352 réponses à ce sujet

[pacer90]

The Angry One wrote...

You can't, because his assertions are unprovable. He uses logical fallacies, assumptions and circular logic to justify it's psychopathic insanity.

The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

The bolded were my thoughts exactly.

[M Hedonist]

The point is, what would even be the point of the ending if the Catalyst was lying to you? That just makes his motivations even more confusing. Some say he implied Shepard would die so he wouldn't take 'destruction', but what's the point of that? Why did he even tell him about the pipes in the first place if he didn't want him to do that?
Saying Catalyst is a liar only makes sense with some abstract theory like IT. And it just doesn't seem like that's what Bioware planned.

[dreman9999]

The Angry One wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.Base on the theory of system creation, one can think that over time other systems were created and given time to make life. Life in the entire galexy can esaliy have been wiped clean and given time to be able to happen again.For all we know the reaper are trying to stop another galatic extiction event like that.

Then it's efforts are moot. If organic life has gone extinct and risen again, it's entire purpose is pointless. Organic life will exist without him.

2. I never said he is onipitate. Just that the reaper have much, much broader perspective then organics. That they have seen and learned andmade way more thing we have by the fact that they have live so much longer then us. The referance ofthem being timeless isthe fact that they don't age and we don't know when they were first made...They could be form other galexies for all we know. Also, abut the reapers predictive abilitlties, remeber these are the same race that made the mass relay trap. Their predictive abilities are stagger to even comprihend. Every thing in ME just show they do have a blind spot.

Sorry but if they have a broader perspective then they don't show it. Their motives are both perfectly knowable, and complete garbage. You can't appeal to their age and authority and proclaim that they have some greater purpose we don't understand. We understand it. It just sucks.

1. No it's not...The whole reaso is to not have current advance life die off and life in general die off. They want to make it so everyone lives.
2.What did I say before to you? The reapers are not here to argue their points...They are here to imposed them.
Then never argue their point, not in the past cycles and not in this one. Even the explination the reaper on rennoch is just imposing his baleifs on you.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Explain why.
It's never happened.

"It's never happened" != "it will never happen." I've never been to Australia.

The Angry One wrote...
To what end? It's an illogical undertaking.

Why would a Gray Goo scenario occur? a simple reason could be machines programmed to optimize and propagate themselves.

The Angry One wrote...
Yes it is. Billions of years. I repeat, billions of years went by without the Reapers, and yet organics are still here.

What are billions of years to an immortal intelligence?
And for all you know - for those billions of years, there were no organics capable of creating AI (until whichever ones ended up creating the Reapers.) Heck, the Catalyst could be one of the first AIs ever made.

There had to be at least one AI race before him, but even if they were defeated it would still be enough for it to form its hypothesis.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 02:49 .

[lillitheris]

The developers obviously intended that the Catalyst's options are the real genuine thing (otherwise there'd have been a way to decline them, ‘see his bluff’).

That said, there needs to be some in-game reason for Shepard to believe it. It must be addressed in the EC. Unlike what JSheppp says below, just blindly accepting those choices is not the best option. For one, you're not certain about what's going on outside; another is that you might think that you can somehow scramble the Reapers' comms if you were able to disrupt the Catalyst. It's not about what actually happens, and what your actual options are, it's about how you perceive those options.

So, with the assumption that the options are in fact valid ones, we've been going over it in my EC/ending/clarification thread (or signature), without that much success. I'm quoting myself from there on the most plausible explanation I have thus far:

lillitheris wrote in a thread far, far away…

Yeah, I think the question of the Catalyst is an important one. We've only dealt with it cursorily, because it's pretty tricky to solve. Being able to get an external comm would be the best, although of course you'd only get a plausible explanation out of that (could they really do some kind of a scan to verify that?) That also creates the problem that, well, you have external comms. There's all kinds of stuff that you could do with that, and I don't think they want you to.

So, maybe the most plausible thing would be that you go for the [new, added -l] Investigate option, “why should I believe you?”, and the Catalyst says that it's going to upload some schematic data to the fleet; a moment later, it opens some communication shield (which has been preventing you from getting comms earlier), and among the cacophony of the fleet in battle, you hear Hackett, EDI, Dr. Lok or someone try to hail: “Commander Shepard? Commander? We received schematics and analysis, are you transmitting this? They show that the Crucible plans were correct, but there's something preventing it from firing. You can release the destructive ray by disabling the thingamajic somewhere nearby place, it looks like; EDI also says that there's some kind of a code repository there with Reaper command structure modifications that could be used if they could be beamed to the Reapers, but she can't get access to it. There's also some really weird schematics for nanotech that seem something like the ones in the husks but not quite. Commander, we can only hold off for a few minutes before the Reapers get to the Crucible, what is going on?! What's the situ-” with the Catalyst then closing the comms shield, the fleet  chatter dies off etc.

