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[Dan Dark]

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

Allan Schumacher is my favorite BioWare staff member as of now.

Seconded! Can't tell you how impressed I am to see someone from BioWare in here, actually talking with us; not just saying "Oh, we're listening," but actually talking with us. That said, though I only skimmed the thread, it doesn't look like there's too much I can contribute that hasn't been said already... even so, though, it couldn't hurt to reiterate.

I disagree with the OP's post... or perhaps I'm just not understanding it? Originally I thought they were saying "Hey, everyone! Shut up already, you're not getting a happy ending!" but glancing at it again, maybe the point was that, no matter what happens, there will still be some of a bittersweet feel to it - even if the ending is completely "happy" on the personal level, (for Shepard, his or her LI, and the squad), it would still be offset by all of the suffering and losses the rest of the galaxy suffered. And, well... even if that's not the point the OP was trying to make, that's where I stand - I would be quite alright with there being all kinds of damage done from the war (it IS war, after all), so long as there's a chance for the people I truly care about to make it through alright. Granted, yeah, I would also kind of like it to make sense, too... but honestly, I can live with a plothole or two, if it happens to work out in favor of the player and the story.

[Allan Schumacher]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I feel like Bioware should have made a tag line:

"Want a happy ending with Shepard and your LI? Commit Genocide."

I know you're just poking some fun, but I think that the idea of Shepard making a decision that is less awesome for the entire galaxy in order to save himself and/or the people he cares about, is exceptionally powerful and interesting, so I don't think that the idea that you jokingly present is a bad idea in the slightest.

I would enjoy an ending that put me in a decision where, to do the most good for the galaxy, it would take some level of sacrifice from myself and/or my favourite party members (no sending Vega to be the hero because you don't like him type of stuff), whereas saving Shepard and/or the people Shepard cares most about would come at a cost for the rest of the galaxy.  Still winning, but less overtly winning.

It's a meaningful choice because no choice is clearly superior to the other, with meaningful consequences that will hit home with the player.  When I talk about games wanting "Choice and Consequences" this is the type of stuff that I really enjoy.  It doesn't come across too often though, unfortunately.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I feel like Bioware should have made a tag line:

"Want a happy ending with Shepard and your LI? Commit Genocide."

I know you're just poking some fun, but I think that the idea of Shepard making a decision that is less awesome for the entire galaxy in order to save himself and/or the people he cares about, is exceptionally powerful and interesting, so I don't think that the idea that you jokingly present is a bad idea in the slightest.

I would enjoy an ending that put me in a decision where, to do the most good for the galaxy, it would take some level of sacrifice from myself and/or my favourite party members (no sending Vega to be the hero because you don't like him type of stuff), whereas saving Shepard and/or the people Shepard cares most about would come at a cost for the rest of the galaxy.  Still winning, but less overtly winning.

It's a meaningful choice because no choice is clearly superior to the other, with meaningful consequences that will hit home with the player.  When I talk about games wanting "Choice and Consequences" this is the type of stuff that I really enjoy.  It doesn't come across too often though, unfortunately.

Already did that, to some extent

Saved the krogan, Mordin sacrificed himself
Saved the salarian Councilor, Thane died.
Made peace with the geth, Legion sacrfificed himself

Now granted Shepard did not directly cause these events to happen, but he/.she did participate in them and witnessed friends dying to bring the galaxy together.

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers,  goes a bit beyond  "some level of sacrifice" 

[Allan Schumacher]

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers, goes a bit beyond "some level of sacrifice"

My comments were actually more generally speaking, as opposed to whether or not the ME3 ending actually did or did not provide it. Although since you mention it, at what level of sacrifice is it sufficient (and more importantly, equivalent)? What would you suggest?

[streamlock]

Yikes!

I kinda wrote the original post on a lunch break that cut short and just now had the chance to get back to it. It was not the most well thought out text I've ever had to be sure (but when it is ever).

