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I challenge those who hate the ending to read this


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#251
shadowreflexion

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This ending is worthless, period. It violates the very themes and design choices of ME1 and 2, end of story.


Reading that article might change your mind about that.


OP, here's where your thread became derailed. It's because you just tried to force an understanding on this person. You may have done it accidentally but it was still done. Like you're questioning someones ability to understand. Arguing here or anywhere is a waste of breath. So, to save yourself the additional trouble, agree to disagree and move on to better things. 

#252
Malordus

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solarom wrote...

The article is curious, but unfortunately it doesn't translate your point very well. A bunch of theories are thrown, but none of them actually resolve any plot inconsistencies, sudden (and, arguably, incompetently handled) theme shifts and narrative "hiccups" the ending suffers from.

To make an example...

Speculation/Reflection 1.
"The balance of power throughout Mass Effect is firmly grounded in the dynamics of the Kardashev Scale: the Type I Citadel/spacefaring species are threatened by the Type II Reapers, who are interested in preventing the Type I from becoming Type II or Type III (the protheans almost make it – at the end of the first game, it’s revealed that the Conduit is actually a mass relay) and destroying all of the Type 0 and non-civilized life. The Type I species, over millions of years, develop Type III technology, which at the end of Mass Effect 3, finally forces the Type II Reapers to surrender."

Ok, this works. I know of the Kardashev Scale and I understand how, if need be, one could apply it to the ME universe.

Conclusion 1.
"With this daunting difference in scope between the Citadel races’ concerns and the Reapers’ concerns, it’s no surprise that the Reapers are skeptical that organics would ever understand their motives. Ironically it may also be why audiences felt alienated by the ending.

This is why Shepard’s sense of ethics applies perfectly throughout most of the game, but is turned completely upside down when confronted with the potential for the known species to become a Type II civilization – thus why the ending throws out practically everything prior to it. It’s understandable that the emotional effect of Shepard’s epiphany is lost to people who haven’t given any thought to the significance of this transition."


Ok, so I assume (I'm not sure, because the transition between speculation and the conclusion the author draws from it is far from obvious) the author is trying to show how coming into contacts with something too advanced to comprehend (eg. Sovereign in ME1, the Catalyst + the Crucible and the options it presents) can serve to create a sense of alienation within the character, and by extension the player.

To this I have to say, yes. So what?

An encounter with Sovereign was one of the highest emotional points in gaming history for me personally. I did feel threatened, creeped out and alienated, and it was fantastic. I didn't alienate me as a player towards ME1. So a sense of alienation, when introduces properly, can actually be a good thing, no?

Similarly, the Synthesis option in the ME3 ending wasn't the reason I didn't like the ending, and let's be honest, you don't even need to know of the Kardashev Scale to comprehend it at least on a metaphorical level. I have some degree of understanding of quantum mechanics (from reading Hawking etc.) while not being a scientist, all through metaphors and basic knowledge of physics.

So yeah, the idea of Synthesis or, say, Control could seem repulsive to Shepard and undesirable to some of the players, but a) not due to their inability to understand them, and B) what does it prove? Most of the qualms people have with the options you get at the end were not with the options themselves, but with how they were introduced. I could see how the idea of Synthesis could be beautiful and desirable, if not for the horrific case of Space Magic in its explanation. Or how the Control could actually seem as a necessary evil, if prior to those events we were shown at least some evidence that TIM might actually be right in his obsession. All three endings could've been presented with more sense and coherence, and the fact that they weren't is IMO the main reason people didn't like them, and not because those players aren't educated enough.

Most importantly, the article's reasoning fixes none of the ending's actual issues. What it's been talking about mostly are problems of tone and theme, and most people could overlook and/or forgive that if the plot worked really, really well. Sadly, the introduction of the Catalyst basically troughs all logic out of the window, and I don't think there's enough scientific lingo in the world to explain why hasn't Casper (who was there the whole time, apparently) activated the Citadel relay back in ME1. That's just one of many, many giant plot holes that I personally consider unacceptable in a work of art that wants to qualify as science-fiction, a genre where details matter more than anywhere else, and the sheer presence of such holes makes the idea that Bioware discarded/replaced important concepts only because Hudson/Walters assumed the players' "familiarity with some rather esoteric concepts" seem very far-fetched.

And that's also why I think the article, thoughtful as it is, is basically another Indoctrination Theory. Not thematically, of course. It just seems that a critical, intelligent person who loves ME series very much and doesn't want to be disappointed with it is left with no other choice but to rationalize and create long, elaborate explanations to salvage the mess of its finale.



