352 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Laurencio wrote...

Dreman9999

Well there is no way to prove the validity of anything he says, aside from the ending cinematic seemingly making it seem like the choices actually did what it told yu they would. So if it is telling the truth about that, then it could easily have been telling the truth about everything else.

You really don't want me to make a comment on the ending.....The topic would go to a completly different direction. Think of it this way....How do you know what is real?....And I'll end it at that.

[Unholyknight800]

dreman9999 wrote...

Unholyknight800 wrote...

Javik and the Starchild pissed me off with their close mindedness.

0o_o0!!!!!! He/her hates javik! Through him/her out the air lock!

I don't hate Javik but his beliefs are what pisses me off. 

[dreman9999]

Unholyknight800 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Unholyknight800 wrote...

Javik and the Starchild pissed me off with their close mindedness.

0o_o0!!!!!! He/her hates javik! Through him/her out the air lock!

I don't hate Javik but his beliefs are what pisses me off. 

He just space Sten....Remeber, Sten has the samehate for magic as Javik has the same hate sythetics.

[Jeb231]

If you read the leaked script synthesis is the perfect ending.So no he isn't (sadly).

Modifié par Jeb231, 19 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[Unholyknight800]

dreman9999 wrote...

Unholyknight800 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Unholyknight800 wrote...

Javik and the Starchild pissed me off with their close mindedness.

0o_o0!!!!!! He/her hates javik! Through him/her out the air lock!

I don't hate Javik but his beliefs are what pisses me off. 

He just space Sten....Remeber, Sten has the samehate for magic as Javik has the same hate sythetics.

Which is why I love them 

[dreman9999]

Jeb231 wrote...

If you read the leaked script synthesis is the perfect ending.So no he isn't (sadly).

Please, with the air of speculation BW is doing, know one can say what the perfect ending is. Not even a leaked script.

[PsyrenY]

jumpingkaede wrote...
Right.  Because it's basically a badly programmed killbot.

What frightens and upsets me is that Shepard trusts this badly programmed killbot with something as serious as killing himself.

If it wanted to kill you, or even just stop you, it has many ways of doing so which have been listed earlier in this thread. I have no reason not to trust it, no desire to risk genociding the Geth, and no knowledge of how to activate the Crucible save by the three paths shown to me.

[jumpingkaede]

Optimystic_X wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...
Right.  Because it's basically a badly programmed killbot.

What frightens and upsets me is that Shepard trusts this badly programmed killbot with something as serious as killing himself.

If it wanted to kill you, or even just stop you, it has many ways of doing so which have been listed earlier in this thread. I have no reason not to trust it, no desire to risk genociding the Geth, and no knowledge of how to activate the Crucible save by the three paths shown to me.

That's if it wanted to stop you from Destroying the Reapers.  But that presupposes two things, neither of which are known to Shepard at the time he makes his decision:

1.  That blowing up the tube actually destroys the Reapers.

2.  That the Catalyst has an alternate means of killing Shepard.  

At best, you can assume that the Catalyst could have let Shepard bleed out.  I can point to nothing in the game, however, up to that point that indicates the Catalyst has an affirmative means of killing Shepard.  If you can, please do.

The rest is hindsight reasoning.  (Except for the first in bold).  Or requires information that neither you nor Shepard would have access to at the time.  Some of which requires information that we still don't have today, including anything involving ordering the Reapers to do anything.  

In order for the any of the below to be true you have to know that blowing up the tube actually stops the Reapers.  How Shepard could know that is simply impossible.  He "trusts" the Catalyst on that point.  

But why?

Sauruz wrote...

That doesn't make any sense. If he really wanted to stop Shepard from taking the 'destruction' option he could have done a number of things to stop him that are way more effective. Such as:
- Not lifting him up on the elevator
- Not telling him about 'destruction'
- Telling him jumping into the 'synthesis' beam would destroy all the reapers
- Telling him reapers can't be destroyed
- Ordering one of the reapers to destroy the Crucible
- Ordering one fo the reapers to kill Shepard
- Ordering one of the reapers to launch one of their flaming rocks carrying husks onto the Crucible
- Not talking to Shepard at all
And that was just from the top of my head.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 19 avril 2012 - 04:40 .

[Orthodox Infidel]

Optimystic_X wrote...

A Gray Goo or other hostile synthetic would have no reason not to keep going, however.

You've mentioned Gray Goo a number of times.

Firstly, are you aware that the man who coined the term has now backed away from that hypothesis and now regrets ever spreading it? 

The "Grey goo" article on Wikipedia wrote...