I guess part of it is a personal quark of mine. I tend to see the forest for the actual trees sort of speak. So at least for my individual experience, I didn't see the codex entry about how many people dying on earth of what have you as a just a raw number. But actual mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, etc. (Yeah yeah, I know-it's just a game). Just how my brain works-I understand it's somewhat.......odd for human behavior.

And I also agree that the 'happy' term is a misnomer of sorts. I had kept seeing the 'happy' argument come up, and with my above stated strange view of things I went on a bit of a rant. It was actually directed at both the groups clammering for, and against the "happy" ending.

But I digress. I would concede that when people talk of a happy ending, what they are meaning 'happy' as seeing a sense of hope for the future. Particularly for your squad-mates and other NPC's that you have interacted with over the course of the series. And more over a sense of heroism, closure, what have you. I'll have to read the rest of the responses.

Oh, and thanks for the spelling corrections. Damn proper nouns.

[Dr. Megaverse]

streamlock wrote...

A common theme I see reoccuring is the what if "happy/unhappy/bitter" argument on ME3's ending.  

From an overarching standpoint, I don't see the rational on this argument.

Lets say, for the sake of argument that the crucible was non-funtional and the allied fleets/sheppard defeats the reapers, somehow, someway.

Earth is trashed.  Every major city and industrial center is wrecked.  God knows how much of the population is dead, dying, or being rendered into reaper mush.  Her colonies are trashed.  Her fleets are shadow of thier former glory.  The amount of eezo released in the final battle would afflict the children of the survivors with horrific birth defects (some minor fraction would be biotic)

Thesia is wrecked.
Palavian is wrecked
Who knows about the Selarian homeworld.
The entire galactic infrastructure crushed.

Just about the entire galaxy is a post apocolyptic wasteland.  Billions, maybe trillions dead.

No matter what happened at the end, this is an undeniable reprecussion of the reaper invasion.  It's a war story.  War sucks.  Even in the most rainbow and unicorn filled ending fans have come up with would not change this.

In short, lay off the happy ending BS.  Wanting a couragous, heroic closure for the protoganist and thier team/LI, (living or dead) over the pseudo imagary interpretationalist Greek tradegedy crap that was delivered is not asking for a 'happy' ending. 

The happy ending debate is a non-issue.  Unless war torn wastelands is your idea of happy times.  In which case, stay the hell away from politics, and us.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[stevefox1200]

I agree

I never got why people said that unless Shepard dies there would be no "Sacrifice"

I think the mass devastation of all major planets is sacrifice enough

[Deemz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers, goes a bit beyond "some level of sacrifice"

My comments were actually more generally speaking, as opposed to whether or not the ME3 ending actually did or did not provide it. Although since you mention it, at what level of sacrifice is it sufficient (and more importantly, equivalent)? What would you suggest?

Top two in estimated fan popularity. Maybe even adjusted or broshep or femshep.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers, goes a bit beyond "some level of sacrifice"

My comments were actually more generally speaking, as opposed to whether or not the ME3 ending actually did or did not provide it. Although since you mention it, at what level of sacrifice is it sufficient (and more importantly, equivalent)? What would you suggest?

I find it hard to say sepcifically.  But this might give a little insight.

In DAO, I do not really find "The Dark Ritual" to be my "best" ending.  I actually think "Redeemer" is.  That's the one where you let Loghain atone for his actions by slayiing the archdemon and sacrificing himself.

When sacrifice is demanded in stories I read (or play) I prefer them to be made by characters who know full well wht is being asked of them and choose to do so anyway.  That's what makes Mordin's death so powerful.  He knew what was going to happen to him if he went up that elevator.  Or Legion, knowing he would be destroyed uploading that code, but did so anyway.  Or even Thane, terminally ill, certainly in no shape to fight, but doing so anyway, knowing his death was a virtual certainty.

So to save Shepard, I would say the sacrifice should ideally be someone else willing to trade places with Shepard.  Or at least be willing to take the death.  Anderson or The Illusive Man would have made fine choices (imo, there are few stories better than that of a redeemed villain, and few stories as tragic as a fallen hero) but they both have the distinct disadvantage of being dead.  Other friends may also be suitable:  Liara, Joker, James, or other current or former squadmates.  Possibly others.  

