352 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Galaxy dies if you believe his idiocy, have fun there.

Wrong, there's a chance the galaxy dies.

Either you do nothing and it dies.

You believe him and he's lying and it dies.

You believe him and he's telling the truth and it lives.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception...

He said the Crucible changed him.

You're asking an unanswerable question, and it's the wrong one, what you're supposed to ask is "What happens if he's lying and what happens if he's telling the truth?"

Like I said, if you don't believe him everyone dies, if he's lying everyone dies, if he's telling the truth you save the galaxy.

In hindsight it turns out he was telling the truth. But before then? My next door neighbours cat is called Oliver. Prove that I'm telling the truth.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception..
How do we know he is telling us the truth?
Can you prove that he is telling the truth?

[Elyiia]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

They can lie, EDI mentions something about being able to lie after you remove her shackles.

[Ariq]

dreman9999 wrote...

 My problem with how everyone is taking the starkid is the fact that so many people are willing to think everything he states is fact.

There's a lot of people who think the entire scene is a delusion. You can't claim everyone takes Starchild at his word given the number who are uncertain he even exists.

Another thing is the fact  that the star child  doesn't  anything new to the arguement, he just reused what other reapers have stated. 

I'm not sure what you're on about here. Neither Harbinger nor Sovereign ever mentioned anything about the inevitability of synthetics committing genocide against all organic races. Well, other than the inevitability of the genocide they intended to inact, that is, but they certainly never claimed to be protecting organics from some other synthetic boogeymen.

Is the star kid telling the truth and is there proof?

I don't trust him. There is no proof. I don't think there's any good reason to think he's telling the truth without resorting to meta-analysis of developer intentions and second guessing the way they played out the narrative.

Modifié par Ariq, 19 avril 2012 - 07:36 .

[Meltemph]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Galaxy dies if you believe his idiocy, have fun there.

Wrong, there's a chance the galaxy dies.

Either you do nothing and it dies.

You believe him and he's lying and it dies.

You believe him and he's telling the truth and it lives.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception...

He said the Crucible changed him.

You're asking an unanswerable question, and it's the wrong one, what you're supposed to ask is "What happens if he's lying and what happens if he's telling the truth?"

Like I said, if you don't believe him everyone dies, if he's lying everyone dies, if he's telling the truth you save the galaxy.

In hindsight it turns out he was telling the truth. But before then? My next door neighbours cat is called Oliver. Prove that I'm telling the truth.

He isnt right...So there is no worries there.  Now all you have to decide is if the starbrat was created by an idiot or by some psychopath.  The only thing we KNOW he was right about is that the destroy otion destroys the reapers, the blue option makes them stop attacking, and the synthesis ending, the reapers stop attacking, and peopel ahve green eyes.

That is all we know.

[Clayless]

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

He said the Crucible changed him.

You're asking an unanswerable question, and it's the wrong one, what you're supposed to ask is "What happens if he's lying and what happens if he's telling the truth?"

Like I said, if you don't believe him everyone dies, if he's lying everyone dies, if he's telling the truth you save the galaxy.

In hindsight it turns out he was telling the truth. But before then? My next door neighbours cat is called Oliver. Prove that I'm telling the truth.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception..
How do we know he is telling us the truth?
Can you prove that he is telling the truth?

Actually respond to my post that you quoted, don't just ignore it if you're going to quote it.

[dreman9999]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

....No. God no. In ME1 , You meet an AI that tries to decive everyone into thinking it's a harmless VI.  In ME3,you find out EDI lies to the refiting team, tell them she is a VI. On rennock,Legion Lies to you 3 times.....Then there everything the reaper did to trick organics.....AI's can lie. The only time they can't is if they have a shackle program that forces them to tell the truth.

[Meltemph]

dreman9999 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

He said the Crucible changed him. Also see above.

Again....as stated as the question of theis topic....How do we know the star child, who is from 
a race of machines with a history of incredible deception, is telling the truth?

I can say without any worries, that nothing will ever bable to destroy all organic life...  That would mean something will have the power to stop evolution.  >.>  Unless they are a literally god, that aint gana happen.

And I can say with out worries we are too finite to make that assumption. We beings who are just starting to understand the universe can't say anything definete about current stated being permanent. We only been in exsistence for a micro second compeard to the rest of the universe. We can't say that life will find away....Just that life will always try to find a way to live.