The term grey goo was coined by nanotechnology pioneer Eric Drexler in his 1986 book Engines of Creation,[4] stating that "we cannot afford certain types of accidents." In 2004 he stated "I wish I had never used the term 'grey goo'."

SNIP

Drexler more recently conceded that there is no need to build anything that even resembles a potential runaway replicator. This would avoid the problem entirely. In a paper in the journal Nanotechnology, he argues that self-replicating machines are needlessly complex and inefficient.

Secondly, you are aware that, even if we assume grey goo is possible, that it can only threaten one planet at a time right? There's not a lot of stuff to eat in the vacuum of space. So it can't threaten all organic life, which is what we're supposed to be worried about.

[PsyrenY]

jumpingkaede wrote...


At best, you can assume that the Catalyst could have let Shepard bleed out.  I can point to nothing in the game, however, up to that point that indicates the Catalyst has an affirmative means of killing Shepard.  If you can, please do.

Even if you assume Shepard would not bleed out, the Reapers are still decimating the fleet (and the Crucible itself) outside. The latter is evident due to what happens if you wait around too long. The former is evident from Hackett's pre-battle discussion; shield fleet can only hold out for so long, and if they retreat, then "the Reapers bleed us slowly. Conventionally, we have no chance to win without the Crucible."

In short, the Reapers win if either of you do nothing. Installing the Crucible changed its mind, and so it uses the elevator to bring you up and share its new perspective.

As for another way to kill Shepard:
"To destroy us, jump into that pit/grab those electrodes. You have no other options."

jumpingkaede wrote...
The rest is hindsight reasoning.  (Except for the first in bold).  Or requires information that neither you nor Shepard would have access to at the time.  Some of which requires information that we still don't have today, including anything involving ordering the Reapers to do anything.  

In order for the any of the below to be true you have to know that blowing up the tube actually stops the Reapers.  How Shepard could know that is simply impossible.  He "trusts" the Catalyst on that point.

What are your alternatives? You refuse to trust him and... stand there? Shoot the hologram? Shoot yourself?

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Drexler more recently conceded that there is no need to build anything that even resembles a potential runaway replicator. This would avoid the problem entirely. In a paper in the journal Nanotechnology, he argues that self-replicating machines are needlessly complex and inefficient.

But that's exactly what people did build. Both the Reapers and the Geth are self-replicating machines; while we don't know the circumstances behind the original Reapers' creation, we do know that the Geth's creation/actualization was completely accidental. So we can see that in the ME-verse, merely "not wanting to" build self-replicating machines does not guarantee that none will be built.

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
Secondly, you are aware that, even if we assume grey goo is possible, that it can only threaten one planet at a time right? There's not a lot of stuff to eat in the vacuum of space. So it can't threaten all organic life, which is what we're supposed to be worried about.

For a type 1 civilization, you would be right - the threat would be isolated and could possibly be contained. But without the Reapers, organics would hit type 2 eventually, i.e. galactic travel. The Protheans cracked the secret to mass relays, and if they could do it, then any organic race could - and whatever method they come up with could then be used as a transmission vector for the threat.

This problem is discussed in detail here.

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Which is a hollow argument when there's nothing to prove it will other than base assumptions and the notion of infinite time. Eventually, the sun will engulf the Earth. Should we blow up the sun, or Earth, to prevent this?

No, because there will be many other planets capable of supporting life, and organics will continue long after humanity is extinct. But a technological singularity would end all organic life, everywhere, more assuredly than a thousand engulfing suns.

That's not what a technological singularity is. By definition, we have no idea what would happen if it ever came to pass. 

Unless, of course, it has and the Catalyst has seen it, in which case the species of synthetics was defeated, and the destruction of all organic life it something that does not require the repeated genocide of trillions. Even then, it would need to have occured repeatedly to achieve a solid conclusion. Which only proves the Catalyst wrong even more.

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You could say that about ANYTHING. From the point of the reader, we have literally nothing to prove the Catalyst right, in-game. Literally nothing. Why should I believe what the Catalyst is saying when nothing is says has any substance and everything about it seems deceptive?

That's the beauty - you don't have to believe him! you can stand there and shoot/argue with the hologram until you bleed out or the army is destroyed if you want. Nothing is stopping you.

It's either pretty much everyone dies, the cycle ends, and the fates of all characters are left unknown, or I choose to wait and see, choose your proposed scenario. Works for me, but since I have this massive fleet, the Reapers are defeated without the Mass Relays being destroyed. All important characters make a lucky escape, including Shepard who miracuosly survives yet another explosion. 