That's what makes killing the geth such a monstrous act.  While it is theoretically possible that they might reach a consensus to be wiped out if it meant the destruction of the Old Machines.  But they were not given that choice.  It just happened to them out of the blue.  For a game that's all about self determination, the ending is the ultimate removal of choice.

[Iakus]

stevefox1200 wrote...

I agree

I never got why people said that unless Shepard dies there would be no "Sacrifice"

I think the mass devastation of all major planets is sacrifice enough

One phrase I saw in one of the many ME3 reviews I've seen says it all.

It's something like 
"the phrase 'the hero has to' anything goes against everything Mass Effect is about"

[Rabid Rooster]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers, goes a bit beyond "some level of sacrifice"

My comments were actually more generally speaking, as opposed to whether or not the ME3 ending actually did or did not provide it. Although since you mention it, at what level of sacrifice is it sufficient (and more importantly, equivalent)? What would you suggest?

The sacrifice has already been made... Who dies on Virmir in ME 1, 1000s of colonist in ME 2 and if you lost any Squadmates, hell even Shepard can die in ME 2, Millions of people from all the races, Mordin, Legion and others in ME 3.

[Rabid Rooster]

iakus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers, goes a bit beyond "some level of sacrifice"

My comments were actually more generally speaking, as opposed to whether or not the ME3 ending actually did or did not provide it. Although since you mention it, at what level of sacrifice is it sufficient (and more importantly, equivalent)? What would you suggest?

I find it hard to say sepcifically.  But this might give a little insight.

In DAO, I do not really find "The Dark Ritual" to be my "best" ending.  I actually think "Redeemer" is.  That's the one where you let Loghain atone for his actions by slayiing the archdemon and sacrificing himself.

When sacrifice is demanded in stories I read (or play) I prefer them to be made by characters who know full well wht is being asked of them and choose to do so anyway.  That's what makes Mordin's death so powerful.  He knew what was going to happen to him if he went up that elevator.  Or Legion, knowing he would be destroyed uploading that code, but did so anyway.  Or even Thane, terminally ill, certainly in no shape to fight, but doing so anyway, knowing his death was a virtual certainty.

So to save Shepard, I would say the sacrifice should ideally be someone else willing to trade places with Shepard.  Or at least be willing to take the death.  Anderson or The Illusive Man would have made fine choices (imo, there are few stories better than that of a redeemed villain, and few stories as tragic as a fallen hero) but they both have the distinct disadvantage of being dead.  Other friends may also be suitable:  Liara, Joker, James, or other current or former squadmates.  Possibly others.  

That's what makes killing the geth such a monstrous act.  While it is theoretically possible that they might reach a consensus to be wiped out if it meant the destruction of the Old Machines.  But they were not given that choice.  It just happened to them out of the blue.  For a game that's all about self determination, the ending is the ultimate removal of choice.

Brovo.  I would have loved if the Illusive Man had done that.

[Kajan451]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I feel like Bioware should have made a tag line:

"Want a happy ending with Shepard and your LI? Commit Genocide."

I know you're just poking some fun, but I think that the idea of Shepard making a decision that is less awesome for the entire galaxy in order to save himself and/or the people he cares about, is exceptionally powerful and interesting, so I don't think that the idea that you jokingly present is a bad idea in the slightest.

Except, there wasn't that option. I had gladly taken it, but see the thing is... there was Legion. I care about Legion. Actually enough to have a Geth Avatar. And i did my very best to reunite the Geth and the Quarians. The whole story behind the geth was they didn't want to die. Someone i considered a Friend gave their life to save their people.

And that really was the only reason i didn't pick the destroy option, because someone my Shepard cared about gave their own life, and i think there isn't a higher price someone can pay, to save the geth.

Between us.. i really had liked the option 4.. of Luke standing next to the emporer and saying: Well if thats my 3 choices, i am willing to let it all play out. Maybe we beat you, maybe we don't, but i am not becoming the Ilusive man, i am not becoming Saren and i am not throwing my friends sacrifices away by doing what his whole race fought for much longer than i could care for.