How does that sound? Obvious faults? It's not great, but it works mostly in the given framework. It gives you reasonable assurance without getting some magic confirmation, as well as an impetus to figure it out quick because of a reason that you know is accurate.

Feedback here or in the clarification thread would be great!

Modifié par lillitheris, 19 avril 2012 - 02:40 .

[JShepppp]

OP you are right to point out that we aren't given proof, and I think somewhere in this thread you also stated that ultimately the Catalyst's reasoning doesn't matter because it has the strength and power to enforce it, and the latter is what ultimately matters and forces us to deal with his logic irregardless of any evidence.

My idea, at least for my Shep, was always a practical one in regard to the Star Child's logic. Somebody who's been doing stuff for about a billion years (or more) isn't going to change its mind about its logic within five minutes. Also, Shep was dying and would probably be dead in 5 more minutes regardless from bleeding out. There were two initial ideas, I thought:

(1) Disagree with Catalyst / Don't Trust it
(2) Agree with Catalyst about the problem but not about its solution, Trust it

Irregardless, you have two choices:

(1) Activate the Crucible (implicitly/explicitly trusting it when it describes the options)
(2) Do nothing

Now, if you do nothing, the galaxy is screwed anyways and the Reapers win.

If you activate the Crucible, two things can happen. Either the Catalyst was lying and you die regardless (if it was lying about one option, you can't trust it about others, and you're going to die in a few minutes anyways) or the Catalyst is telling the truth and the Crucible, in some way, deals with the Reaper threat. If the former happens, there's no difference; you're not worse off than NOT activating the Crucible. If the latter happens, you're better off.

So it is always in your best interest to activate the Crucible and just hope for the best. Combined with my Shepard dying, I didn't think much of the entire issue. As a soldier facing insurmountable odds, the time will eventually come for a leap of faith.

[dreman9999]

Sauruz wrote...

The point is, what would even be the point of the ending if the Catalyst was lying to you? That just makes his motivations even more confusing. Some say he implied Shepard would die so he wouldn't take 'destruction', but what's the point of that? Why did he even tell him about the pipes in the first place if he didn't want him to do that?
Saying Catalyst is a liar only makes sense with some abstract theory like IT. And it just doesn't seem like that's what Bioware planned.

...More confusing....What's so confusing by the fact that he try to stop you from killing off the reapers?
Also, your forgetting you are the one that decided to destory the reaper first. Him give you the offer is just a miss direction so he can discredit the choice. This typeof tactic us used all the time in arguements.The true is he is try to impose t that he is in control when he is not.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 02:33 .

[dreman9999]

JShepppp wrote...

OP you are right to point out that we aren't given proof, and I think somewhere in this thread you also stated that ultimately the Catalyst's reasoning doesn't matter because it has the strength and power to enforce it, and the latter is what ultimately matters and forces us to deal with his logic irregardless of any evidence.

My idea, at least for my Shep, was always a practical one in regard to the Star Child's logic. Somebody who's been doing stuff for about a billion years (or more) isn't going to change its mind about its logic within five minutes. Also, Shep was dying and would probably be dead in 5 more minutes regardless from bleeding out. There were two initial ideas, I thought:

(1) Disagree with Catalyst / Don't Trust it
(2) Agree with Catalyst about the problem but not about its solution, Trust it

Irregardless, you have two choices:

(1) Activate the Crucible (implicitly/explicitly trusting it when it describes the options)
(2) Do nothing

Now, if you do nothing, the galaxy is screwed anyways and the Reapers win.

If you activate the Crucible, two things can happen. Either the Catalyst was lying and you die regardless (if it was lying about one option, you can't trust it about others, and you're going to die in a few minutes anyways) or the Catalyst is telling the truth and the Crucible, in some way, deals with the Reaper threat. If the former happens, there's no difference; you're not worse off than NOT activating the Crucible. If the latter happens, you're better off.

