352 réponses à ce sujet

[Unfallen_Satan]

Much of what the Catalyst says is either a matter of fact or interpretation. For example, the Reaper's sparing of less advanced species is a matter of history. Even the Protheans knew of the Asari and even the humans; there is no reasonable argument that the Reapers simply "missed" them during the Prothean cycle. Whether the Catalyst is really "presevering" extinguished races through Reaper construction is open to interpretation. There is no question the Reapers do employ certain organic material in their construction. Whether you think that constitutes "preservation through extinction" is up to you.

Other statements by the Catalyst become entangled by whether you believe the ending is real. I favor the "it's real" interpretation, though I honestly don't care, so everything it says about controlling the Reapers or destroying them with EDI comes to pass in the cinematics. Obviously if you believe it's all in Shepard's head, then perhaps none of it is real. In that case, maybe the Catalyst isn't even real, and the issue is moot.

I have not see any evidence of Reaper deception in the game. The current races, like the Protheans, found the Citadel and the Mass Relays. No one ever claimed what they are or isn't, least of all the Reapers. Indoctrination is not mind control through lies; Winston really does love Big Brother at the end of 1984. I am uncertain what transpires when Saren and TIM tries to resist the Reapers; they experience a change of heart, but the source of the apparent inner struggle is never explained.

I feel in many ways the Catalyst is like Satan. Outright lies are so boring. Some information is offered at face value. Others are mere possibilities. Much is hidden and presented in such a way that others interpret falsely, but it is still others' interpretation. The Catalyst has spoken, and you can believe whatever you want to believe.

As for why he says what other Reapers have said before? There is no distinction. All Reapers are mere avatars of the Catalyst's will. It is the Alpha and the Omega.

[dreman9999]

halbert986 wrote...

I like to think he's lying. But I doubt bioware would just sit on their hands through all this. Price drop, charities, petitions, everyone basically calling it the worst ending ever.

They're losing money. I applaud them if that doesn't matter and they've got something epic in store, but I find that really really hard to believe.

Extended cut...

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 01:47 .

[Biotic_Warlock]

"Would i lie to you?"

[PsyrenY]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Which is a hollow argument when there's nothing to prove it will other than base assumptions and the notion of infinite time. Eventually, the sun will engulf the Earth. Should we blow up the sun, or Earth, to prevent this?

No, because there will be many other planets capable of supporting life, and organics will continue long after humanity is extinct. But a technological singularity would end all organic life, everywhere, more assuredly than a thousand engulfing suns.

Perhaps whichever race initially created the Reapers/Catalyst, instructed them to keep organics safe from being wiped out by machines. I could easily see "reaping cycles" being the Catalyst's attempt to do that, by following machine logic and seeing time as an illusion.

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You could say that about ANYTHING. From the point of the reader, we have literally nothing to prove the Catalyst right, in-game. Literally nothing. Why should I believe what the Catalyst is saying when nothing is says has any substance and everything about it seems deceptive?

That's the beauty - you don't have to believe him! you can stand there and shoot/argue with the hologram until you bleed out or the army is destroyed if you want. Nothing is stopping you.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[dreman9999]

Unfallen_Satan wrote...

Much of what the Catalyst says is either a matter of fact or interpretation. For example, the Reaper's sparing of less advanced species is a matter of history. Even the Protheans knew of the Asari and even the humans; there is no reasonable argument that the Reapers simply "missed" them during the Prothean cycle. Whether the Catalyst is really "presevering" extinguished races through Reaper construction is open to interpretation. There is no question the Reapers do employ certain organic material in their construction. Whether you think that constitutes "preservation through extinction" is up to you.

Other statements by the Catalyst become entangled by whether you believe the ending is real. I favor the "it's real" interpretation, though I honestly don't care, so everything it says about controlling the Reapers or destroying them with EDI comes to pass in the cinematics. Obviously if you believe it's all in Shepard's head, then perhaps none of it is real. In that case, maybe the Catalyst isn't even real, and the issue is moot.