That, or I headcanon my own ending. Works for me, since the ending is just that bad. 

From a literary standpoint though, yes, I really should believe him. Making a random character appear that is now so important to the plot, and yet make everything it says easily disbelieved, is horrifying writing. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 19 avril 2012 - 05:16 .

[jumpingkaede]

Optimystic_X wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

At best, you can assume that the Catalyst could have let Shepard bleed out.  I can point to nothing in the game, however, up to that point that indicates the Catalyst has an affirmative means of killing Shepard.  If you can, please do.

Even if you assume Shepard would not bleed out, the Reapers are still decimating the fleet (and the Crucible itself) outside. The latter is evident due to what happens if you wait around too long. The former is evident from Hackett's pre-battle discussion; shield fleet can only hold out for so long, and if they retreat, then "the Reapers bleed us slowly. Conventionally, we have no chance to win without the Crucible."

In short, the Reapers win if either of you do nothing. Installing the Crucible changed its mind, and so it uses the elevator to bring you up and share its new perspective.

As for another way to kill Shepard:
"To destroy us, jump into that pit/grab those electrodes. You have no other options."

I'm a little confused.  Isn't that final means of killing Shepard exactly what the Catalyst says/does?  And a reason I gave for trusting the Catalyst as a bizarre decision?

Optimystic_X wrote...

What are your alternatives? You refuse to trust him and... stand there? Shoot the hologram? Shoot yourself?

That would have been more consistent, I think, yes.  Since all the choices end in Shepard's death.  This is how the conversation could have played out, and how it would play out if I was Shepard:

Shepard:  "Uh, Admiral?  There's an AI here that's telling me if I kill myself it'll stop the Reapers.  Orders, Sir?"

Hackett: "Wait, what?  Yeah, why don't you hold off on that for a bit."

As opposed to the game continuation which would be:  

Hackett: "Sounds legit.  In any case, we have no other choice so nice knowing you, Commander.  You were a tremendous soldier to the cause."

or

Hackett: "Guess I'll leave that up to you.  Nice knowing you, Commander."

Isn't that the sort of internal monologue people are expected to have?

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 19 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[firebreather19]

dreman9999 wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...
You're confusing the situation, and considering absolutes when you really don't need to. Situation: something created the Starchild/Catalyst to solve the organic-synthetic conflict. This resulted in the Reaper creation, and subsequent centuries of harvesting, a series of cycles which comes to an end with Shepard. There was a problem, a solution was implemented. There might not have even been an incident to spur this action, but the fear that synthetics would do this...but like said before, you can just disagree. So...if you believe it, do it, but know if you're wrong you could be damning the universe to extinction.

That' not what I'm debating. That's angruement on whether the reapers do have a reason to do what they are doing. WhatI'm asking is ifthe star child is tellthe truth. The reaper never tried to debate with us on the pont to why they are doing what the aredoing. They just impose them. To say they are doing this nowit to ignore the fact that they are not fully explining themselves, the fact they benifite the most out of the other 2 choicesout side of destroy, the fact that all arguement the starchild use have been brought up by other reapers and he adds nothing new to the arguement, the fact that much of what he states counter what wasstated a fact bfore, and the star child provide no proof to what he says will happen.
This is a race of machines with a history of great deception.....Is the star child really telling the truth?

Youre asking for more reasons to distrust. If te Starchild told you a story about some great catastrophe and how organics barely survived and yadda yadda would you believe him? You'd be asking if he was lying then to. The game comes down to faith. Faith either iorganics or yourself, or no faith in eithe.

[firebreather19]

The fate of the galaxy and the true knowledge of the Catalyst is for Shepard alone.

[The Night Mammoth]

firebreather19 wrote...

The fate of the galaxy and the true knowledge of the Catalyst is for Shepard alone.

And the player.

[PsyrenY]

jumpingkaede wrote...

I'm a little confused.  Isn't that final means of killing Shepard exactly what the Catalyst says/does?  And a reason I gave for trusting the Catalyst as a bizarre decision?

No - he says "to control us, grab those electrodes." Or "to achieve synthesis, jump into that pit."

And most importantly - "to destroy us, shoot that pipe" Information he didn't have to share at all, if you believe him capable of deceit in the first place.

jumpingkaede wrote...
That would have been more consistent, I think, yes.  Since all the choices end in Shepard's death...

One of them does not....

jumpingkaede wrote...
This is how the conversation could have played out, and how it would play out if I was Shepard:

Shepard:  "Uh, Admiral?  There's an AI here that's telling me if I kill myself it'll stop the Reapers.  Orders, Sir?"

