in a thunderstorm?

StarBrat is talking utter crap and the fact you stated debunks everything he says as an assumption. Doesn't mean it can't happen (a.k.a. nothing is disproved). 

Modifié par count_4, 19 avril 2012 - 07:23 .

[dreman9999]

Shaoken wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

To be fair they've never actually lied to people; Soveriegn never promised Saren he'd spare the Turians, he just let him operate under that assumption. Hell Soveriegn seemed pretty keen to explain quite a few things to you instead of just hanging up on you on Vimire.

Also the crucible gives you the solution on how to deal with them, Starchild's just providing the minimial amount of exposition to how it all works.

...They never lied to people? Did you miss the statement that the mass relays are traps, indoctrination, and not play the arrival dlc? They have a massive histroy of deception.

[Meltemph]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The event has had to have occured for there to be an ability to factor in probability, like that.

And it did - people have developed AI, and hostile AI at that, such as the gambling machine AI in our own cycle. It wasn't around long, but the fact is that "organics creating AI that wishes harm to organics" is a real possibility.

His premise isnt that AI's wish to "harm" organics, his premise is that synthetics will ALWAYS destroy the creator, also, that they will destroy all organic life.  

His 1st point ignores evolution and essentially says, all organics will think the same to an extent, and will create synthetics improperly and will destroy them, which is insane.  To claim to be able to predict evolution, no matter how old you are...is idiotic.  And since all life has not been destroyed, well then their premise hasnt happened yet, so they believe the equivalent, that there may eventually be a race that likes to dress up as clowns and go and destroy the galaxy or that there will be a race(like the Rachni) that will eventually destroy all life.  

I mean seriously, with derp logic like the reapers, you could justify anything in your head.

[dreman9999]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Galaxy dies if you believe his idiocy, have fun there.

Wrong, there's a chance the galaxy dies.

Either you do nothing and it dies.

You believe him and he's lying and it dies.

You believe him and he's telling the truth and it lives.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception...

[Meltemph]

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

He said the Crucible changed him. Also see above.

Again....as stated as the question of theis topic....How do we know the star child, who is from 
a race of machines with a history of incredible deception, is telling the truth?

I can say without any worries, that nothing will ever bable to destroy all organic life...  That would mean something will have the power to stop evolution.  >.>  Unless they are a literally god, that aint gana happen.

[OhoniX]

My problem with how everyone is taking the starkid is the fact that so many people are willing to think everything he states is fact.
The thing about it is that there is nothing to show he is telling the truth at all. He give no proof that we can control the reapers, and no proof that sythisis they way he says will happen can happen or what it really is. He just say some based less vague statements with no real explinations that is countered by everyhting stated about them before...This usually happens when someone is lieing...

It doesn't actually matter. From a meta-perspective, we know he's telling the truth. Everythig he says will happen, happens. From an in-game perspective, Shep can't know for sure that he's telling the truth, but it really doesn't matter, because she has to do something. She can choose to believe him, and use what he says to help decide which path to take, Or she can disbelieve him and just pick one at random (since other than believing him there's no clue what each will do), but either way she has to do SOMETHING because doing something, anything, with the Crucible is the ONLY option for saving humanity.

He may be right, he may be wrong, he may be lying, your options don't actually change regardless, so why worry about which it is?

[Peranor]

Starbrat is a blight, a cancer on the Mass Effect franchise and needs to be retconned ASAP. Every word that genocidal space ghost utters makes me sick.
How BioWare could possibly think that it was a good idea to put that atrocity in the game I will never understand.

[Elyiia]

Given enough time, anything will happen. Technically Star-Jar is right but it doesn't stop his solution from being any less dumb.

Modifié par Elyiia, 19 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[Meltemph]

Everythig he says will happen, happens.

We infer what he said happens, because we see reapers fly away and then the credits roll, but we actually dont know what the writers intentions were with each ending.

[Shaoken]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shaoken wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

To be fair they've never actually lied to people; Soveriegn never promised Saren he'd spare the Turians, he just let him operate under that assumption. Hell Soveriegn seemed pretty keen to explain quite a few things to you instead of just hanging up on you on Vimire.

Also the crucible gives you the solution on how to deal with them, Starchild's just providing the minimial amount of exposition to how it all works.

...They never lied to people? Did you miss the statement that the mass relays are traps, indoctrination, and not play the arrival dlc? They have a massive histroy of deception.

There's a difference between a lie and deception. The Reaper's never said "Hey, these relays are our gift to you andwe have no ulterior motives for giving them to you." Hence they never lied; they simply let the races make their own assumptions about the relays.

At every point where they've actually spoken, they've never said something that was untrue.

[Siegdrifa]

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

[Clayless]

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Galaxy dies if you believe his idiocy, have fun there.

Wrong, there's a chance the galaxy dies.

Either you do nothing and it dies.

You believe him and he's lying and it dies.

You believe him and he's telling the truth and it lives.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception...

He said the Crucible changed him.

You're asking an unanswerable question, and it's the wrong one, what you're supposed to ask is "What happens if he's lying and what happens if he's telling the truth?"

Like I said, if you don't believe him everyone dies, if he's lying everyone dies, if he's telling the truth you save the galaxy.

In hindsight it turns out he was telling the truth. But before then? My next door neighbours cat is called Oliver. Prove that I'm telling the truth.

[dreman9999]

Meltemph wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

He said the Crucible changed him. Also see above.

Again....as stated as the question of theis topic....How do we know the star child, who is from 
a race of machines with a history of incredible deception, is telling the truth?

I can say without any worries, that nothing will ever bable to destroy all organic life...  That would mean something will have the power to stop evolution.  >.>  Unless they are a literally god, that aint gana happen.

And I can say with out worries we are too finite to make that assumption. We beings who are just starting to understand the universe can't say anything definete about current stated being permanent. We only been in exsistence for a micro second compeard to the rest of the universe. We can't say that life will find away....Just that life will always try to find a way to live.