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I challenge those who hate the ending to read this


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#601
Blind2Society

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This is going to be a considerably long post and thanks to those who actually read it.;)

      
I want to start by saying the Catalyst was a completely pointless addition and does, in fact, completely undo much of what we know about the Reapers. Most notably, of course, what we learned in our dialogs with Harbinger. It seems to me that he was added simply because a couple of bafoons couldn't come up with any solid ending options without it. Or, they came up with the options we have and thought they were so good they absolutely had to make them work.

       See, much of what we know is thrown out the window by the fact that, now, there is this thing that completely controls them. I seems they added this crap just to allow for the control option. The addition of the catalyst as a self aware and intelligent thing and not just some inanimate object was a drastically bad move in my opinion which then would again make it pointless as the crucible itsel would render it so. The whole last conversation should have been between Shepard and Harbinger. In fact, concerning the catalyst/crucible and the endings, a fan made a thread with some great ideas. Again, just replace the catalyst convo with a Habinger convo. Now, onto the article itself.

       The authors explanation of the Reapers' motivation would have been fine. However, it is implied, and perhaps even clearly stated, that the Reapers' motivation is that AI specifically are the danger. Because AI are not organics they don't see a purpose in them and therfore will destroy all organic life. The things wrong with these ideas the Reapers have have been stated over and over and I don't see a need to reiterate them.

       I will say, however, taking such drastic actions to prevent a possibility is overreacting and, in fact, crazy. I'll relate it to something we can all relate to in one way or another and this will prove just how crazy it is.

       Muslim terrorists are very dangerous and there is a strong possibility the will carry out more attacks that kill many innocent people. With the mindeset of the Reapers we should just wip all Muslims from the face of the planet because there is a posibility that they will kill people. See, like I said, crazy. It is the same mindet of people like Adolf Hitler, and I'm sure we can all agree that he was a maniac. I think the devs saw this and made the Reapers out to be very bad. However, in the end they threw that out the window and said, OK they have a point, you agree and here are your options to deal with it even though they don't deal with it. Yeah I know, pretty dumb isn't it?

Now I would like to specifically discuss section 3.2.

       How can control be considered the best possible option? It may be the best of the three but is certainly not the best course of action. The author uses the theory that all life will be destroyed by something worse than the Reapers to justify this. However, one, this is not the case it is something equivalent to the Reapers will destroy all life (:blink:) and two, none of the options actually do anything to prevent such an event from coming to pass, including control. The only way to prevent it is the Reapers harvesting all advanced life. Which again, is a drastic overreaction to a posibility.

       Here I would also like to comment on a quote of the author. "...it's actually imperative for there to be a "glactic police" such as the Reapers."   No, it's not imperative because there are only tow possible techniques for such a group to use to prevent the possible destruction of all life and both are unacceptable. One, harvest all advanced life and two, full time surveillance of every advanced living thing in the galaxy. Both are utterly wrong and the second is impossible. Once again, it is not iperative to overreact to a posibility.

       Also, the fact that the author thinks it imperative says to me that he, in Shepards position, would say yes Reapers, please harvest us to prevent something that may or may not happen and we may be able to stop should it come to pass. This to me is a foolish midset. It also appears to be a foolish mindset to most people who finished the game as the lack of an option to tell the Catalyst to go screw is one of the biggest complaints.

       I would now like to comment on the authors comment on the synthesis ending. He says. "Either was, it's a symbiotic relationship, not a one-sided assimilation the way that the construction of a Reaper is."

       It doesn't matter if it is preferable (is submission not preferable to extinction? No, it isn't. We will fight for our right to live free.) it is still a very bad thing. It destroys people's free will and their right to decide for themselves if synthesis is something they would like. This is made even worse by the fact that it prevents nor provides anything in the context of the story.

       Look at it like this, what if today, the world governments forced every human being to get surgery to install a metal skull to prevent head injuries that may or may not happen. It's wrong and it more than likely won't even prevent said injuries. It's the same as synthesis, unquestionably wrong and completely unacceptable.

       As for acceptable ending options, if the three in game were the only possible options, synthesis would = renegade, control would = nuetral and destroy (Reapers only) would = paragon. However, the way it should have been, control = nuetral, synthesis = renegade and paragon would be telling the Reapers to go screw and defeat them conventionally. EMS would then play it's part in deciding how successful each choice is.

    That is all I feel the need, or desire, to discuss. And this post is long enough as it is.;)

#602
Crocmon

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

This ending is worthless, period. It violates the very themes and design choices of ME1 and 2, end of story.