I have not see any evidence of Reaper deception in the game. The current races, like the Protheans, found the Citadel and the Mass Relays. No one ever claimed what they are or isn't, least of all the Reapers. Indoctrination is not mind control through lies; Winston really does love Big Brother at the end of 1984. I am uncertain what transpires when Saren and TIM tries to resist the Reapers; they experience a change of heart, but the source of the apparent inner struggle is never explained.

I feel in many ways the Catalyst is like Satan. Outright lies are so boring. Some information is offered at face value. Others are mere possibilities. Much is hidden and presented in such a way that others interpret falsely, but it is still others' interpretation. The Catalyst has spoken, and you can believe whatever you want to believe.

As for why he says what other Reapers have said before? There is no distinction. All Reapers are mere avatars of the Catalyst's will. It is the Alpha and the Omega.

1.Indoctrintion is the reaperstrying to trick and control orgainics.
2. The reaper have been used deseption in ME3...Indoctrination, the fall of the Bartarian world, and the hanar diplomat.Then there is Rena, the asari from Vimire. It truns our shebecomes asleeper agent.
3.Who said they missed the asari...Theasari are not space wurth nor adavane at that time.The reaper hhave no reason to do anything to them.
4.The reapers arn't avatars of the cataylst being that hey all have shown indavisuality.

Nothing you said say that the Star kid is telling the truth.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 01:56 .

[BDelacroix]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, except replace 1000 years with billions of years. Billions of years that had to have gone by before the Reapers were even a concept.

Why stop there? Go to trillions, or quadrillions even.

The point is that, to an immortal machine, all it would see is the probability of that occurrence approaching 1. The length of time it takes to do so wouldn't be relevant to its conclusion - only the preservation of the galaxy as a going concern.

Because by best estimates, the universe is only about 15 billion years old, not trilliosn or quadrillions.

We do live in a finite universe.

[BDelacroix]

Optimystic_X wrote...


That's the beauty - you don't have to believe him! you can stand there and shoot/argue with the hologram until you bleed out or the army is destroyed if you want. Nothing is stopping you.

True. I also don't have to swallow my food to enjoy it.

[Vigil_N7]

What proof do you have to say he is lying either though?

We can neither confirm nor deny what the catalyst is saying, stating either as fact is an error and should be avoided.

[EricHVela]

It just goes back to what logic the Catalyst was using. If something is programmed with a "truth" regardless if it is wrong, it will act as if it is the truth and be unable to process the exceptions until changed, and even then, it could only process a new "truth" based on the change itself.

EDI, however, already stated that one might be able to comprehend the nature of existence but unable to experience it for themselves. This goes equal for "The Truth". We only experience our perspective of it.

[Orthodox Infidel]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, except replace 1000 years with billions of years. Billions of years that had to have gone by before the Reapers were even a concept.

Why stop there? Go to trillions, or quadrillions even.

The point is that, to an immortal machine, all it would see is the probability of that occurrence approaching 1. The length of time it takes to do so wouldn't be relevant to its conclusion - only the preservation of the galaxy as a going concern.

Pro-tip: Events which have never happened cannot be assigned any probability, even by an "immortal machine."

[dreman9999]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Ok, I got the final part :

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Catalyst: "The Crucible changed me. Created...new possibilities. I know you've thought about destroying us. You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want. Including the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic."

Shepard: "But the Reapers will be destroyed?"

Catalyst: "Yes, but the peace won't last. Soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back."

Shepard: "Maybe..."

Catalyst: "Or do you think you can control us?"

Shepard: "Huh. So the Illusive Man was right after all."

Catalyst: "Yes. But he could never have taken control...because we already controlled him."

Shepard: "But I can..."

Catalyst: "You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have."

Shepard: "But the Reapers will obey me?"