You, sir, I applaud. Took the words right out of my mouth. I will add one other thought to this.

Story. ME is a digital book. Game yes, but it also tells a very compelling, gripping tale of characters we have grown to love. It is a story - and as such, is subject to the very same rules as any other book. In fact, being Sci-fi, it is subject to more; namely the laws of physics etc but as you touch on this above I wont go into it.

One of the single-biggest no-no's is 'cheating' the reader. Never should this be done - if a book does, it has failed and deserves to be thrown in the bin. Sadly, ME3 did just this. It cheated the player - because the ending made no sense. I will say what has been said now many times: we should not need to have any familiarity with Astrobiology on ANY level to understand the ending, and to suggest in any shape that it is required is a failure.

And going back to story and one of it's core components; characters - we have spent 100 hours with the likes of Garrus, Tali, Ashley, Wrex etc etc etc, and they see fit to leave us with, in some cases, not even a few seconds of cinematic to explain their fate? Totally unacceptable.

To the OP and anyone who thinks it is acceptable for Bioware to leave the ending so incomprehensible as to require further reading and study, I present an example:

Imagine picking up the last book in a great series, getting to the end and saying 'Hmm, that made no sense at all.' You then put it face-down, and discover the following embossed on the back cover:

'Please read X, Y and Z to understand how this story ended.'

I'd be pretty peeved, wouldn't you?

#253
Tapkomet

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OK, I read the article. It doesn't explain all that much. I mean really, TIM does better at convincing Shepard. I suppose the author is indocrinated, and possibly OP, too.

#254
Lookout1390

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When the audience has to come up with their own ideas and theories to truly understand something in the end, it was poorly written to begin with.

If bioware could just realize this, and actually fix/change the ending, I would take back everything bad I said about the ending. The fact that they are stone-walling this tragedy, is just something I can't comprehend.

You don't have to be a professional literature analyst to see the gaping plot-holes in the story.

#255
sp0ck 06

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The Angry One wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

You however, repeatedly demonstrate an extreme lack of respect and civility for anyone who's views are not exactly in line with yours.  So just shut up, please.


Are you trying to be ironic?

Don't get upset because I see through you, you've made multiple posts attempting to defend the ending before, and raging when people disagreed with you.
Now you're claiming you want "civil discussion" and this article will "make people feel better". Please.
It's yet more speculation that means absolutely nothing, and has no bearing on the ending.


lol you "see through me"?  Whats there to see, I'm pretty transparent.  The only times I've lost myself to raging haven't been because people disagreed with me, its because I dislike being talked to like I'm an idiot or "not a real fan" because I thought there were some good nuggets buried in the endings that are worth bringing up.  I don't want to degrade into flaming back and forth with you so that's all I'll say bout that.

#256
sp0ck 06

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shadowreflexion wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This ending is worthless, period. It violates the very themes and design choices of ME1 and 2, end of story.


Reading that article might change your mind about that.


OP, here's where your thread became derailed. It's because you just tried to force an understanding on this person. You may have done it accidentally but it was still done. Like you're questioning someones ability to understand. Arguing here or anywhere is a waste of breath. So, to save yourself the additional trouble, agree to disagree and move on to better things. 


All I meant to say was what can it hurt to give it a chance?  

#257
NM_Che56

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[quote]BattleVisor wrote...


[quote]Master Che wrote... [/quote]


I'll change the analogy slightly and add to it

Analogy:

Parents: Jimmy...Bobby, for Christmas, I'm going to give you each the most amazing gift! If you do all of the things you're supposed to do this year, then this gift will blow your mind! If you don't, you'll still get a gift, but it won't be as spectacular! You can do these tasks however you wish, but know that it will change the type of gift you'll get on Christmas day. It will still be amazing, though!

Jimmy: Thanks! *does everything (though diffferently to Bobby) and then some*

Bobby: Cool! *does everything (though differently to Jimmy) and then some*

Betty: Sure. *Does the bare mininum 

...Christmas Day

Parents; Jimmy...Bobby. Betty..since you both did everything that was asked of you, we're going to give you the gift we promised each of you...but one more thing. Do you like Ginger Bread, Peanut Butter or Chocolate Chip Cookies?

Jimmy: Chocolate Chip
Bobby: Peanut Butter
Betty: Ginger Bread

Parents: OK! Here you go!

Jimmy: *opens a present with red paper*, it's a toy with a bunch of missing pieces.
Bobby; *opens a present with blue paper*, it's the same toy with a bunch of missing pieces.
Betty: 
 *opens a present with green paper*, it's the same toy with a bunch of missing pieces. 