So it is always in your best interest to activate the Crucible and just hope for the best. Combined with my Shepard dying, I didn't think much of the entire issue. As a soldier facing insurmountable odds, the time will eventually come for a leap of faith.

Not getting what I'm saying. Your threating the fact that all the offers are attempt to misguide you and that all of them he is offering.
The true is that he really is not offing the destory option. Remeber, you where going to do it any way, you made that choice way before the star child came up. That offer for destrution is just given so he can discredit it and makeit look like the worst choice. Remeber, it is the choice that the applies the most negative to.

[dreman9999]

lillitheris wrote...

The developers obviously intended that the Catalyst's options are the real genuine thing (otherwise there'd have been a way to decline them, ‘see his bluff’).

That said, there needs to be some in-game reason for Shepard to believe it. It must be addressed in the EC.

We've been going over it in my EC/ending/clarification thread (or signature), without that much success. I'm quoting myself from there on the most plausible explanation I have thus far:

lillitheris wrote in a thread far, far away…

Yeah, I think the question of the Catalyst is an important one. We've only dealt with it cursorily, because it's pretty tricky to solve. Being able to get an external comm would be the best, although of course you'd only get a plausible explanation out of that (could they really do some kind of a scan to verify that?) That also creates the problem that, well, you have external comms. There's all kinds of stuff that you could do with that, and I don't think they want you to.

So, maybe the most plausible thing would be that you go for the [new, added -l] Investigate option, “why should I believe you?”, and the Catalyst says that it's going to upload some schematic data to the fleet; a moment later, it opens some communication shield (which has been preventing you from getting comms earlier), and among the cacophony of the fleet in battle, you hear Hackett, EDI, Dr. Lok or someone try to hail: “Commander Shepard? Commander? We received schematics and analysis, are you transmitting this? They show that the Crucible plans were correct, but there's something preventing it from firing. You can release the destructive ray by disabling the thingamajic somewhere nearby place, it looks like; EDI also says that there's some kind of a code repository there with Reaper command structure modifications that could be used if they could be beamed to the Reapers, but she can't get access to it. There's also some really weird schematics for nanotech that seem something like the ones in the husks but not quite. Commander, we can only hold off for a few minutes before the Reapers get to the Crucible, what is going on?! What's the situ-” with the Catalyst then closing the comms shield, the fleet  chatter dies off etc.

How does that sound? Obvious faults? It's not great, but it works mostly in the given framework. It gives you reasonable assurance without getting some magic confirmation, as well as an impetus to figure it out quick because of a reason that you know is accurate.

Feedback here or in the clarification thread would be great!

That really doesn't prove what the star childsays in the game is true. Just in theory more thing can be added tothe conversation. What you put in your statement is not guanteed to be what bw is going to put in EC. It's a speculation.

[M Hedonist]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The point is, what would even be the point of the ending if the Catalyst was lying to you? That just makes his motivations even more confusing. Some say he implied Shepard would die so he wouldn't take 'destruction', but what's the point of that? Why did he even tell him about the pipes in the first place if he didn't want him to do that?
Saying Catalyst is a liar only makes sense with some abstract theory like IT. And it just doesn't seem like that's what Bioware planned.

...More confusing....What's so confusing by the fact that he try to stop you from killing off the reapers?
Also, your forgetting you are the one that decided to destory the reaper first. Him give you the offer is just a miss direction so he can discredit the choice. This typeof tactic us used all the time in arguements.The true is he is try to impose t that he is in control when he is not.

That doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to stop Shepard from taking the 'destruction' option he could have done a number of things to stop him that are way more effective. Such as:
- Not lifting him up on the elevator
- Not telling him about 'destruction'
- Telling him jumping into the 'synthesis' beam would destroy all the reapers
- Telling him reapers can't be destroyed
- Ordering one of the reapers to destroy the Crucible
- Ordering one fo the reapers to kill Shepard
- Ordering one of the reapers to launch one of their flaming rocks carrying husks onto the Crucible
- Not talking to Shepard at all
And that was just from the top of my head.

[ElSuperGecko]

Whether the Catalyst is telling the truth or not is pretty much a moot point because either way, you still can't trust it.

The Catalyst is completely and utterly divorced from the organic universe. It is incapable of seeing organics point of view - it considers the Reaper's cycle of extinction to be a perfectly acceptable and logical solution to it's belief in an eventual technological singularity (which is a possibility, but far from a certainity). It considers the systematic extermination and harvesting of billions of innocent lives to be a good thing.