Hackett: "Wait, what?  Yeah, why don't you hold off on that for a bit."

As opposed to the game continuation which would be:  

Hackett: "Sounds legit.  In any case, we have no other choice so nice knowing you, Commander.  You were a tremendous soldier to the cause."

or

Hackett: "Guess I'll leave that up to you.  Nice knowing you, Commander."

Isn't that the sort of internal monologue people are expected to have?

Now I'm the one confused. You'd be okay with the Catalyst's options if Hackett told you goodbye first?

[DLClol]

If he was lying then why give us the option to destroy?

"Whats that pipe thing do?"
"Dont worry about it"

[Orthodox Infidel]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Drexler more recently conceded that there is no need to build anything that even resembles a potential runaway replicator. This would avoid the problem entirely. In a paper in the journal Nanotechnology, he argues that self-replicating machines are needlessly complex and inefficient.

But that's exactly what people did build. Both the Reapers and the Geth are self-replicating machines; while we don't know the circumstances behind the original Reapers' creation, we do know that the Geth's creation/actualization was completely accidental. So we can see that in the ME-verse, merely "not wanting to" build self-replicating machines does not guarantee that none will be built.

The Reapers and the Geth are not self replicating machines of the type described in the grey goo problem. They are never depected as "eating" all mass indiscriminately in order to continue manufacturing copies of themselves. That's the problem the grey goo is describing, not machines that decide to kill people in systematic ways with malice aforethought. If there's a plan, you're not describing a grey goo. 

Orthodox Infidel wrote...
Secondly, you are aware that, even if we assume grey goo is possible, that it can only threaten one planet at a time right? There's not a lot of stuff to eat in the vacuum of space. So it can't threaten all organic life, which is what we're supposed to be worried about.

For a type 1 civilization, you would be right - the threat would be isolated and could possibly be contained. But without the Reapers, organics would hit type 2 eventually, i.e. galactic travel. The Protheans cracked the secret to mass relays, and if they could do it, then any organic race could - and whatever method they come up with could then be used as a transmission vector for the threat.

This problem is discussed in detail here.

Right, there could be transmission vectors, but even then the grey goo is stuck gooing up along those vectors. Unless you think there will be an empire that will cover everywhere that there is life with easy transport between every such place, a grey goo situation wouldn't wipe out all life everywhere.

Modifié par Orthodox Infidel, 19 avril 2012 - 05:31 .

[Galifreya]

The Angry One wrote...

You can't, because his assertions are unprovable. He uses logical fallacies, assumptions and circular logic to justify it's psychopathic insanity.

The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

YES. This. All organic life has never been completely eradicated, so their logic is faulty. Just like the Salarians, who "uplifted" the Krogan before their time. So they "had" to resort to the Genophage.

Too many variables. You can't decide the fate of such a large number of beings based on something that MIGHT happen, but has never, to date, actually happened. It's rubbish.

[jumpingkaede]

Optimystic_X wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...
That would have been more consistent, I think, yes.  Since all the choices end in Shepard's death...

One of them does not....

Hindsight reasoning again.  But if I have to preface every comment with it, I guess I will.  As far as Shepard knows at the time he makes the decision, all of the choices end in Shepard's death.

Optimystic_X wrote...
Now I'm the one confused. You'd be okay with the Catalyst's options if Hackett told you goodbye first?

No.  It was an illustration of how ludicrous Shepard's decision-making ability seems to be since he lacks even the most basic of common sense when encountering a clearly non sequitur decision. 

May have missed the mark though.

Trying to make the point that, normally, when someone tells you to kill yourself and stuff will happen you don't just blindly obey.  Especially when the stuff that will happen is a non sequitur to killing yourself.

"Kill yourself and your family will be sad".  Well, okay.  If I want my family to be sad I guess I'll kill myself.

"Kill yourself and the Yankees will win the next world series."  That's... a little confusing.

"Kill yourself and there will be a new DNA framework for all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy."  What?

"Kill yourself and there will be a new DNA framework for all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy and btw this is also the only way to stop the Reapers."  Still.  What?

Optimystic_X wrote...

No - he says "to control us, grab those electrodes." Or "to achieve synthesis, jump into that pit."

Distinction without a difference, since he also adds that Shepard will be dead.  Equivalent to "to control us, kill yourself" and "to achieve synthesis, kill yourself."

