83 réponses à ce sujet

[Ytook]

Me3 didn't make me care about earth at all, I cared about the citadel, I cared about Tuchunka, I cared about Rannoch but not earth. If they were relying on the fact that I live on earth now why make it do different? Vancouver looked like Ilium, I can't relate to that, that's not the earth I have a connection to, let alone the fact the series doesn't show any of earth untill the short beginning sequence and the short ending mission.

I didn't care about Hogwarts because I'm British and I see castles like that a fair bit, I cared because I cared about the characters within it.

[Nightwriter]

Lyme Eilserv wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The kid was the best they could do. They wanted to use someone you'd failed to save, and if they'd used a dead companion to haunt you, people would just have complained that their Shepard felt nothing for that character and that they resented BioWare for forcing their Shepard to act like he/she was upset about that squaddie's death.

The kid is a random innocent, a child, and a dead child is something relatively everyone can acknowledge as an example of the horrors of war.

My Shepard felt nothing for that kid. If they used the LI for instance, you'd be pretty sure players would have an emotional attachment.

And for those who have no LI?

What you have to keep in mind is that they needed a figure they could apply to anyone. People with LIs, people without LIs, new players, old players, people who saved every squadmate in the suicide mission, people who lost loads of squadmates in the suicide mission.

Lots of people were emotionally unresponsive to the kid, but I honestly think he was the best they could manage.

I would've preferred they give us dreams showing living characters dying or turning into husks as the OP suggests, but again, they seemed to want the dreams to depict dead characters. Thus the kid, and the whispers of deceased squadmates.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 19 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[GreenSoda]

Iconoclaste wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

We live in a time where same sex romance in game is accepted because it reflects evolution of real society. We also see wide acceptance of species differences to reflect tendencies of our real world. I have yet to see the same for children, since the only one we see closely in this game is referred to as "brat", while in our society the UN recently included them as humans like everybody else, to the full extent of laws.

What has a deeper emotional impact to you:

a) your mother dies
you see a random 10year old die on the news

Both are horrible events, but who would seriously pick b ?

This is far from being an adequate comparison to what happens in the game.

It illustrates that BW simply failed to give you *any* reason to care for the kid. They basically said "he's young now you *have* to feel sad about his death".

[wright1978]

GreenSoda wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Mass Effect 3 was made for players with all backgrounds, including those that did not play the previous games. They would not feel the same attachment to crewmates than the one long timers have.

And that's the crux of the matter.

A lot of ME3 fell flat because BW had to take new gamers into account.

Yeah desperate attempts to butcher the story to accomodate new players at the expense of existing players.
So many other potential characters to represent the dead that actually would have had meaning throughout the series if they desperately wanted this concept included. Dead VS would at least have been a character to represent Shep choice leading to death. Instead we get a cheap non-senical set of moments with a non-entity character. Worse still that character then becomes the representative shape of the worst character ever to grace a Bioware game the starbrat.

[Iconoclaste]

GreenSoda wrote...

It illustrates that BW simply failed to give you *any* reason to care for the kid. They basically said "he's young now you *have* to feel sad about his death".

What people don't seem to accept is that they are role playing a character, they are not the character.

What they want for "their" Shepard is a remote concern relatively to what Shepard, as a creature of the Mass Effect Universe, might reasonably want or feel regarding events.

[Iconoclaste]

Analyzing the kid after having completed the game is not an objective starting point to evaluate the purpose or efficiency of this choice as a setup for the story to be revealed. If so many players were upset at the endings, I can imagine their reaction if they had their LI die in the beginning.

[Iconoclaste]

Lyme Eilserv wrote...

So you're arguing that the player should detach him/herself from Shepard's emotions? THAT is the very reason many love this franchise, to experience these emotions.

Did you have those dreams? Did you get any bullet? Did you REALLY fall in love with a game character?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 19 avril 2012 - 12:19 .

[GreenSoda]

Iconoclaste wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...

It illustrates that BW simply failed to give you *any* reason to care for the kid. They basically said "he's young now you *have* to feel sad about his death".

What people don't seem to accept is that they are role playing a character, they are not the character.

What they want for "their" Shepard is a remote concern relatively to what Shepard, as a creature of the Mass Effect Universe, might reasonably want or feel regarding events.

I would actually agree with you on that. Only that I see the further detachment of you and your avatar as a problem and you seem to simply accept it...and it's not only the kid. It's a lot of things ME3 did badly in this regard: The increase in autodialog is another point.

[TookYoCookies]

Iconoclaste wrote...

GreenSoda wrote...

It illustrates that BW simply failed to give you *any* reason to care for the kid. They basically said "he's young now you *have* to feel sad about his death".

What people don't seem to accept is that they are role playing a character, they are not the character.

What they want for "their" Shepard is a remote concern relatively to what Shepard, as a creature of the Mass Effect Universe, might reasonably want or feel regarding events.

 

See my post at the bottom of page 1. (OT from this post)

But no, up until this entry in the series, you had control of the relationships you made. You didnt have to wake legion, i didnt have to wake grunt, i didnt have to do any of the loyalty missions, and i didnt have to romance anybody.. 

But in ME3 you HAVE to care about this completely random child, you know absolutely nothing about. Completely  absent of player input, hence the problem.

[Federally]

In regards to the dream sequences being similar to FEAR, I would say they're nearly identical. The only difference is they take place in a forest and not a demolished building or hallway. It's kind of pathetic how much of BioWare's artistic vision is almost a direct copy of other's.