Catalyst: "Yes. There is another solution."

Shepard: "Yeah?"

Catalyst: "Synthesis."

Shepard: "And that is?"

Catalyst: "Add your energy to the Crucible's. Everything you are will be absorbed, and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new...DNA."

Shepard: "I...don't know."

Catalyst: "Why not? Synthetics are already part of you. Can you imagine your life without them?"

Shepard: "And there will be peace?"

Catalyst: "The cycle will end. Synthesis is the final evolution of life. But we need each other to make it happen. You have a difficult decision. Releasing the energy of the Crucible will end the cycle, but it will also destroy the mass relays. The paths are open. But you have to choose."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming the Catalyst doesn't see "harvesting" as "killing", maybe we should not infer that his answers are based on our perspective, but rather on those of an entity who knows things we don't, and whom answers will inevitably require interpretation to fit our own relative perspective.

I would point out that the usage of an animated character to be part of this dialogue adds something to it that a simple "Reaper voice" would not have accomplished with this simple text. The "attitude" of "Star Child" can be taken into account, his body language, pauses in speech etc. leave more room to interpretation than just the text.

.....My qustion is based on rea[er different perspective of death. My entire arguement is basedon the fact they are trying to trick you to pick choices they they will still exsist. I been saying that it a timeless entaty that knows more then we do....It stillcan be lying about what it offers being he is from a race of Machines that have a history of know how to decieve organic and applying said actions.

And about body language....It a different form of life.....It not going to have the same form of body language we have.

[EricHVela]

It was rushed.

[dreman9999]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, except replace 1000 years with billions of years. Billions of years that had to have gone by before the Reapers were even a concept.

Why stop there? Go to trillions, or quadrillions even.

The point is that, to an immortal machine, all it would see is the probability of that occurrence approaching 1. The length of time it takes to do so wouldn't be relevant to its conclusion - only the preservation of the galaxy as a going concern.

Pro-tip: Events which have never happened cannot be assigned any probability, even by an "immortal machine."

As I stated before, we are finite beings, we don't  know if it did,didn't, will or will not happen. If you say it can'thappen, proving proof that it can't.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 02:06 .

[dreman9999]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

What proof do you have to say he is lying either though?

We can neither confirm nor deny what the catalyst is saying, stating either as fact is an error and should be avoided.

This is a race of machines with a history of great deception...Who is suddenly giving us  these salution as we are just about to destroy them.......
Really, I don't think I need to spell it out anymore then that.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 02:10 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

dreman9999 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, except replace 1000 years with billions of years. Billions of years that had to have gone by before the Reapers were even a concept.

Why stop there? Go to trillions, or quadrillions even.

The point is that, to an immortal machine, all it would see is the probability of that occurrence approaching 1. The length of time it takes to do so wouldn't be relevant to its conclusion - only the preservation of the galaxy as a going concern.

Pro-tip: Events which have never happened cannot be assigned any probability, even by an "immortal machine."

As I stated before, we are finite beings, we don't  know if it did,didn't, will or will not happen. If you say it can'thappen, proving proof that it can't.

We know it didn't happen because we're still here.

I never claimed it wouldn't ever happen, but the point is that Starbrat speaks of this as being certain to take place, when he incapable of possessing information to assign any probability to that event.

Also, the Starbrat is obviously a finite being; it didn't predict that Shepard would be standing right there, so obviously its predictive abilities are extremely limited.

[Aurvant]

If the creator of the reapers was meant to be trusted the it wouldn't have make it's creations so deceptive, controlling, and murderous.

The fact that Indoctrination even exists is proof enough that anything that the catalyst says is crap.

[Orthodox Infidel]

count_4 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

This disproves nothing. I have never been hit by lightning, does that mean I can mindlessly walk around in a thunderstorm?

Thousands of people just like you have been hit by lighting throughout recorded human history. The probability of someone getting struck by lighting is trivially easy to compute, because it's happened many times.