No reasoning or explanation is given as to how Shepard's death leads to control or synthesis.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 19 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[dreman9999]

Gallifreya wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

You can't, because his assertions are unprovable. He uses logical fallacies, assumptions and circular logic to justify it's psychopathic insanity.

The mere fact that organic life was never totally exterminated before the Reapers existed disproves everything it claims.

YES. This. All organic life has never been completely eradicated, so their logic is faulty. Just like the Salarians, who "uplifted" the Krogan before their time. So they "had" to resort to the Genophage.

Too many variables. You can't decide the fate of such a large number of beings based on something that MIGHT happen, but has never, to date, actually happened. It's rubbish.

We don't know that. We are finite. All organic life could of been killed off and over time with the creation of new system, life could of redeveloped. Remeber, these are time less machines, they could of seen it. Also, there job is to perserve organic life and keep balance.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 avril 2012 - 05:45 .

[Jeb231]

dreman9999 wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

If you read the leaked script synthesis is the perfect ending.So no he isn't (sadly).

Please, with the air of speculation BW is doing, know one can say what the perfect ending is. Not even a leaked inscript.

Becoming one with the reapers was reserved for the perfect save in the november leak and the ending was awfully similar. Also there is really little point having a character introduced for plot exposition lie to the player and not reveal it during the endings.

At least if I'm wrong I will be pleasantly surprised. Doesn't mean I like it but I'm prepared for it. You should brace yourself too.

Modifié par Jeb231, 19 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[dreman9999]

firebreather19 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...
You're confusing the situation, and considering absolutes when you really don't need to. Situation: something created the Starchild/Catalyst to solve the organic-synthetic conflict. This resulted in the Reaper creation, and subsequent centuries of harvesting, a series of cycles which comes to an end with Shepard. There was a problem, a solution was implemented. There might not have even been an incident to spur this action, but the fear that synthetics would do this...but like said before, you can just disagree. So...if you believe it, do it, but know if you're wrong you could be damning the universe to extinction.

That' not what I'm debating. That's angruement on whether the reapers do have a reason to do what they are doing. WhatI'm asking is ifthe star child is tellthe truth. The reaper never tried to debate with us on the pont to why they are doing what the aredoing. They just impose them. To say they are doing this nowit to ignore the fact that they are not fully explining themselves, the fact they benifite the most out of the other 2 choicesout side of destroy, the fact that all arguement the starchild use have been brought up by other reapers and he adds nothing new to the arguement, the fact that much of what he states counter what wasstated a fact bfore, and the star child provide no proof to what he says will happen.
This is a race of machines with a history of great deception.....Is the star child really telling the truth?

Youre asking for more reasons to distrust. If te Starchild told you a story about some great catastrophe and how organics barely survived and yadda yadda would you believe him? You'd be asking if he was lying then to. The game comes down to faith. Faith either iorganics or yourself, or no faith in eithe.

You do know this is a hard science fiction story? Say faith is the reason to trust him make it even more so that that the starchild is lieing. This is a race of machine that has a history of manipulationg organics. They donwe it with our instincse, our beliefs, and our logic. Why wouldn't the star child use faith to trick us when they have been know to do so before.
Reaper have a history of diseption, nothing the star childsay goes ageinst that fact.If the fate of all life is depended on these option the starchild is give, facts are better to use in thesedecisions, not faith.

[dreman9999]

firebreather19 wrote...

The fate of the galaxy and the true knowledge of the Catalyst is for Shepard alone.

Yes, It for SHepard alone because he is the chosen one, chosen bythe gods to direct the direction ofall organic lifr./endsarcasum.

Really, this an Ai from a race of Machiens with great deception who go on and tells you nothing about the galexy.....You really think he is telling you the truth now.

[Jeb231]

dreman9999 wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...

The fate of the galaxy and the true knowledge of the Catalyst is for Shepard alone.

Yes, It for SHepard alone because he is the chosen one, chosen bythe gods to direct the direction ofall organic lifr./endsarcasum.

Really, this an Ai from a race of Machiens with great deception who go on and tells you nothing about the galexy.....You really think he is telling you the truth now.

Right, so what be the moral of the story if the catalyst was a lieing sack of balls? Let's face it...They've tried to pull a matrix 3 and didn't even manage to do that. Catalyst doesn't have to lift the platform if he wants to kill shepard. Choices are dependant on EMS. Once again it woudn't make sense if the catalyst were in control of the
crucible. Lastly, the simpliest solution is often the correct one.

People are refuting it because the logic used was awkward and the endings were awful. It simply failed to properly perform its task which was plot exposition.

Modifié par Jeb231, 19 avril 2012 - 05:55 .