Parents: Imagine what this could be and what you could do with it?! The gift is YOUR IMAGINATION!





...Christmas ruined.[/quote]
[/quote]

What did Betty expect? She's adopted.













Disclaimer: I in no way am ridiculing adopted kids or parents who adopt.

#258
Kajan451

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

 If you hated/disliked/didn't understand/were let down by the ending, read this editorial.

http://galacticpillo...ffect-3-ending/

It really might make you look differently at not just the ending but the whole of ME3.  If you want to love the conclusion to the series but just can't, please give this a read.  It's long but worth it.  


1) Thought: Its gonna be a waste of time to read
2) Read it
3) Thought: It was a waste of time to read
4) Post: Give me my time back

That whole editorial is once again just written from a point of view of someone that doesn't get what was wrong with the ending. A little research.. heck there are even Youtube videos about it that doesn't even make it necessary to read stuff... and you could have saved me a lot of time.

Oh well, nothing is going to give it back to me. But at least it wasn't hours like ME stole from me.

#259
dreaming_raithe

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Read through the article. It's well-written grammatically, but in terms of the actual argument, it falls flat. The scale of civilizations works great as a way to structure the setting of the game, and you can ultimately tell Bioware had that in mind when designing the universe.

But the ending does not necessarily follow from that premise. Given the other thematic elements from other works (like Lovecraft) that Mass Effect taps into as well, you could make an equally long post arguing that the ending is ridiculous. You can incorporate into such an argument long-standing facets of literary theory (namely, the hero's journey, but also basic plot structure, etc.) to argue on much firmer ground that the ending is a poor ending for the story we've been given.

Personally, if the ending were better in tone with the game itself, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it's not. And that's a narrative problem, not one of whether the audience reads enough astrobiology. (Which, for what it's worth, I try to at least keep tabs on in a cursory manner). Bioware can likely use the Extended Cut to fix some of the glaring issues, but I'm not convinced that they can resolve the narrative and thematic elements present in the ending with "clarification."

Time will tell.

#260
Lyrebon

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

Mylia Stenetch wrote...

LucasShark wrote...


That was sort of the point of the example: there's nothing wrong with people "liking" poor quality products, but they have to simaltainously admit that it is their opinion and the product is still of poor quality.  People can like the aste of McDonalds, but it is still objectively bad for you.

What I was taking issue with in the OP's posts, and in AAA gaming in general is this: claiming "I like it, therefore it is objectively good", which is a logical falicy.



I did not see him say in the post stating it is objectivly good. We may see different things. I will leave it at that.


I felt I was getting that from the article. His treatment of the theories expressed on these forums is, at best, callous and dangerously hypocritical of his own nitpicking to support his own theory as objective. It sounds arrogant; I don't know if he was intending to or not.


Just to be clear, I didn't write that article.


I never said you did...

#261
NM_Che56

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

sp0ck 06,

No one wants to guess or theorize as to what happened at the end or afterwards. We want to know. We did not pay $50-$79 on this just to imagine an ending. We wanted to see the conclusion. This isn't a conclusion. It is speculation of a conclusion. This is not what we were promised.


I'm not disputing that.  I agree we did not see the conclusion.  That doesn't mean the ending was objectively bad.  I just means Bioware did a terrible job of presenting it and screwed up in not showing us any kind of aftermath.

A lot of people have rightfully pointed out the endings are all the same, just different colored explosions.  This is true in that basically the same cinematic plays with a different color.  But the endings are drastically different.  We just aren't shown any of the consequences.

It was a colossal screw-up on Bioware's part, because they had an ending that was going to be controversial no matter what, but tipped the balance to the nth degree of negative reaction when they failed to include any closure, no epilogue, no look back on the players choices, no explanation of what happened, and then compounded all that by having the final cutscene raise more questions than it answers.

I'm just trying to shed a little bit of positive light on it.



No. I get that.  It's all about presentation. If they expand on what's there and make an effort and give us an ending that is a product of both the last choice and the final choice AND addressing the major questions that are out there now because of the endings, then I think the endings will at least be digestable. 

#262
mauro2222

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.... errrm, ahem...

I need to learn about astrobiology, wich is speculation (even if we can use Earth's lifeforms as medium point), so I can understand the ending by speculating about it? :huh:

Modifié par mauro2222, 19 avril 2012 - 06:57 .


#263
daecath

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Very well written, but I have a few problems.