Huh? So you are saying evolution will stop happening?  We know for a fact that evolution breeds life, since we live, so why on earth would some synthetic be-able to stop evolution?  Also, with what you are arguing, there could be ninjazombie's running around killing everything with water, out of anger to fire.  I mean really if you think the intent of the writers was to ask the question, "who knows what could ahppen" that makes agreeign with the reapers even mroe pointless, since we dotn know what will happen.  I mean really, with that train of thought, why would anyone in their right mind think like the reapers, since nothing is knowable.

[dreman9999]

Ariq wrote...

I'm not sure what you're on about here. Neither Harbinger nor Sovereign ever mentioned anything about the inevitability of synthetics committing genocide against all organic races. Well, other than the inevitability of the genocide they intended to inact, that is, but they certainly never claimed to be protecting organics from some other synthetic boogeymen.

The reaper on rennoch being up the fact that sythetic will rebel ageinst organics.

[Hexi-decimal]

The Angry One wrote...

You can't, because his assertions are unprovable. He uses logical fallacies, assumptions and circular logic to justify it's psychopathic insanity.

The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

in this galaxy~

[Elyiia]

I'm going to say it again seeing as it seems I was buried under pyramids, given enough time everything will happen. He's technically correct but it doesn't mean it makes sense. The Reapers could simply let the organics be killed and then come in and wipe out the synthetics, organics would evolve again.

Synthetics have an even lower chance of being able to defend themselves against the Reapers than the organics would.

What's the purpose of "preserving" the organics anyway?

Modifié par Elyiia, 19 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[Siegdrifa]

Elyiia wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

They can lie, EDI mentions something about being able to lie after you remove her shackles.

They never lied ingame, and from what i remember, yhea, Shep is surprised and ask her the question if she can lie, and Shep seem surprise, because AI are not supposed to lie, it's not related to EDI only.

Also, lieyng is sayng something against what they know / think deliberatly, if they "rewrite" their code, to change it and call the "blue" color "red" it's not a lie, it's following what their code told them, this is why i said even if they don't lie it doesn't mean they are not wrong.

[Elyiia]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

They can lie, EDI mentions something about being able to lie after you remove her shackles.

They never lied ingame, and from what i remember, yhea, Shep is surprised and ask her the question if she can lie, and Shep seem surprise, because AI are not supposed to lie, it's not related to EDI only.

Also, lieyng is sayng something against what they know / think deliberatly, if they "rewrite" their code, to change it and call the "blue" color "red" it's not a lie, it's following what their code told them, this is why i said even if they don't lie it doesn't mean they are not wrong.

EDI told the Alliance refitters that she was a VI. There's more examples but I only need one for this point.

[Iconoclaste]

The Catalyst is using many words indicating he doesn't know the outcomes himself : maybe you can/ you can't. He is proposing solutions he "thinks" will do what he says, but everything is tainted with these "possible..." outcomes. He's not "lying" in that way, he's just not allowing debate on open issues from those "can, can't, maybe".

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 19 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[Siegdrifa]

dreman9999 wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

....No. God no. In ME1 , You meet an AI that tries to decive everyone into thinking it's a harmless VI.  In ME3,you find out EDI lies to the refiting team, tell them she is a VI. On rennock,Legion Lies to you 3 times.....Then there everything the reaper did to trick organics.....AI's can lie. The only time they can't is if they have a shackle program that forces them to tell the truth.

 EDI followed Jokers ideas no ? like when she is on the citadell with him. Nobody asked her "are you an AI instead of a VI" from what we know.
When we ask Legion why he has a piece of Shep armor, and he is not clearly telling all the story, but he refugee his logic on somthing still true "there was a hole". We could consider it a lie by omission, but we have yet to see an AI in denial.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 19 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[Iconoclaste]

And since the Reapers were never allowed to witness by themselves what they prevented from happening, they "can't" be lying about these issues, they are merely "limited" to their perspective, which happen to coincide with the organic's perspective, in a definite space and time. What may or may not happen elsewhere is irrelevant to them and to the organics targeted.

[dreman9999]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

He said the Crucible changed him.

You're asking an unanswerable question, and it's the wrong one, what you're supposed to ask is "What happens if he's lying and what happens if he's telling the truth?"

Like I said, if you don't believe him everyone dies, if he's lying everyone dies, if he's telling the truth you save the galaxy.

In hindsight it turns out he was telling the truth. But before then? My next door neighbours cat is called Oliver. Prove that I'm telling the truth.

Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception..
How do we know he is telling us the truth?
Can you prove that he is telling the truth?

Actually respond to my post that you quoted, don't just ignore it if you're going to quote it.