We organics of course, view these methods in a completely different fashion. They're abhorrent. We've spent the best part of three games fighting to put an end to it, once and for all.

Yet the Catalyst shows no consideration for the organics who's lives it holds in it's hand, no deference to their individuality and wishes, no remorse, no regret for it's actions and the decisions it's made. It's only regret is that the solution is no longer viable, so it proposes a new, equally-objectionable alternative.

Whether it is being open and honest with Shepard is irrelevant. It is an entirely different order of being from life as we know it, with it's own logic, it's own motives and it's own goals. We cannot accept it's point of view, because in doing so we are conceding to a being which is totally unwilling to compromise, and as a result betraying our friends, love interests, allies and everyone who is fighting for and relying on Shepard.

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...


The true is that he really is not offing the destory option. Remeber, you where going to do it any way, you made that choice way before the star child came up. That offer for destrution is just given so he can discredit it and makeit look like the worst choice. Remeber, it is the choice that the applies the most negative to.

"You were going to do it anyway."

How? Shepard explicitly said s/he didn't know how to activate the crucible. What were you going to do exactly? Push random buttons on the console until you bled out?

Sauruz wrote...


That doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to stop Shepard from taking the 'destruction' option he could have done a number of things to stop him that are way more effective. Such as:
- Not lifting him up on the elevator
- Not telling him about 'destruction'
- Telling him jumping into the 'synthesis' beam would destroy all the reapers
- Telling him reapers can't be destroyed
- Ordering one of the reapers to destroy the Crucible
- Ordering one fo the reapers to kill Shepard
- Ordering one of the reapers to launch one of their flaming rocks carrying husks onto the Crucible
- Not talking to Shepard at all
And that was just from the top of my head.

Every time I mention these, they get ignored

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 19 avril 2012 - 02:48 .

[lillitheris]

dreman9999 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The developers obviously intended that the Catalyst's options are the real genuine thing (otherwise there'd have been a way to decline them, ‘see his bluff’).

That said, there needs to be some in-game reason for Shepard to believe it. It must be addressed in the EC.

We've been going over it in my EC/ending/clarification thread (or signature), without that much success. I'm quoting myself from there on the most plausible explanation I have thus far:

lillitheris wrote in a thread far, far away…

Yeah, I think the question of the Catalyst is an important one. We've only dealt with it cursorily, because it's pretty tricky to solve. Being able to get an external comm would be the best, although of course you'd only get a plausible explanation out of that (could they really do some kind of a scan to verify that?) That also creates the problem that, well, you have external comms. There's all kinds of stuff that you could do with that, and I don't think they want you to.

So, maybe the most plausible thing would be that you go for the [new, added -l] Investigate option, “why should I believe you?”, and the Catalyst says that it's going to upload some schematic data to the fleet; a moment later, it opens some communication shield (which has been preventing you from getting comms earlier), and among the cacophony of the fleet in battle, you hear Hackett, EDI, Dr. Lok or someone try to hail: “Commander Shepard? Commander? We received schematics and analysis, are you transmitting this? They show that the Crucible plans were correct, but there's something preventing it from firing. You can release the destructive ray by disabling the thingamajic somewhere nearby place, it looks like; EDI also says that there's some kind of a code repository there with Reaper command structure modifications that could be used if they could be beamed to the Reapers, but she can't get access to it. There's also some really weird schematics for nanotech that seem something like the ones in the husks but not quite. Commander, we can only hold off for a few minutes before the Reapers get to the Crucible, what is going on?! What's the situ-” with the Catalyst then closing the comms shield, the fleet  chatter dies off etc.

How does that sound? Obvious faults? It's not great, but it works mostly in the given framework. It gives you reasonable assurance without getting some magic confirmation, as well as an impetus to figure it out quick because of a reason that you know is accurate.

Feedback here or in the clarification thread would be great!

That really doesn't prove what the star childsays in the game is true. Just in theory more thing can be added tothe conversation. What you put in your statement is not guanteed to be what bw is going to put in EC. It's a speculation.

It doesn't prove it, no. I think, though, that it's a reasonable assurance, and moreover, I think it's one of the few ways that even that can be achieved. Like I said, it's imperative that we get some explanation for why Shepard believes the Catalyst, and this is one way to do it.

Is there something that you think could be improved about it?