Destroying the Geth would have been an option if they never had gotten Legion and if Edi had remained in the Background as some Faceless AI, but by making them a person, giving them desires of their own, walking a mile in their shoes how they struggled to be acceped and find their place in the universe. That really didn't leave much of a choice for a "selfish" ending.

In the end i picked Synthesis because of all 3 i could at least trick myself into thinking that even if i merge their organic parts with synthetic ones they still remain who they are. Maybe making things a bit better for people like Joker and Thane. (Well not for Thane actually)


I am not sure exactly in which of the posted categories i would fit, because mostly for me.. it was the lack of impact my choices had and being kinda run over by the catalyst. I guess that puts me into the catalyst section. But I could have forgiven the catalyst if you had have had something like the Suicide Mission before that, where all choices i made had an impact. I mean a real impact and not just some number that goes into some numberpool with the equvialent of a codex entry. I wouldn't have mind the Catalyst as much if things actually mattered. If i could have persuaded the Catalyst.. reasoned with him based on what i did. Tried to make him understand my side of the bargain chip.

Then i kind of wouldn't have cared as much about the logic of the Catalyst or how much, in the end it reminded me of Matrix when Neo met the Architect and basically gets told that it always would have been that way. Which back then just as it does now, begs the question: Why? At least the Matrix presented an answer about the Human mind rejecting the illusion and thus needing a Neo/Shepard. ME doesn't present an answer to why the catalyst believes its a good idea to send synthetics to kill organics so they won't be killed by their own created synthetics. I mean if the whole point is to protect organic live from being killed by synthetics...there is no logic reason. He might as well just taken the DNA of one of each kind, made an Arch or something like that. Stored the information in there and preserved organic life that way.


Overall, i don't think i am fitting into a category, because its kind of the whole ending. Each side on its own wouldn't have bothered me as much, but since there was all of it.. Choices didn't seem to matter, the final choices being totally removed from my actions and boiling down to "which color would you like", suddenly seeing everyone on the normandy and escaping the explosion.. crashlanding on a jungle planet with 2 moons.. (I mean i am interested in SciFi with that comes a certain knowledge about our solar system.. and i know there is not Jungle Planet with 2 moons in over 600 light years)... but what really tiped the whole thing. That was that grandfather and the kid. Followed by that pop up box.

But... iirc you had that one on ME2 right? I am fairly certain you did and it didn't bother me.. so i guess it boils down to "the whole thing", i am afraid. One thing aiding the other in diminishing the whole experiance.

And i still can't really go back and play the singleplayer again. I really would love, but whenever i try.. and i made it past mars right now... it just doesn't work. It seems to pointless knowing what i will see at the end. The whole Tuchanka thing, Mordin and such.. it was a great story. I am really sad it didn't get the ending it deserved. I wanted to remember Mass Effect for something. For something positive and not for feeling ripped off.

[nightcobra]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And you have to admit, genociding an entire race to save yourself, let alone stopping the Reapers, goes a bit beyond "some level of sacrifice"

My comments were actually more generally speaking, as opposed to whether or not the ME3 ending actually did or did not provide it. Although since you mention it, at what level of sacrifice is it sufficient (and more importantly, equivalent)? What would you suggest?

weren't mordin, thane,legion, all those party members that could and those that WILL die during the game, as well as thessia, palaven, the people on earth while shepard was out there, all that, all those sacrifices, weren't they enough?
even if we had a happy ending at the end it doesn't mean we forgot all that we lost along the way.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 21 avril 2012 - 06:19 .

[Allan Schumacher]

iakus wrote...


I find it hard to say sepcifically.  But this might give a little insight.

In DAO, I do not really find "The Dark Ritual" to be my "best" ending.  I actually think "Redeemer" is.  That's the one where you let Loghain atone for his actions by slayiing the archdemon and sacrificing himself.