Reading that article might change your mind about that.


No it won't. Nothing will dry my face of the swirly I was given for falling in love with the Mass Effect universe.

No amount of underground abstract art, Neutral Milk Hotel, or Macs will stop me from feeling like the abused significant other of some backwards, hypocritical hipster ****** who decided I wasn't a real person because I actually cared.

You don't just interpret the kind of terrible that was the ME3 endings away.

#603
Ariq

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So...those reasons for why it was okay to drop all of the previously established themes while violating narrative continuity...we'll be hearing those soon? They're missing in the linked article.

#604
bobafett007

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Iconoclaste wrote...

bobafett007 wrote...

Iconoclaste wrote...

Banelash wrote...

Why don't the reapers just wipe out ALL organic life, if their only purpose is just to prevent organics from creating synthetic that will wipe out all life? Won't the extinction of all life help to prevent any creation of synthetic? Why leave organic alive to allow such a possibility?

That is why their logic suck. If they had stuck to the original dark matter reason, harvesting civilisations to create more reapers to deal with it, that would make more sense than preventing organic from creating synthetic

I agree with that, and I asked that same question a few times. The first answer that came back was "They are trying to maintain a fragile balance".

You can ask the next question, like I did, but it will get nowhere from there, since the story / Codex doesn't say more.


it's a cycle to keep organic life alive. how does wiping them all out accomplish that? wtf??

Why? Do Reapers enjoy flowers?


all except for sunflowers.

#605
Rafe34

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In fact, the only reason I felt the ending was decent and not great is because there were no surprises the way there were in a game like Portal.


Guy's a moron. No surprises. Really.

And his entire argument is undermined by the fact that this was NOT the original ending for the trilogy. Karpshyn's dark energy ending was the original ending. It is a fact that this ending was changed from the original one.

Not to mention, the entirety of these types of "theories" put forward by Hawking and his ilk during the last twenty years are based on no evidence at all. 

It is pure speculation- wait a minute. :blink:

I got it now! Steven Hawking wrote the ending!

Modifié par Rafe34, 20 avril 2012 - 03:46 .


#606
Wolven_Soul

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Sorry, but almost everything in that article is stuff the pro-enders have already argued.  And it did not make for any more effective an arguement in that article than it did before.  Besides which, it is all just more assumption and speculation. 

The ending is still bad.  This did nothing to change my mind about that.

#607
Wolven_Soul

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Rafe34 wrote...


In fact, the only reason I felt the ending was decent and not great is because there were no surprises the way there were in a game like Portal.




And his entire argument is undermined by the fact that this was NOT the original ending for the trilogy. Karpshyn's dark energy ending was the original ending. It is a fact that this ending was changed from the original one.


This.  The idea the article discusses that the ending we got was foreshadowed is ridiculuous considering something entirely different was originally planned.  Sadly, the former lead writer left.  Possibly because he saw something like this coming.

#608
RadiantLegend

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I'm just going to start at his type 0,1,2,3 civilization stuff. So you mean to tell me a type 1 over millions of years skipped type 2 and came up with a type 3 weapon but the type 2 never saw it been built that many years. So I'm going to assume in the next million years or so, a cockroach would be able to build a teleportation device to make me surrender to it.

#609
SparkyRich

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"It is not a thing you can comprehend." Except that this article and all of the theory behind it is over a hundred years old by the time the Reapers tell us this. Stupid Reapers, plot-tricks are for kids!

#610
Rafe34

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Oh yeah, and here's another quote that shows he's a moron:

The balance of power throughout Mass Effect is firmly grounded in the dynamics of the Kardashev Scale: the Type I Citadel/spacefaring species are threatened by the Type II Reapers, who are interested in preventing the Type I from becoming Type II or Type III (the protheans almost make it – at the end of the first game, it’s revealed that the Conduit is actually a mass relay)


THE PROTHEANS DIDN'T BUILD THE CITADEL.

This is yet another person who played ME3 and didn't play ME2 or ME1, like 90% of the pro-enders. The ending doesn't hit you as hard or with as many ridiculous plotholes if you don't know the lore the game spends the first two games hammering into you.

Nor is that the given motivation for the Reapers, even in ME3. The motivation is to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics, it has nothing to do with Type 1/Type 2/Type 3 civilizations.

Modifié par Rafe34, 20 avril 2012 - 03:50 .