And, no, we don't know what's going into the EC. I'm trying to collect ideas that can be used in the EC, illustrating what the playerbase thinks is feasible and what isn't, hopefully actually making its way to the developers.

[M Hedonist]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Yet the Catalyst shows no consideration for the organics who's lives it holds in it's hand, no deference to their individuality and wishes, no remorse, no regret for it's actions and the decisions it's made. It's only regret is that the solution is no longer viable, so it proposes a new, equally-objectionable alternative.

But these new 'solutions' are no solutions at all to the conflict he wants to stop. He acknowledges himself 'destruction' is no solution, he says something along the lines of 'but the chaos will return'. And in 'control' he grants Shepard godlike powers even though he has no idea what he would do with them. Shepard could fly all of the reapers into the next sun, or even use them to destroy all organic life.
Also, the explanation that his original 'solution' doesn't work anymore doesn't make sense because he could have just let Shepard bleed out. He was dying, yet the Catalyst lifted him up on the elevator and explained him how to destroy all reapers.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

"It's never happened" != "it will never happen." I've never been to Australia.

Now who's thinking small scale?

Why would a Gray Goo scenario occur? a simple reason could be machines programmed to optimize and propagate themselves.

If they did so with organic life, they would have a vested interest in not consuming all of it.
Also, this is wild speculation.

What are billions of years to an immortal intelligence?
And for all you know - for those billions of years, there were no organics capable of creating AI (until whichever ones ended up creating the Reapers.) Heck, the Catalyst could be one of the first AIs ever made.

At the rate Reapers are constructed, there would've had to have been a VERY long time before Reapers were able to cull an entire galaxy. In that time, any scenario the Catalyst could occur should've occured.
It didn't. The only one killing organics on a galactic scale is the Catalyst itself.

Modifié par The Angry One, 19 avril 2012 - 02:51 .

[lillitheris]

Sauruz wrote...

That doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to stop Shepard from taking the 'destruction' option he could have done a number of things to stop him that are way more effective. Such as:
- Not lifting him up on the elevator
- Not telling him about 'destruction'
- Telling him jumping into the 'synthesis' beam would destroy all the reapers
- Telling him reapers can't be destroyed
- Ordering one of the reapers to destroy the Crucible
- Ordering one fo the reapers to kill Shepard
- Ordering one of the reapers to launch one of their flaming rocks carrying husks onto the Crucible
- Not talking to Shepard at all
And that was just from the top of my head.

You are using post hoc reasoning. You can't say that Shepard wouldn't think the Catalyst is lying because the Synthesis beam is actually Synthesis, or Destruction is Destruction. The entire point is that Shepard doesn't know that at the time the decision needs to be made.

[Spectre-00N7]

Hexi-decimal wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You can't, because his assertions are unprovable. He uses logical fallacies, assumptions and circular logic to justify it's psychopathic insanity.

The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

in this galaxy~

Still did not wipe out ALL organic life

[dreman9999]

Sauruz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sauruz wrote...

The point is, what would even be the point of the ending if the Catalyst was lying to you? That just makes his motivations even more confusing. Some say he implied Shepard would die so he wouldn't take 'destruction', but what's the point of that? Why did he even tell him about the pipes in the first place if he didn't want him to do that?
Saying Catalyst is a liar only makes sense with some abstract theory like IT. And it just doesn't seem like that's what Bioware planned.

...More confusing....What's so confusing by the fact that he try to stop you from killing off the reapers?
Also, your forgetting you are the one that decided to destory the reaper first. Him give you the offer is just a miss direction so he can discredit the choice. This typeof tactic us used all the time in arguements.The true is he is try to impose t that he is in control when he is not.

That doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to stop Shepard from taking the 'destruction' option he could have done a number of things to stop him that are way more effective. Such as:
- Not lifting him up on the elevator
- Not telling him about 'destruction'
- Telling him jumping into the 'synthesis' beam would destroy all the reapers
- Telling him reapers can't be destroyed
- Ordering one of the reapers to destroy the Crucible
- Ordering one fo the reapers to kill Shepard
- Ordering one of the reapers to launch one of their flaming rocks carrying husks onto the Crucible
- Not talking to Shepard at all
And that was just from the top of my head.