I read your responce...The fact remains is that you still are ingnoring the fact that the starchild may be lieing.
For one, think about the fact that reaper are the one to benifite the most by tricking you. They want to havest everyone but you want to destroy them.Getting you to not destroy them benifits them.
Second,They don't see what they are doing as killing everyone...There concept of being alive is vastly differnet then ours.
Third, They have no reason to help you at the end. You about to destory them. Why would they help you destory themselves.
FOURTH, You are the one that truely have the power in the scene, not them. You are about to destroy them, and at the last second they want to give you other options which are ones that don't lead to distruction?If you can destroy them, why listen to anything they have to say?Anything by defaut is just self perservation.
Fifth,Everyone else is not in the danger of dieing, they are.
Sixth,They have no proof to support there claim  that everything they say will happen, will happen.

....
So really, my point is you anwser, anwser nothing of what I stated or asking....I'm asking why we should beleive what they are saying, you say because they said so and they maybe right...Even though they have no proof and they have a history of deception.
I'm basicly say you have no arguement and your baseless. Their is not they are saying that will happen that has any ground.

So...
Again, he's from a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception..
How do we know he is telling us the truth?
Can you prove that he is telling the truth? 

To say he saying the truth because he maybe right, being that he is from a 
 a race of machines with a histroy of incridible deception and using no proof to support his ground is foolish.

[Siegdrifa]

Elyiia wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

They can lie, EDI mentions something about being able to lie after you remove her shackles.

They never lied ingame, and from what i remember, yhea, Shep is surprised and ask her the question if she can lie, and Shep seem surprise, because AI are not supposed to lie, it's not related to EDI only.

Also, lieyng is sayng something against what they know / think deliberatly, if they "rewrite" their code, to change it and call the "blue" color "red" it's not a lie, it's following what their code told them, this is why i said even if they don't lie it doesn't mean they are not wrong.

EDI told the Alliance refitters that she was a VI. There's more examples but I only need one for this point.

From what i remember we have no proof she denied being a AI, and like i said, i think anybody questionned her directly, some crew member had suspiscions.

The Geths in ME2 told us we they provided false information about a salarian godess, but they never claimed it was "true".

EDI fill the role of a VI in the normady because she do the tasks of a VI, it's true, so she could maintain this degree of knwoledge, the fact is she can do a lot more, like many people " on a job ", they fill the roll, but doesn't mean can't do "more".

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 19 avril 2012 - 08:06 .

[dreman9999]

Meltemph wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not meant to be debated, either you don't believe him and let the galaxy die, or you do believe him on the chance you'll save the galaxy.

If you don't believe him that's fine, have fun letting the galaxy die forever.

Yes it is meant to be debated. Really, a race of machines with a history of incredible deception is now telling you the truth and giving you a salution to how to deal with them?

He said the Crucible changed him. Also see above.

Again....as stated as the question of theis topic....How do we know the star child, who is from 
a race of machines with a history of incredible deception, is telling the truth?

I can say without any worries, that nothing will ever bable to destroy all organic life...  That would mean something will have the power to stop evolution.  >.>  Unless they are a literally god, that aint gana happen.

And I can say with out worries we are too finite to make that assumption. We beings who are just starting to understand the universe can't say anything definete about current stated being permanent. We only been in exsistence for a micro second compeard to the rest of the universe. We can't say that life will find away....Just that life will always try to find a way to live.

Huh? So you are saying evolution will stop happening?  We know for a fact that evolution breeds life, since we live, so why on earth would some synthetic be-able to stop evolution?  Also, with what you are arguing, there could be ninjazombie's running around killing everything with water, out of anger to fire.  I mean really if you think the intent of the writers was to ask the question, "who knows what could ahppen" that makes agreeign with the reapers even mroe pointless, since we dotn know what will happen.  I mean really, with that train of thought, why would anyone in their right mind think like the reapers, since nothing is knowable.

What I said was 
life will always try to find a way to live. This hint to the fact that evolution will always happen. But it also refer to the fact that it has it's limits. One day the galaxy will end and so will all life with it. We can eveolve to try to servive but we can't sevive everything.

[count_4]

dreman9999 wrote...
And I can say with out worries we are too finite to make that assumption. We beings who are just starting to understand the universe can't say anything definete about current stated being permanent. We only been in exsistence for a micro second compeard to the rest of the universe. We can't say that life will find away....Just that life will always try to find a way to live.

Don't need to understand the entire universe to know that a) Eradicating all organic life is pretty much impossible and Even if it weren't, organic matter and thus organic life will always arise again over time.