First, your section on foreshadowing. You point to the conversation with Sovereign as evidence that the ending was foreshadowed. There is nothing in there to suggest that the reapers were created by some advanced race, nothing in there to suggest that they do this to prevent organic destruction by synthetics, and nothing in there that suggests that they have any motive other than destruction.

Second, you do realize that you're doing exactly what IT proponents are doing right? Taking an existing situation and trying to read more into it than what is there. Whether it's a discussion of "inky shapes, dream shrubs, and the form of the child" or "Drake's equation, technological singularity, and Kardashev Scale", the results are the same. Both sides instinctively recognize that the ending is awful, but both sides refuse to accept that something so bad could have come from something so good. So they rationalize. IT proponents say it was all a dream, while you say it was all a brilliant scientific statement that draws from extremely complex scientific theories related to the nature of intelligent life in the universe and technological advancement.

The fact is, it is simply badly written. Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually right, all things being equal. They screwed up. Whether from lack of time, or pressure from EA, or a change in procedure from how the rest of the story was written, or severe head trauma, or some other unknown - they screwed up. Pure and simple. They ignored every rule of writing good literature to "borrow" an ending from another game.

#264
crappyjazzy

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Titan_HQ wrote...



crappyjazzy wrote...

sp0ck 06 you don't actually believe the majority of respondents actually read that article even if they say they did?

My friends who have all enjoyed the game and loved the ending are all doctors, well read, they love science and science fiction. Maybe that played a part.

Perhaps Bioware thought they had that kind of audience (in my experience, they do) but it obviously wasn't for everyone.

At any rate, not knowing something whether it's considered esoteric or not does not make someone stupid.


Coincidence. Having a different job title does not make you better or smarter than someone else. Which is what you are suggesting here., intetionally or otherwise.

This is an odd phenomenom I have seen all across BSN in paticular, that stating you are, or know people with qualifications or fnacy job titles somehow justifies anything that comes out of your mouth.
Actually that gives me a thought, Imma put my CV in my sig so that everybody will believe everything I say!


You can infer whatever you want, but I'm only stating a fact about the friends I have who play this game.  I have mentioned before that the people I know who play this game have enjoyed it, including the "ending".  I state that they are doctors with an interest in science because it has relevance to this thread.  I have not in any other post ever used the degrees of my friends or my own to bolster my view.

I can't help that you're a little touchy about the subject but what you are accusing me of is baseless.

#265
Averdi

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The article did not help, I'm afraid. There's too many extrapolations and assumtions in the article's logic for it to be convincing. It's simple found a way to explain the cycle. I could simply posit that reapers have hit a development plateau and have adopted the strategy of growing and harvesting organic civalizations to boost their own advancement.

Asside from the science, the storytelling of the ending and its disconnect from the rest of the narrative remains terrible.

Also, given then 21st century theories are used to construct this explanation, why would the reapers believe that Shepard wouldn't understand it?

#266
Linksys17

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Pro ender: you didnt like the ending because you didnt understand it

Retaker: you liked the ending because you didn't understand what was wrong with it

EA: mass effect 3 causing the most misunderstanding with 679 billion perfect scores!!! Best game of all time award: IGN

#267
Lookout1390

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An open-to-speculation-ending, is the biggest cheapshot when it comes to writing material.

not to mention it's outright ****ing lazy.

It was rushed, ME3 had all the potential in the world to truly be one of the most amazing sci-fi series in our lifetime, but we are stuck with this mess forever.

After seeing EA's stock as of lately, maybe the EA is still on track on going bankrupt sometime this year or next.

#268
firebreather19

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This is getting ridiculous. I thought I was reaching too deep with my thoughts about the Catalyst, but at some point you need to take a step back, realize its a video game, and just move on. It's a story...take what you can from it, and continue. I took from it that not all decisions we make will have obvious consequences, and just because things don't always turn out the way we want doesn't mean we should ever stop fighting.

Greatest. Game. Ever.

#269
Malordus

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This ending is worthless, period. It violates the very themes and design choices of ME1 and 2, end of story.


Reading that article might change your mind about that.


OP, here's where your thread became derailed. It's because you just tried to force an understanding on this person. You may have done it accidentally but it was still done. Like you're questioning someones ability to understand. Arguing here or anywhere is a waste of breath. So, to save yourself the additional trouble, agree to disagree and move on to better things. 


All I meant to say was what can it hurt to give it a chance?  


OP...look. I understand what you are trying to do, and it is admirable. You are doing your best to see the good in a bad situation and trying to share that with others. I am not slating you for that in the least.

The trouble is....we gave it a chance the first time round, when we all played it. The ending should have made sense then and it didnt. No article will ever change it; I am sorry. It was poor storytelling, a simple, undeniable fact that cannot be altered now.