#611
bobafett007

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I think we can all agree that all these theories weren't brought up till that last scene. these were things you were never told was a threat till the Catalyst. all you were trying to do was destroy the Reapers plain and simple, and all of a sudden you have to put a stop to some bigger picture that was never mentioned EVER. that I can agree is BS. If they wanted to do this kind of ending it definitely should have led up to it, but didn't to any degree. So it couldn't help but feel tacked on. But I can learn to live with it if they would just fix STUPID CONTINUITY ERRORS.

#612
Rafe34

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Oh man. Did this guy even play ME3? This one isn't even consistent with ME3's lore.

But the Illusive Man was disinterested in the Crucible because it isn’t needed to control the Reapers; only the Catalyst is. Therefore, the Catalyst was not involved in the paragon ending, and the mass relays should not have been shown to be destroyed as they were.


Wait... what? Only the Catalyst, and not the Crucible, is needed to control the Reapers, so the Catalyst was not involved in the ending where you control the Reapers.

It's the Catalyst's logic all over again!

Modifié par Rafe34, 20 avril 2012 - 03:54 .


#613
Wolven_Soul

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Can't tell if the op thinks we don't understand what the ending was trying to be about or just wants to give us something to read.


Just something to read.

But it seems most people are so firmly entrenched in their hated of the ending that it was a pointless endeavor.  Oh well.  :blink:


It is not that we are so entrenched, it is just plain and simply, this article did not help. 

#614
MongoNYC

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

 If you hated/disliked/didn't understand/were let down by the ending, read this editorial.

http://galacticpillo...ffect-3-ending/

It really might make you look differently at not just the ending but the whole of ME3.  If you want to love the conclusion to the series but just can't, please give this a read.  It's long but worth it.  


Dude, I shelled out my hard earned $$ to play a video game and get closure in this series, not to study modern theoretical astrophysics.  So, I shouldn't have to read pages of extra scientific journals (materials that MAY OR MAY NOT have beeninvolved in the creation of this ending) to get that closure. 

And I guarantee you: after the original ending was leaked last fall, Casey and Mac didn't run to the collective works of Hawking, Sagan or Kaku for inspiration on writing a new one.  They didn't look to the Kardashev Scale to fill in the blanks.  You're giving them too much credit.

They went to their own collective hubris-filled egos for a solution.  And they failed miserably. 

Modifié par MongoNYC, 20 avril 2012 - 04:06 .


#615
DJBare

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Who was the author really trying to convince?, after reading "some" of the blog, my conclusion is the author was attempting to convince himself.

#616
Cobra's_back

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Blind2Society wrote...

This is going to be a considerably long post and thanks to those who actually read it.;)

      
I want to start by saying the Catalyst was a completely pointless addition and does, in fact, completely undo much of what we know about the Reapers. Most notably, of course, what we learned in our dialogs with Harbinger. It seems to me that he was added simply because a couple of bafoons couldn't come up with any solid ending options without it. Or, they came up with the options we have and thought they were so good they absolutely had to make them work.

       See, much of what we know is thrown out the window by the fact that, now, there is this thing that completely controls them. I seems they added this crap just to allow for the control option. The addition of the catalyst as a self aware and intelligent thing and not just some inanimate object was a drastically bad move in my opinion which then would again make it pointless as the crucible itsel would render it so. The whole last conversation should have been between Shepard and Harbinger. In fact, concerning the catalyst/crucible and the endings, a fan made a thread with some great ideas. Again, just replace the catalyst convo with a Habinger convo. Now, onto the article itself.

       The authors explanation of the Reapers' motivation would have been fine. However, it is implied, and perhaps even clearly stated, that the Reapers' motivation is that AI specifically are the danger. Because AI are not organics they don't see a purpose in them and therfore will destroy all organic life. The things wrong with these ideas the Reapers have have been stated over and over and I don't see a need to reiterate them.

       I will say, however, taking such drastic actions to prevent a possibility is overreacting and, in fact, crazy. I'll relate it to something we can all relate to in one way or another and this will prove just how crazy it is.

       Muslim terrorists are very dangerous and there is a strong possibility the will carry out more attacks that kill many innocent people. With the mindeset of the Reapers we should just wip all Muslims from the face of the planet because there is a posibility that they will kill people. See, like I said, crazy. It is the same mindet of people like Adolf Hitler, and I'm sure we can all agree that he was a maniac. I think the devs saw this and made the Reapers out to be very bad. However, in the end they threw that out the window and said, OK they have a point, you agree and here are your options to deal with it even though they don't deal with it. Yeah I know, pretty dumb isn't it?

Now I would like to specifically discuss section 3.2.