[dreman9999]

Siegdrifa wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Siegdrifa wrote...

Isn't it canon is ME that IA (unless exeption) don't lie ?
EDI never lied, Geths never lied. They can try to "change" the subject if they don't want to answer but they can't say "no i didn't to it" if they actualy did it.

But even if they doesn't lie, it doesn't mean they are not wrong, because AI " learn " and to learn from mistakes is the very basic of the learning process, wich could be called " self optimisation " for AI.

So, i do believe the star child believe what he said, but since he gave no reason to belive him, i can't believe him on words only.
Believe about something doesn't make it universally true.
It is common sens that believing into something make it true for us unless we are proved wrong, it's not a big deal, getting wrong is being part of sapient life, this is because we are wrong that we can go further, an AI also, in mass effect univers, go further.

They can lie, EDI mentions something about being able to lie after you remove her shackles.

They never lied ingame, and from what i remember, yhea, Shep is surprised and ask her the question if she can lie, and Shep seem surprise, because AI are not supposed to lie, it's not related to EDI only.

Also, lieyng is sayng something against what they know / think deliberatly, if they "rewrite" their code, to change it and call the "blue" color "red" it's not a lie, it's following what their code told them, this is why i said even if they don't lie it doesn't mean they are not wrong.

EDI told the Alliance refitters that she was a VI. There's more examples but I only need one for this point.

From what i remember we have no proof she denied being a AI, and like i said, i think anybody questionned her, some crew member had suspiscions, but nobody seemed to ask her directly.

The Geths in ME2 told us we they provided false information about a salarian godess, but they never claimed it was "true".

EDI fill the role of a VI in the normady because she do the task of a VI, it's true, so she could maintain this degree of knwoledge, the fact is she can do a lot more, like many people " on a job ", they fill the roll, but doesn't mean can't do "more".

The first conversation on the brigde with  the woman next to the star map make it clear the EDI comfems she can lie...Heck, every time she tries to mess with youprove she can lie.
And like I said before, Legion lies to you 3 times on rennock.
And EDI is not filling the role of a Vi during refitting because a VI is need, It's to hide her from the refiting crew so they won't desemble her.

[Elyiia]

Siegdrifa wrote...
From what i remember we have no proof she denied being a AI, and like i said, i think anybody questionned her directly, some crew member had suspiscions.

The Geths in ME2 told us we they provided false information about a salarian godess, but they never claimed it was "true".

EDI fill the role of a VI in the normady because she do the tasks of a VI, it's true, so she could maintain this degree of knwoledge, the fact is she can do a lot more, like many people " on a job ", they fill the roll, but doesn't mean can't do "more".

Misleading, or allowing someone to think somethat isn't true, is lying.

Modifié par Elyiia, 19 avril 2012 - 08:09 .

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

The Catalyst is using many words indicating he doesn't know the outcomes himself : maybe you can/ you can't. He is proposing solutions he "thinks" will do what he says, but everything is tainted with these "possible..." outcomes. He's not "lying" in that way, he's just not allowing debate on open issues from those "can, can't, maybe".

No....heIS Making it clear that he does know what will happen, especially with the control choice and the systhises choice.

[Meltemph]

^Well ya, but so is indoctrination.

[dreman9999]

count_4 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And I can say with out worries we are too finite to make that assumption. We beings who are just starting to understand the universe can't say anything definete about current stated being permanent. We only been in exsistence for a micro second compeard to the rest of the universe. We can't say that life will find away....Just that life will always try to find a way to live.

Don't need to understand the entire universe to know that a) Eradicating all organic life is pretty much impossible and Even if it weren't, organic matter and thus organic life will always arise again over time.

Again, we are finte...We don't know if it is or isn't possible...Also, reapers were taking about just the galexy not the universe.

[Meltemph]

dreman9999 wrote...

count_4 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
And I can say with out worries we are too finite to make that assumption. We beings who are just starting to understand the universe can't say anything definete about current stated being permanent. We only been in exsistence for a micro second compeard to the rest of the universe. We can't say that life will find away....Just that life will always try to find a way to live.

Don't need to understand the entire universe to know that a) Eradicating all organic life is pretty much impossible and Even if it weren't, organic matter and thus organic life will always arise again over time.

Again, we are finte...We don't know if it is or isn't possible...Also, reapers were taking about just the galexy not the universe.

The reapers are finite too.  They are snythetic, created.  They will have an end, as does all things in the universe.