"All organic life" has never been wiped out, ever. The probability of that event is incalculable.

[PsyrenY]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Pro-tip: Events which have never happened cannot be assigned any probability, even by an "immortal machine."

'
That specific event does not have to have happened (if it had, as you rightfully said, we would all be dead already.) Rather, the composite events leading to it have to happen - and they have.

- Organics create AI: This has happened.
- AI can be hostile to organics: This has happened.
- Organics can lose to AI: This has happened.

All that is needed for the Catalyst's scenario to occur, is all three of these things being true at some point. Which, on a long enough timeline and without Reaper intervention, they will be.

But if organic civilization is cut off before (a) and ( are true, it won't. From a machine's perspective, the choice is clear.

BDelacroix wrote...

Because by best estimates, the universe is only about 15 billion years old, not trilliosn or quadrillions.

We do live in a finite universe.

To an immortal machine, that amount of time is still a blip. His simulations can stretch all the way out to Heat Death, maybe even beyond if he comes up with a solution to that along the way.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 02:17 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...
'
That specific event does not have to have happened (if it had, as you rightfully said, we would all be dead already.) Rather, the composite events leading to it have to happen - and they have.

- Organics create AI: This has happened.
- AI can be hostile to organics: This has happened.
- Organics can lose to AI: This has happened.

All that is needed for the Catalyst's scenario to occur, is all three of these things being true at some point. Which, on a long enough timeline and without Reaper intervention, they will be.

But if organic civilization is cut off before (a) and ( are true, it won't. From a machine's perspective, the choice is clear.

None of those in any way hint that the Catalyst's scenario will occur. It is an assumption.
It has never happened, it's never gotten close to happening, it will never happen. The extermination of all organic life on a galactic scale would be a monumental undertaking and the Catalyst cannot prove any synthetic life would be inclined to ever to that.

We on the other hand have two examples of synthetic life being victorious over their creators.
The Zha'till, who were hybrids. Organic life not in danger.
The Geth, who refused to exterminate their creators, restored Rannoch's biosphere and maintained an enviroment suitable for plant and animal life for 300 years. Organic life not in danger.

Modifié par The Angry One, 19 avril 2012 - 02:19 .

[dreman9999]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah, except replace 1000 years with billions of years. Billions of years that had to have gone by before the Reapers were even a concept.

Why stop there? Go to trillions, or quadrillions even.

The point is that, to an immortal machine, all it would see is the probability of that occurrence approaching 1. The length of time it takes to do so wouldn't be relevant to its conclusion - only the preservation of the galaxy as a going concern.

Pro-tip: Events which have never happened cannot be assigned any probability, even by an "immortal machine."

As I stated before, we are finite beings, we don't  know if it did,didn't, will or will not happen. If you say it can'thappen, proving proof that it can't.

We know it didn't happen because we're still here.

I never claimed it wouldn't ever happen, but the point is that Starbrat speaks of this as being certain to take place, when he incapable of possessing information to assign any probability to that event.

Also, the Starbrat is obviously a finite being; it didn't predict that Shepard would be standing right there, so obviously its predictive abilities are extremely limited.

1.Base on the theory of system creation, one can think that over time other systems were created and given time to make life. Life in the entire galexy can esaliy have been wiped clean and given time to be able to happen again.For all we know the reaper are trying to stop another galatic extiction event like that.

2. I never said he is onipitate. Just that the reaper have much, much broader perspective then organics. That they have seen and learned andmade way more thing we have by the fact that they have live so much longer then us. The referance ofthem being timeless isthe fact that they don't age and we don't know when they were first made...They could be form other galexies for all we know. Also, abut the reapers predictive abilitlties, remeber these are the same race that made the mass relay trap. Their predictive abilities are stagger to even comprihend. Every thing in ME just show they do have a blind spot.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

None of those in any way hint that the Catalyst's scenario will occur. It is an assumption.