Do I really have to say it? This is a race of machines with a history of deception....I don'treaaly want to say what maybe happening because don't want the agruement to shift to something...different.
Also, you forget who is the one who really have allthe power here...Shepard does....Everything you just state would still need proof to be show to be true.(Elevator maybe excluded. based on how you take my first comment.)
Also, if the reapers could kill Shepard at the catylist,that same reaper could destroy the crucible which would benifite them more. Truth is....theythey would of destory the cataylyst if they could kill Shepard with a reaper then.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 03:00 .

[JShepppp]

dreman9999 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

OP you are right to point out that we aren't given proof, and I think somewhere in this thread you also stated that ultimately the Catalyst's reasoning doesn't matter because it has the strength and power to enforce it, and the latter is what ultimately matters and forces us to deal with his logic irregardless of any evidence.

My idea, at least for my Shep, was always a practical one in regard to the Star Child's logic. Somebody who's been doing stuff for about a billion years (or more) isn't going to change its mind about its logic within five minutes. Also, Shep was dying and would probably be dead in 5 more minutes regardless from bleeding out. There were two initial ideas, I thought:

(1) Disagree with Catalyst / Don't Trust it
(2) Agree with Catalyst about the problem but not about its solution, Trust it

Irregardless, you have two choices:

(1) Activate the Crucible (implicitly/explicitly trusting it when it describes the options)
(2) Do nothing

Now, if you do nothing, the galaxy is screwed anyways and the Reapers win.

If you activate the Crucible, two things can happen. Either the Catalyst was lying and you die regardless (if it was lying about one option, you can't trust it about others, and you're going to die in a few minutes anyways) or the Catalyst is telling the truth and the Crucible, in some way, deals with the Reaper threat. If the former happens, there's no difference; you're not worse off than NOT activating the Crucible. If the latter happens, you're better off.

So it is always in your best interest to activate the Crucible and just hope for the best. Combined with my Shepard dying, I didn't think much of the entire issue. As a soldier facing insurmountable odds, the time will eventually come for a leap of faith.

Not getting what I'm saying. Your threating the fact that all the offers are attempt to misguide you and that all of them he is offering.
The true is that he really is not offing the destory option. Remeber, you where going to do it any way, you made that choice way before the star child came up. That offer for destrution is just given so he can discredit it and makeit look like the worst choice. Remeber, it is the choice that the applies the most negative to.

My point was more that certainly the Crucible has the capability, but there's no guarantee that the destroy option will be specifically triggered how he says it will. If you don't trust what it says, then I at least wouldn't give that distrust halfway (some might and I accept that). I'd throw anything he says into doubt, then I might think that none of the options will do what he says. 

But regardless of what it says, it's in your best interest to listen to it because the alternate is letting the Reapers win FOR SURE. 

[The Angry One]

Sauruz wrote...

That doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to stop Shepard from taking the 'destruction' option he could have done a number of things to stop him that are way more effective. Such as:
- Not lifting him up on the elevator
- Not telling him about 'destruction'
- Telling him jumping into the 'synthesis' beam would destroy all the reapers
- Telling him reapers can't be destroyed
- Ordering one of the reapers to destroy the Crucible
- Ordering one fo the reapers to kill Shepard
- Ordering one of the reapers to launch one of their flaming rocks carrying husks onto the Crucible
- Not talking to Shepard at all
And that was just from the top of my head.

Doing any of those things risks a conventional victory by the fleet.
Even if the fleet doesn't win, the Reapers could come out of the fight so crippled that the next cycle will finish them off.
So starbaby dupes Shepard into using the Crucible to further it's agenda and destroy the galaxy.

[dreman9999]

lillitheris wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The developers obviously intended that the Catalyst's options are the real genuine thing (otherwise there'd have been a way to decline them, ‘see his bluff’).

That said, there needs to be some in-game reason for Shepard to believe it. It must be addressed in the EC.

We've been going over it in my EC/ending/clarification thread (or signature), without that much success. I'm quoting myself from there on the most plausible explanation I have thus far:

lillitheris wrote in a thread far, far away…

Yeah, I think the question of the Catalyst is an important one. We've only dealt with it cursorily, because it's pretty tricky to solve. Being able to get an external comm would be the best, although of course you'd only get a plausible explanation out of that (could they really do some kind of a scan to verify that?) That also creates the problem that, well, you have external comms. There's all kinds of stuff that you could do with that, and I don't think they want you to.