#270
garf

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

 If you hated/disliked/didn't understand/were let down by the ending, read this editorial.

http://galacticpillo...ffect-3-ending/

It really might make you look differently at not just the ending but the whole of ME3.  If you want to love the conclusion to the series but just can't, please give this a read.  It's long but worth it.  


Challenge accepted. Read article. found some of it's estoric gobbly ****** fascinating. but much of it explaining what didn't need to be explained. An ending that needs that much erudite BS piled on it to make sense isn't. Nor does it address my principal concern with player agency. And finally it doesn't make me feel any better about my emotive reaction to what I was presented.

Sorry. Fail.

#271
balance5050

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crappyjazzy wrote...

Titan_HQ wrote...



crappyjazzy wrote...

sp0ck 06 you don't actually believe the majority of respondents actually read that article even if they say they did?

My friends who have all enjoyed the game and loved the ending are all doctors, well read, they love science and science fiction. Maybe that played a part.

Perhaps Bioware thought they had that kind of audience (in my experience, they do) but it obviously wasn't for everyone.

At any rate, not knowing something whether it's considered esoteric or not does not make someone stupid.


Coincidence. Having a different job title does not make you better or smarter than someone else. Which is what you are suggesting here., intetionally or otherwise.

This is an odd phenomenom I have seen all across BSN in paticular, that stating you are, or know people with qualifications or fnacy job titles somehow justifies anything that comes out of your mouth.
Actually that gives me a thought, Imma put my CV in my sig so that everybody will believe everything I say!


You can infer whatever you want, but I'm only stating a fact about the friends I have who play this game.  I have mentioned before that the people I know who play this game have enjoyed it, including the "ending".  I state that they are doctors with an interest in science because it has relevance to this thread.  I have not in any other post ever used the degrees of my friends or my own to bolster my view.

I can't help that you're a little touchy about the subject but what you are accusing me of is baseless.


I doubt you have friends :o

#272
crappyjazzy

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firebreather19 wrote...

This is getting ridiculous. I thought I was reaching too deep with my thoughts about the Catalyst, but at some point you need to take a step back, realize its a video game, and just move on. It's a story...take what you can from it, and continue. I took from it that not all decisions we make will have obvious consequences, and just because things don't always turn out the way we want doesn't mean we should ever stop fighting.

Greatest. Game. Ever.


Agree.  I've played lots of great games, and I am starting to feel that this is likely the best ever.

#273
crappyjazzy

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balance5050 wrote...

crappyjazzy wrote...

Titan_HQ wrote...



crappyjazzy wrote...

sp0ck 06 you don't actually believe the majority of respondents actually read that article even if they say they did?

My friends who have all enjoyed the game and loved the ending are all doctors, well read, they love science and science fiction. Maybe that played a part.

Perhaps Bioware thought they had that kind of audience (in my experience, they do) but it obviously wasn't for everyone.

At any rate, not knowing something whether it's considered esoteric or not does not make someone stupid.


Coincidence. Having a different job title does not make you better or smarter than someone else. Which is what you are suggesting here., intetionally or otherwise.

This is an odd phenomenom I have seen all across BSN in paticular, that stating you are, or know people with qualifications or fnacy job titles somehow justifies anything that comes out of your mouth.
Actually that gives me a thought, Imma put my CV in my sig so that everybody will believe everything I say!


You can infer whatever you want, but I'm only stating a fact about the friends I have who play this game.  I have mentioned before that the people I know who play this game have enjoyed it, including the "ending".  I state that they are doctors with an interest in science because it has relevance to this thread.  I have not in any other post ever used the degrees of my friends or my own to bolster my view.

I can't help that you're a little touchy about the subject but what you are accusing me of is baseless.


I doubt you have friends :o


Um okay.

#274
sp0ck 06

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Malordus wrote...


OP...look. I understand what you are trying to do, and it is admirable. You are doing your best to see the good in a bad situation and trying to share that with others. I am not slating you for that in the least.

The trouble is....we gave it a chance the first time round, when we all played it. The ending should have made sense then and it didnt. No article will ever change it; I am sorry. It was poor storytelling, a simple, undeniable fact that cannot be altered now.


Fair enough, thanks for being cool.

#275
Swisspease

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Read the article, still don't like the endings. Not because I'm not intelligent enough to "get" them since I do have a college degree in Biology, but because they were horribly done. If a video game company expects their customers to have to know things like that are posted in the article then they will not be around long because they are shrinking their own customer base.