149 réponses à ce sujet

[streamlock]

A common theme I see reoccuring is the what if "happy/unhappy/bitter" argument on ME3's ending.  

From an overarching standpoint, I don't see the rational on this argument.

Lets say, for the sake of argument that the crucible was non-funtional and the allied fleets/sheppard defeats the reapers, somehow, someway.

Earth is trashed.  Every major city and industrial center is wrecked.  God knows how much of the population is dead, dying, or being rendered into reaper mush.  Her colonies are trashed.  Her fleets are shadow of thier former glory.  The amount of eezo released in the final battle would afflict the children of the survivors with horrific birth defects (some minor fraction would be biotic)

Thesia is wrecked.
Palavian is wrecked
Who knows about the Selarian homeworld.
The entire galactic infrastructure crushed.

Just about the entire galaxy is a post apocolyptic wasteland.  Billions, maybe trillions dead.

No matter what happened at the end, this is an undeniable reprecussion of the reaper invasion.  It's a war story.  War sucks.  Even in the most rainbow and unicorn filled ending fans have come up with would not change this.

In short, lay off the happy ending BS.  Wanting a couragous, heroic closure for the protoganist and thier team/LI, (living or dead) over the pseudo imagary interpretationalist Greek tradegedy crap that was delivered is not asking for a 'happy' ending. 

The happy ending debate is a non-issue.  Unless war torn wastelands is your idea of happy times.  In which case, stay the hell away from politics, and us.

[EricHVela]

There's no happy ending to all-out-war with a superior force ... just less unhappy ones.

also

It was rushed.

[nhcre8tv1]

Showing the fact the everyone died would probably outweigh the happy in my eyes if they're was one. But then again, I don't really care for a happy ending, just one that fits.

[Dendio1]

The other games in the trilogy led us to believe that with the right decisions we could get a happy ending. ME2 had a perfect ending if you figured out how to pull it off. ME1 also had a good ending with no real losses aside from virmire.

Modifié par Dendio1, 19 avril 2012 - 04:15 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

[Dendio1]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

Wow...You actually get it...

It got to the point where I would contemplate sacrificing the galaxy to keep my squad and characters I cared about alive and well. Sort of a Noah's ark choice. How about that being a fourth option

[TODD9999]

I won't pretend to speak for other people, because I know different people will have different views. For myself, yes, all of that is incredibly obvious. This is why I say that one of the options for the ending should have been that Shepard personally survives, as well as his squad. This gives the game a spot of personal-level happiness, which could have easily been contrasted via dialogue and presentation with the ruined state of the galaxy.

So for me, the happy ending is not so much happy, as in Shepard and Garrus kicking back with some brewskis, watching Miranda, Liara, Ashley, and Jack playing jiggly beach volleyball while a dead Reaper is in the background, but happy as in satisfaction at a galaxy defended, and having the willingness and energy to move forward together to rebuild it as a new, more cohesive community, to bury and remember the dead.

Along with other endings, of course, widely variable and covering a wide swathe of emotional territory.

EDIT: OP, I must say, I'm a big uncertain of what argument you're presenting.  I've responded as though your argument is that people asking for a happy ending are being silly, but it's possible that you're arguing the opposite (that a happy ending is impossible, so people arguing against a bit of happiness for Shepard and crew are being unnecessarily harsh).  Just FYI.

Modifié par TODD9999, 19 avril 2012 - 04:23 .

[The Anti-Saint]

The end of war constitutes a happy ending, now the aftermath is an entirely different thing...not much aftermath to the ending as it is.

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 19 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[The Almighty Ali]

A happy ending for me is when the actions of the hero to defeat the bad guys, doesn't cause more harm then what the bad guys would do.

For instance, A army invades a country, the invaded country retaliates by erradicating all life in both it's own country, the enemy country and all of it's neighbooring countries through nuclear bombs.

Or a man has a woman hostage in an apartment building, the army calls down an airstrike on the entire city block and annihilates it.


Yes life sucks and war is horrible, still doesn't mean we don't want to have the illusion that things can still turn good in the end.