AI that is both hostile to, and capable of defeating, organics - without the Reapers' directive to spare undeveloped races - would indeed lead to the Catalyst's scenario.

If the Reapers didn't have that directive, they could easily wipe out all organics every time they roll through - and keep any new ones that popped up in barbarism by not giving them time to develop mass effect drive, much less find a relay.

The Angry One wrote...
It has never happened, it's never gotten close to happening, it will never happen. The extermination of all organic life on a galactic scale would be a monumental undertaking and the Catalyst cannot prove any synthetic life would be inclined to ever to that.

It would be monumental for organics; machines are infinitely patient. A Grey Goo scenario for instance wouldn't stop until the entire galaxy was consumed.

"It hasn't happened yet" isn't enough assurance for an artificial intelligence.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 02:24 .

[GLR-0053]

Introducing a new element at the end of the story.
Moral of the story: Do not rely on machines. Organics are chaotic and prone to destruction, best to destroy them before they destroy themselves.

[The Angry One]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Base on the theory of system creation, one can think that over time other systems were created and given time to make life. Life in the entire galexy can esaliy have been wiped clean and given time to be able to happen again.For all we know the reaper are trying to stop another galatic extiction event like that.

Then it's efforts are moot. If organic life has gone extinct and risen again, it's entire purpose is pointless. Organic life will exist without him.

2. I never said he is onipitate. Just that the reaper have much, much broader perspective then organics. That they have seen and learned andmade way more thing we have by the fact that they have live so much longer then us. The referance ofthem being timeless isthe fact that they don't age and we don't know when they were first made...They could be form other galexies for all we know. Also, abut the reapers predictive abilitlties, remeber these are the same race that made the mass relay trap. Their predictive abilities are stagger to even comprihend. Every thing in ME just show they do have a blind spot.

Sorry but if they have a broader perspective then they don't show it. Their motives are both perfectly knowable, and complete garbage. You can't appeal to their age and authority and proclaim that they have some greater purpose we don't understand. We understand it. It just sucks.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AI that is both hostile to, and capable of defeating, organics - without the Reapers' directive to spare undeveloped races - would indeed lead to the Catalyst's scenario.

Explain why.
It's never happened.

It would be monumental for organics; machines are infinitely patient. A Grey Goo scenario for instance wouldn't stop until the entire galaxy was consumed.

To what end? It's an illogical undertaking.

"It hasn't happened yet" isn't enough assurance for an artificial intelligence.

Yes it is. Billions of years. I repeat, billions of years went by without the Reapers, and yet organics are still here.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
'
That specific event does not have to have happened (if it had, as you rightfully said, we would all be dead already.) Rather, the composite events leading to it have to happen - and they have.

- Organics create AI: This has happened.
- AI can be hostile to organics: This has happened.
- Organics can lose to AI: This has happened.

All that is needed for the Catalyst's scenario to occur, is all three of these things being true at some point. Which, on a long enough timeline and without Reaper intervention, they will be.

But if organic civilization is cut off before (a) and ( are true, it won't. From a machine's perspective, the choice is clear.

None of those in any way hint that the Catalyst's scenario will occur. It is an assumption.
It has never happened, it's never gotten close to happening, it will never happen. The extermination of all organic life on a galactic scale would be a monumental undertaking and the Catalyst cannot prove any synthetic life would be inclined to ever to that.

We on the other hand have two examples of synthetic life being victorious over their creators.
The Zha'till, who were hybrids. Organic life not in danger.
The Geth, who refused to exterminate their creators, restored Rannoch's biosphere and maintained an enviroment suitable for plant and animal life for 300 years. Organic life not in danger.

Arn't we forgeting the fact that organics are the reason synthetic agrestion? Organic have a natural instice of causing conflict....This instict has lead to massive war in our history. To say that this would not happed with organics vs synthetics is short sighted.