       How can control be considered the best possible option? It may be the best of the three but is certainly not the best course of action. The author uses the theory that all life will be destroyed by something worse than the Reapers to justify this. However, one, this is not the case it is something equivalent to the Reapers will destroy all life (:blink:) and two, none of the options actually do anything to prevent such an event from coming to pass, including control. The only way to prevent it is the Reapers harvesting all advanced life. Which again, is a drastic overreaction to a posibility.

       Here I would also like to comment on a quote of the author. "...it's actually imperative for there to be a "glactic police" such as the Reapers."   No, it's not imperative because there are only tow possible techniques for such a group to use to prevent the possible destruction of all life and both are unacceptable. One, harvest all advanced life and two, full time surveillance of every advanced living thing in the galaxy. Both are utterly wrong and the second is impossible. Once again, it is not iperative to overreact to a posibility.

       Also, the fact that the author thinks it imperative says to me that he, in Shepards position, would say yes Reapers, please harvest us to prevent something that may or may not happen and we may be able to stop should it come to pass. This to me is a foolish midset. It also appears to be a foolish mindset to most people who finished the game as the lack of an option to tell the Catalyst to go screw is one of the biggest complaints.

       I would now like to comment on the authors comment on the synthesis ending. He says. "Either was, it's a symbiotic relationship, not a one-sided assimilation the way that the construction of a Reaper is."

       It doesn't matter if it is preferable (is submission not preferable to extinction? No, it isn't. We will fight for our right to live free.) it is still a very bad thing. It destroys people's free will and their right to decide for themselves if synthesis is something they would like. This is made even worse by the fact that it prevents nor provides anything in the context of the story.

       Look at it like this, what if today, the world governments forced every human being to get surgery to install a metal skull to prevent head injuries that may or may not happen. It's wrong and it more than likely won't even prevent said injuries. It's the same as synthesis, unquestionably wrong and completely unacceptable.

       As for acceptable ending options, if the three in game were the only possible options, synthesis would = renegade, control would = nuetral and destroy (Reapers only) would = paragon. However, the way it should have been, control = nuetral, synthesis = renegade and paragon would be telling the Reapers to go screw and defeat them conventionally. EMS would then play it's part in deciding how successful each choice is.

    That is all I feel the need, or desire, to discuss. And this post is long enough as it is.;)


Nice jobImage IPB

#617
Encarmine

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read your post OP.

Thanks for wasting my time, all it is, is a journalist clutching at straws telling me i need to be reading a Science Report to appreciate the reapers viewpoint.

He then goes on to spend the rest of the article try[ing to convince himself the games ending wasnt useless.

Then I got to read all those quotes about upset devs, who think making a game for fans and writing the ending for them, removes al point of being artistic?

WHEN DID THE VIDEOGAMES INDUSTRY SUDDENLY GET OVER RUN BY SENSITIVE ARTISTS WHO CRY IF THEY CANNOT RELISE THEIR VISION TO SCREN?

IM SORRY I THOUGHT YOU WERE ALL MONEY GRABBING CORPORATE SUITS WHO WERE MORE CONCERNED WITH HOW MUCH DLC U CAN SQUEEZE INTO A 12 MONTH CYCLE

so sorry i totally misjusdged a you Dev guys.

#618
Brettic

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"In the paragon ending sequence (controlling the reapers), the mass relays are destroyed."

Yeah this article is ignorant, and I'm not reading beyond that point because it's stupid as well.

#619
Guest_AwesomeName_*

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Rafe34 wrote...

In fact, the only reason I felt the ending was decent and not great is because there were no surprises the way there were in a game like Portal.


Guy's a moron. No surprises. Really.

And his entire argument is undermined by the fact that this was NOT the original ending for the trilogy. Karpshyn's dark energy ending was the original ending. It is a fact that this ending was changed from the original one.

Not to mention, the entirety of these types of "theories" put forward by Hawking and his ilk during the last twenty years are based on no evidence at all. 

It is pure speculation- wait a minute. :blink:


I got it now! Steven Hawking wrote the ending!


I think the point REI makes is that what we get in the games is based on fairly well known speculative ideas, rather than coming out of nowhere.  In other words, the writers expected the audience to know about concepts such as the technilogical singularity, etc.  Personally I don't think that's unreasonable.

Anyway... I liked what I've read from the article so far - will have to read it all later.  I suspect most will shy away from it though since most people tend to reject anything that takes too much effort to understand.  From what I've read it's not really that technical though - you definitely don't need to be an astrobiologist to understand any of it, anymore than you would need to be able to enjoy a David Attenborough documentary.