[Cazychel]

*sigh*

Every one is aware of the situation the Reapers already created. It is not good, catastrophic in some instances. BUT what most of those, who want a "happy ending", state is, that there should be, if everything went as good as it can get, a happy end for Shepard him/herself.

And the current state of the galaxy can be vastly different (perhaps it should be able to be more different, but I digress), but yes, even a happy ending would have massive destruction, have a bittersweet tone and so forth.

[PsyrenY]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

Agreed.

Also monkeysphere: www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

[Dendio1]

The Anti-Saint wrote...

The end of war is a happy ending, now the aftermath is an entirely different thing.

If the war's outcome is the only thing you care about then Mass effect 2 had no bad ending. Mass effect 2's ending was all about keeping your squad alive. Then Mass effect 3's ending showed everything but the squad and didnt give any definitive insight on their status.

[Menalaos1971]

I'm sorry but the only people really harping on "happy endings" I thought were the people trying to actively discredit the Retakers and the little kids that someone conned Mom into buying this M Rated game for them...

[Wulfram]

The galaxy is in ruins, but it can still be a fairly happy ending if you put your focus on hope, resilience and overcoming adversity. The people of the galaxy have come together to face it's greatest threat and they have survived. There have been tremendous sacrifices, but they have not been in vain.

I mean, World War 2 was a truly horrible thing, but you can still write a more or less happy ending to a WW2 film.

The thing which makes ME3's ending too bitter for my taste is that the ending feels like it compromises Shepard's status as a hero. Either they commit genocide or they do something that feels far too uncomfortably like completing the plan of the villain.

[Federally]

Happy is the wrong word. I want a 'hopeful' ending that concentrates on the characters I've become attached too. BioWare's big mistake with the ending was taking a character driven story and largely ignoring them in the ending. A majority of the end cutscenes show faceless grunts on a battlefield with just a short glimpse of the people we actually give a **** about. If they want me to feel sad, happy, hopeful or whatever they need to show me that through the characters they've created.

Wanna make me sad? Show Liara on a war torn Thessia in the aftermath, portray the emotion through her. Or Joker mourning over EDI's body because I chose destroy.

Wanna give me hope? Show Wrex/Wreav and Eve with some Krogan youngsters on Tuchanka. Or Quarians and Geth on Rannoch working together to rebuild.

The ending as it stands wasn't even a sad one as I'm not attached to anything they showed me and the one glimpse we got of those we care about was just confusing.

[Dendio1]

Wulfram wrote...

The galaxy is in ruins, but it can still be a fairly happy ending if you put your focus on hope, resilience and overcoming adversity. The people of the galaxy have come together to face it's greatest threat and they have survived. There have been tremendous sacrifices, but they have not been in vain.

I mean, World War 2 was a truly horrible thing, but you can still write a more or less happy ending to a WW2 film.

The thing which makes ME3's ending too bitter for my taste is that the ending feels like it compromises Shepard's status as a hero. Either they commit genocide or they do something that feels far too uncomfortably like completing the plan of the villain.

We spend three games trying to destroy the reapers on our terms. We reject Saren's solution, We reject TIM's solution, We embrace Andersons solution, throughout 3 games...

Then in the last 5 mins, we encounter a being that shatters shepards resolve. Suddenly we can choose a solution from the past three games. This is jarring to say the least. Its confusing because the catalyst does not repeat himself and speaks fast during this huge change of perspective. Many a player just made a choice not fully knowing what they were doing. Then the ending happens, shows a brief sequence of incredible events and leaves us wondering what happened with the normandy, shepard and the mass effect universe at large.

Then we hear a child use the cringe worthy title *The Shepard*
and we are told rather than shown that shepard is a legend.
Then DLC prompt is the cherry topping the icing

Modifié par Dendio1, 19 avril 2012 - 04:38 .

[MattFini]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

This.  

If my Shep is alive (and I don't see any reason s/he NEEDS to be dead in every scenario), I would like to see them reunited with their LI, know what happened to them after the war, to their friends ... etc.

If Shep dies, I still want to know what happened to the rest of the crew from ME1 and 2.