As stated the kid was used because EA decided ME3 needed to appeal to a broader audience and supposedly any human can sympathise with a child without character development.

If I was on the writing team I would of had Andersen's shuttle get shot down and focused on him instead. Andersen was a role model and sort of father figure for Shep and it is hard to reasonably role play your way out of Shep being affected by his death. The fact it would be a surprise would add to the affect and prevent BioWare from having to make a bunch of extra content based on who you VS is or who died in ME2 and whatever.

Really in summary I think the whole game was ruined by the need to appeal to new customers and this is just one example of that.

[Nightwriter]

Lyme Eilserv wrote...

The best they could manage? I don't agree. If  they use a character that could apply to anyone means he won't have any particular emotional impact. The dreams don't have to be there at the very start. Let players, new and old establish themselves, then start the dream sequences. Use LI, if LI not available use most used companion(s) etc. It would definitely capture more hearts than a random kid. 

Sounds like what I'm hearing is that people wanted the Dream Figure to have personal emotional significance to them.

That would have been great, but it sounds tricky to do, and as a consumer I have 0 knowledge about how practical it would be to implement on a design level. Use an LI? What if the player plans to dump their ME2 LI and switch back to an ME1 LI? What if they're juggling LI's at the moment? How can the game be certain which LI has the most significance to the player?

Use most used companion? What if the player chooses squaddies based on who complements their class the best instead of who they actually like the best?

I suppose it's also possible that creating all these different dreams depicting all these different characters would require an investment of resources that could be devoted elsewhere.

[Iconoclaste]

I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm saying that it serves its purpose to a reasonable extent, for a large audience that accounts for more than just old timers.

[Katosu]

Nightwriter wrote...

The kid was the best they could do. They wanted to use someone you'd failed to save, and if they'd used a dead companion to haunt you, people would just have complained that their Shepard felt nothing for that character and that they resented BioWare for forcing their Shepard to act like he/she was upset about that squaddie's death.

The kid is a random innocent, a child, and a dead child is something relatively everyone can acknowledge as an example of the horrors of war.

In my opinion a simple fix.

New Game players: 
- They get the child for the 'emotional attatchment / horror scenes'
- Add some voices from anyone that died, as a reminder that there are others who are lost. It might increase intruige and spur the player to play the old games.

Old Players:
- Have the decision of wheather or not this kid is added to the haunting be decided via dialogue. There's multiple times where Shepard's decisions are discussed, and making a choice between 'I was thinking about the lost' or 'I was thinking about the young / Earth' or even 'I'm not bothered, blah blah balls of steel' could easily lead into path A above that you get with being haunted by VentKid, or Path B where you're more powerfully/less powerfully haunted by your old friends / those you've been around.

[Flidget]

The one time I actually felt bad about the kid was when Shepard and Garrus have that conversation about how hard it was to have left their homeworlds while they were burning. He worked much better in that "war is hell, ain't it" context, as one of a hundred horrible things going on.

[TookYoCookies]

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lyme Eilserv wrote...

So you're arguing that the player should detach him/herself from Shepard's emotions? THAT is the very reason many love this franchise, to experience these emotions.

Did you have those dreams? Did you get any bullet? Did you REALLY fall in love with a game character?

 

This contradicts your earlier post regarding Sheperd being a "creature" of the ME universe and how your playing a role..  If you did romance someone, got in intense firefights, and did establish friendships (explore dialouge) with characters this was what the game had intended for Sheperd, an emotions and resonance with characters is more than implied. All of these were the result of choice, which is the difference and problem with the inclusion of the child.

[Iconoclaste]

Katosu wrote...

Old Players:
- Have the decision of wheather or not this kid is added to the haunting be decided via dialogue. There's multiple times where Shepard's decisions are discussed, and making a choice between 'I was thinking about the lost' or 'I was thinking about the young / Earth' or even 'I'm not bothered, blah blah balls of steel' could easily lead into path A above that you get with being haunted by VentKid, or Path B where you're more powerfully/less powerfully haunted by your old friends / those you've been around.

Good suggestion. I started a new game with no import from previous ME titles, and found there were just not enough questions to flesh out a new avatar in there, compared to what is imported from previous profiles.

[Iconoclaste]

Lyme Eilserv wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Lyme Eilserv wrote...

So you're arguing that the player should detach him/herself from Shepard's emotions? THAT is the very reason many love this franchise, to experience these emotions.

Did you have those dreams? Did you get any bullet? Did you REALLY fall in love with a game character?

Dreams? Bullet? What are you talking about?

The same way someone would feel attachment to a great book or film is perfectly compatible to what is experienced in a great rpg. Even more so in some cases since you get to make many of the decisions.

I'm sorry if you're incapable of that.

Well, I guess I'm lucky not to just dive too deeply into fantasy to keep detached. It is sometimes helpful to remain objective, and try to understand context.

Sad for you if you take a video game so much into you.

[Carcharoth42]

The first time I watched the kid die, it was an emotionally engaging moment. He represented the loss of innocence and showed that we can't save everyone. Then there were the annoying dream sequences and space brat... Now I hate the kid since he represents the loss of control over my character.

[zarnk567]

Well, I love having a ham-fisted emotional scene with the same kid shoved down my throat 4 different times in the game and not being able to skip thru it..... Yes, Bioware after the first time I know Shepard is supposed to feel for this kid.... still really annoying considering it was poorly done and invoked no emotional response from me as the player what-so-ever.