#620
DJBare

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When you cannot make sense of something, use a sledge hammer to force a square peg into a round hole.

#621
Zulmoka531

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Encarmine wrote...

read your post OP.

Thanks for wasting my time, all it is, is a journalist clutching at straws telling me i need to be reading a Science Report to appreciate the reapers viewpoint.

He then goes on to spend the rest of the article try[ing to convince himself the games ending wasnt useless.

Then I got to read all those quotes about upset devs, who think making a game for fans and writing the ending for them, removes al point of being artistic?

WHEN DID THE VIDEOGAMES INDUSTRY SUDDENLY GET OVER RUN BY SENSITIVE ARTISTS WHO CRY IF THEY CANNOT RELISE THEIR VISION TO SCREN?

IM SORRY I THOUGHT YOU WERE ALL MONEY GRABBING CORPORATE SUITS WHO WERE MORE CONCERNED WITH HOW MUCH DLC U CAN SQUEEZE INTO A 12 MONTH CYCLE

so sorry i totally misjusdged a you Dev guys.

They are corporate(s). And by hiding behind "artistic integrity" they can rally media behind them. I'm going to tell you right now, had this been a low brow company, and not EAware, the media and this "artisitc integrity" stuff would not have been nearly as overblown as it has become. It's simply PR and "the bottom line" type stuff.

#622
Blind2Society

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

*snip*


Nice jobImage IPB


Thank you:)

#623
Wolven_Soul

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Why throw positive light on something which IS objectively badly written and poorly concieved?  It should be ridiculed as such, and then either improved or abandoned.


THIS^


Because I think there's a lot to like about the ending and want to try to be positive about it.  They aren't going to change it no matter how many rage threads are started.  So you can either be angry about it or try and like it.


I am no longer angry about it.  But I see no reason to try and like something that I find to just be absolutely terrible.  I am just not the settling type.

#624
WeAreLegionWTF

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japinthebox wrote...

WeAreLegionWTF wrote...

that article was nothing more than a logic smoke screen. why waste all that time typing to when you still dont counter this meme?

Image IPB


Why dont the reapers just kill synthetics when they go bad? why galactic genocide, when the synthetics themselves were the first to join the reapers in me1?…


I was considering putting that in the article, but I figured it's just too stupid to respond to because the answer is right in the pudding.

The Reapers aren't all-powerful or omnipresent. They have no means to, for instance, destroy all information on how to create synthetics or to figure out how to destroy rogue synthetics. The Crucible offers a way to do this, but it took millions of years to build.


FIXED: Why dont the reapers just kill synthetics when they go bad? OR TOO STRONG?why galactic
genocide, when the synthetics themselves were the first to join the
reapers in me1?… WHY not just hang around and have an acting hand in the shaping of young races, to avert the advent of said synthetics?

Simpley put. Its bad storytelling

I guess this is how the ending should have been written...

Catalyst:
"We first express power P in terms of E, r and the variable R by
substituting i = E / (r + R) into P = R i 2. P® = R i 2 = R E 2 / (r
+ R) 2
We now differentiate P with respect to the variable R
dP / dR = E 2 [ (r + R) 2 - R 2 (r + R) ] / [(r + R) 4 ]
= E 2 [ (r + R) - 2 R ] / [(r + R) 3 ]
= E 2 [ (r - R) ] / [(r + R) 3 ]
To find out whether P has a local maximum we need to find the critical points by setting
dP / dR = 0 and solve for R. "

Shepard: Ill take red.

#625
nomex

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sp0ck 06 wrote...

Spectre-00N7 wrote...

Can't tell if the op thinks we don't understand what the ending was trying to be about or just wants to give us something to read.


Just something to read.

But it seems most people are so firmly entrenched in their hated of the ending that it was a pointless endeavor.  Oh well.  :blink:

I read it.  I still dislike the ending.  It didn't change my thoughts on the ending.  Remember this just like the IT is just a theory.  Even its real life part that is listed to explain the ending is a theory.  Even though the author doesn't claim it to be a theory in the article, it is.  That said I will include something I posted elsewhere that the author did not address in this article.

If the catalyst is a type 2 civilization, why would it not give better guidance to shepard so a "right" choice could be made.  The catalyst said it cant and wont act, but gives shepard the oppertunity.  Why not further explain at least synthesis choice since the catalyst feels it is the best possible option. 

Part two is that this theory is essoteric and aleinates the audience.  If this was the intention, it was not proper to have such an ending without a long explination or stronger foreshadowing to better enlighten the reader.