I want to know what happens to the galaxy.

Thing is, I went into ME3 EXPECTING personal collateral damange.  Going into Priority: Earth I was bracing myself to see Garrus get taken out in some heroic way.  To see some of the ME2 squaddies go down while trying to help Shepard reach their goal.  I was fully prepared for this, and I would've been okay with some unavoidable deaths.

When that didn't happen I was surprised.  Then my surprsed turned to annoyance and anger when what I got instead was some vague cutscene that left wayyyyyy more questions than answers.

When I finshed ME2 for the first time, I had chills.  I couldn't believe HOW epic, HOW satisfying that experience was.  Sure, some people didn't like the human reaper but I loved fighting that damn thing.  I couldn't wait to play it again.

After ME3, I sat in stunned silence.  Utterly bafffled.  Thinking:  "this is how BioWare wanted to finish Mass Effect?"

Had my Shepard died, but I still got to see the end result of my choices for my friends and the galaxy I would've been fine with it.

When I played DA:O, I willingly sacrificed by Warden at the end and I was fine with it because it was MY choice to make.  I wanted to do it for all my friends, and as redemption.  It also meant I would want to play it again immediately and survive.

No such luck with MASS EFFECT 3.  Just vague writing, sloppy flashbacks (seriously, dying Shep doesn't think of his LI with his dying thought?  There goes immersion) and incoherent cutscenes that, at best leave you baffled while at worst make you angry. 

In short, it was the most thankless thing I've ever seen in gaming. 

Modifié par MattFini, 19 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[CroGamer002]

streamlock wrote...

Thesia is wrecked.
Palavian is wrecked
Who knows about the Selarian homeworld.

Thessia
Palaven
Salarian - Sur'Kesh

<_<

[Kunari801]

streamlock wrote...

A common theme I see reoccuring is the what if "happy/unhappy/bitter" argument on ME3's ending....   

Like Mordin's sacrifice speech, the galaxy is too large to make it personal.  Many consider a "happy" ending to be one where Shepard can live and return to their LI while still saving the Geth & EDI.  

[Naugi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

This.

Look at it another way. If you were a survivor of WW2 I'm willing to bet you didnt give a rats ass about the state of France or Poland following the war, your happy ending was surviving and getting back home to your family. This is human nature.

[Dendio1]

Mesina2 wrote...

streamlock wrote...

Thesia is wrecked.
Palavian is wrecked
Who knows about the Selarian homeworld.

Thessia
Palaven
Salarian - Sur'Kesh

<_<

Rannoch get your plot of land now! Its a buyers market!

[a.m.p]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

I think there is a difference between the "what do I care about the pre-space grandpa 10000 years later" position (which I tend to share) and the connection to the galaxy right now.

Take the mission on Palaven where we meet Garrus. We have never before been there but people still have a strong reaction to seeing it burn. Because it's Garrus' world and because that mission was done very well.
Same goes for Thessia. And Tuchanka. And everywhere else. The connection of the players to the ME universe should not be underestimated, it's actually one of the main reasons people love it so much.
The statistics don't have to be faceless, because each of those planets already has a face.

If delivered carefully, if the loss was shown through the characters we know, any 100% 'happy' ending with everyone surviving, no relays destroyed and the reapers stopped, could have become truly bittersweet and meaningful. So I'm with the OP here. You simply don't get disney endings after a war like this. And adding drama and symbolism just for the sake of drama and symbolism wasn't the best idea to say the least.

[Vox Draco]

Wulfram wrote...

The galaxy is in ruins, but it can still be a fairly happy ending if you put your focus on hope, resilience and overcoming adversity. The people of the galaxy have come together to face it's greatest threat and they have survived. There have been tremendous sacrifices, but they have not been in vain.

I mean, World War 2 was a truly horrible thing, but you can still write a more or less happy ending to a WW2 film.

The thing which makes ME3's ending too bitter for my taste is that the ending feels like it compromises Shepard's status as a hero. Either they commit genocide or they do something that feels far too uncomfortably like completing the plan of the villain.