So, maybe the most plausible thing would be that you go for the [new, added -l] Investigate option, “why should I believe you?”, and the Catalyst says that it's going to upload some schematic data to the fleet; a moment later, it opens some communication shield (which has been preventing you from getting comms earlier), and among the cacophony of the fleet in battle, you hear Hackett, EDI, Dr. Lok or someone try to hail: “Commander Shepard? Commander? We received schematics and analysis, are you transmitting this? They show that the Crucible plans were correct, but there's something preventing it from firing. You can release the destructive ray by disabling the thingamajic somewhere nearby place, it looks like; EDI also says that there's some kind of a code repository there with Reaper command structure modifications that could be used if they could be beamed to the Reapers, but she can't get access to it. There's also some really weird schematics for nanotech that seem something like the ones in the husks but not quite. Commander, we can only hold off for a few minutes before the Reapers get to the Crucible, what is going on?! What's the situ-” with the Catalyst then closing the comms shield, the fleet  chatter dies off etc.

How does that sound? Obvious faults? It's not great, but it works mostly in the given framework. It gives you reasonable assurance without getting some magic confirmation, as well as an impetus to figure it out quick because of a reason that you know is accurate.

Feedback here or in the clarification thread would be great!

That really doesn't prove what the star childsays in the game is true. Just in theory more thing can be added tothe conversation. What you put in your statement is not guanteed to be what bw is going to put in EC. It's a speculation.

It doesn't prove it, no. I think, though, that it's a reasonable assurance, and moreover, I think it's one of the few ways that even that can be achieved. Like I said, it's imperative that we get some explanation for why Shepard believes the Catalyst, and this is one way to do it.

Is there something that you think could be improved about it?

And, no, we don't know what's going into the EC. I'm trying to collect ideas that can be used in the EC, illustrating what the playerbase thinks is feasible and what isn't, hopefully actually making its way to the developers.

But it still is speculation. What you stated doesn't show that the starkid is tellike the truth.

[M Hedonist]

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if the reapers could kill Shepard at the cayalyst,that same reaper could destroy the caytylist which would benifite them more. Truth is....theythey would of destory the cataylyst if they could kill Shepard with a reaper then.

Are you saying that the Catalyst may actually be an enemy of the reapers? Now that's fanfiction territory.

[The Angry One]

Sauruz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Also, if the reapers could kill Shepard at the cayalyst,that same reaper could destroy the caytylist which would benifite them more. Truth is....theythey would of destory the cataylyst if they could kill Shepard with a reaper then.

Are you saying that the Catalyst may actually be an enemy of the reapers? Now that's fanfiction territory.

Lots of speculation from everyone!

[dreman9999]

Sauruz wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Yet the Catalyst shows no consideration for the organics who's lives it holds in it's hand, no deference to their individuality and wishes, no remorse, no regret for it's actions and the decisions it's made. It's only regret is that the solution is no longer viable, so it proposes a new, equally-objectionable alternative.

But these new 'solutions' are no solutions at all to the conflict he wants to stop. He acknowledges himself 'destruction' is no solution, he says something along the lines of 'but the chaos will return'. And in 'control' he grants Shepard godlike powers even though he has no idea what he would do with them. Shepard could fly all of the reapers into the next sun, or even use them to destroy all organic life.
Also, the explanation that his original 'solution' doesn't work anymore doesn't make sense because he could have just let Shepard bleed out. He was dying, yet the Catalyst lifted him up on the elevator and explained him how to destroy all reapers.

Again...What is the proof that the star child is telling the truth?

[ElSuperGecko]

Sauruz wrote...
But these new 'solutions' are no solutions at all to the conflict he wants to stop. He acknowledges himself 'destruction' is no solution, he says something along the lines of 'but the chaos will return'. And in 'control' he grants Shepard godlike powers even though he has no idea what he would do with them. Shepard could fly all of the reapers into the next sun, or even use them to destroy all organic life.
Also, the explanation that his original 'solution' doesn't work anymore doesn't make sense because he could have just let Shepard bleed out. He was dying, yet the Catalyst lifted him up on the elevator and explained him how to destroy all reapers.

Neither of those options are the Catalyst's new solution.

Shepard (with Hackett, Anderson etc) is originally planning to to use the Crucible to "Destroy" the Reapers.

The Illusive Man is planning to use it to "Control" the Reapers.

The Catalyst admits these possibilities exist, but the only solution the Catalyst actually proposes itself is "Synthesis".  And it does so with the emotionless, unfeeling judgement and logic of a billion-year old machine.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 19 avril 2012 - 02:58 .