Pretty much this. almost everybody wanting a "happy" ending is fuly aware how the galaxy looks like...billions of dead, huge seas of tears, blood and sorrow. We are aware of this from the very beginning of the game when leaving Earth, see Palaven burn, watch Thessia getting destroyed, andfinally returning to Earth, which is already not much more than a huge pile of blood-stained rubble...

And to add to all of this, we are forced to meet the one who claims himself responsible for all these atrocities, and listen to his horrific reasons for this biggest crime since the big-bang, and all our hero Shepard does is...nothing. All she says is...nothing...and all we, the players, can do is...nothing. Nothing but do what the kid forces upon us, and this current ending gives us nothing but more grief, sorrow and a feeling of hopelesness...

A "happy" ending, with Shep alive, meeting her squad and an eoilogue showing the first steps on the long road towards rebuilding the galaxy, that would have given the mahority (I am boldly claiming this!) enough closure and satisfaction that they would paly the game now, instead of posting their feelings here on the boards..

And in my eyes there is NOTHING wrong with desiring a happy ending, I am not ashamed of wanting one! In fact I have reached a point where I say: Throw all the rainbows, unicorns and candy at me in the end you have, what I had witnessed and felt  a month ago was already bitter enough...

[The Anti-Saint]

Dendio1 wrote...
If the war's outcome is the only thing you care about then Mass effect 2 had no bad ending. Mass effect 2's ending was all about keeping your squad alive.

Well, one should care about the wars outcome in ME3...the game was set up to conclude it.

Dendio1 wrote...
Then Mass effect 3's ending showed everything but the squad and didnt give any definitive insight on their status.

This is my problem with the game, an insufficient aftermath sequence. There is so much fertile ground for stories when one is picking up the pieces of ones life, truly allowing the loss to sink in. We just got a few slides from a powerpoint presentation that told us next to nothing about our mates; faces...light show...normandy crash...uh...random people coming out of normandy wreck on random planet...some old guy with a kid...the end.

Modifié par The Anti-Saint, 19 avril 2012 - 04:47 .

[Grimwick]

streamlock wrote...

No matter what happened at the end, this is an undeniable reprecussion of the reaper invasion.  It's a war story.  War sucks.  Even in the most rainbow and unicorn filled ending fans have come up with would not change this.

In short, lay off the happy ending BS.  Wanting a couragous, heroic closure for the protoganist and thier team/LI, (living or dead) over the pseudo imagary interpretationalist Greek tradegedy crap that was delivered is not asking for a 'happy' ending. 

The happy ending debate is a non-issue.  Unless war torn wastelands is your idea of happy times.  In which case, stay the hell away from politics, and us.

It's pretty hard to argue against someone who is so clearly using a straw man...

Firstly, you are right when you say war sucks. It does. In WW2 many many millions of people were killed... but this did not stop them from celebrating the end of the war. Ever heard of VE day? There was literally partying in the streets - people came out and used up all of their rations to bake cakes, make party food and the whole deal to celebrate. So saying that nothing happy, nothing at all, can be taken from this is stupid. 

Secondly, and a point which makes the first one moot, is the idea of what you are defining as 'our demands for a happy ending'. Very few people are saying that the entire galaxy will be 100% totally happy after the ending, in fact nobody is. Instead our idea of 'happy' is the idea of survival and preferably reunion - of your friends/LI/Shepard. Shepard's death is unnecessary as a forced sacrifice. It is an overused cliche that has been forced down our throats regardless of what choice we actually pick... if it were to be meaningful or cathartic like your Greek Tragedies then there has to be some element of decision - a choice to make the sacrifice OR NOT. The sacrfice needs to be compensated by a range of outcomes - from 'perfect' survival to outright failure. Otherwise it's just stupid uneeded bleakness piled upon the bleakness of the price of war that is already there.

Overall, if you have some sort of heart-aching desire for your Shepard to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' then you should be able to. But people like me who don't tend towards emo-nihilist ideals want to be able to impact OUR story and have an ending which makes clear the future of you, your LI and your friends which preferably makes us smile with content at the same time.