When sacrifice is demanded in stories I read (or play) I prefer them to be made by characters who know full well wht is being asked of them and choose to do so anyway.  That's what makes Mordin's death so powerful.  He knew what was going to happen to him if he went up that elevator.  Or Legion, knowing he would be destroyed uploading that code, but did so anyway.  Or even Thane, terminally ill, certainly in no shape to fight, but doing so anyway, knowing his death was a virtual certainty.

I agree that those that make the most out of their deaths, ensuring that they don't "die for nothing" are powerful.  But ultimately it's their choice, which actually lessens the choice for Shepard.  It simplifies it for him.  I enjoyed the choices in DAO, and while I find offering Loghain the opportunity, even he acknowledges that it's cliche.  Choosing between the possibilities of yourself, Alistair, or doing the unknown and having Morrigan do the Dark Ritual with you I think is a more interesting choice.  Do you sacrifice yourself?  Do you sacrifice Alistair, even if he may not want to, or do you risk that Morrigan have a child that is the embodiment of an Old God?

So to save Shepard, I would say the sacrifice should ideally be someone else willing to trade places with Shepard.  Or at least be willing to take the death.  Anderson or The Illusive Man would have made fine choices (imo, there are few stories better than that of a redeemed villain, and few stories as tragic as a fallen hero) but they both have the distinct disadvantage of being dead.  Other friends may also be suitable:  Liara, Joker, James, or other current or former squadmates.  Possibly others.

Redeemed villain doesn't have to be a bad outcome, and it could have worked for ME3 so I don't want to make it sound like I'm completely against the idea.  But I find self-sacrifice to be an easier choice,.  If presented with an opportunity to sacrifice yourself or a group of people, the choice of sacrificing yourself is easier because you can come to terms with it.  If the choice is between an unwilling person that you care about, and that same group of people who's intent you're unsure of, suddenly the choice is trickier.  If TIM offers to sacrifice himself, then it becomes almost a no-brainer like Loghain.

Imagine a situation on Earth where Shepard and his LI are pressing the Citadel, and it's a mad dash to do so as Reapers are busting up Sword Fleet like mad.  They have cut off the Geth and are systematically exterminating them at an accelerated rate.  You get to a control panel and start hitting a sequence of control panels powering conduits that begin charging up the Crucible.  The more power conduits you get going, the faster the Crucible will fire, which will spare the Geth from total destruction.  During this your LI is wounded and pulled up lame.  The Crucible is powering up, but there's still another power conduit that needs charging.  The situation is unstable and the only way to save yourself and the LI is to go now.  So the player needs to decide whether their fate, and the possible future they may have with their friends is worth sacrificing in order to ensure the survival of the Geth.  Throw in a third choice, in that Shepard can still charge up the final conduit and save himself, abandoning his LI.

It even fits in with the Paragon/Renegade split, with Paragon being saving the Geth, with Renegade being the more selfish choice.

Now I'm not a writer by any means so I don't think this is written all that well, but I would leave it to someone more skilled to set up the situation for the counterpoint to sacrificing the Geth.  It doesn't need to be SHepard and LI together.  Maybe LI is cutoff and Shepard can choose to go to LI instead to save the LI from being collected or some other horrible fate, or maybe it's some faction of others unwilling to die.

That's what makes killing the geth such a monstrous act.  While it is theoretically possible that they might reach a consensus to be wiped out if it meant the destruction of the Old Machines.  But they were not given that choice.  It just happened to them out of the blue.  For a game that's all about self determination, the ending is the ultimate removal of choice.

That's what I find so interesting though.  By making that choice, Shepard ensures self-determination for every other species in the galaxy.  For a game that is all about self determination, I think it fits quite well... how much are you willing to pay to guarantee the destruction of the Reapers and achieve the specific goal you've set out for.  If the Geth signoff on it saying "Yo dude, we're totally cool with this" then the choice becomes easier.  There's no real cost and hence nothing to make you evaluate whether the cost is worth it.



Anyways it's late and I'm rambling now I think haha.  I'm not saying that the ending can only be good/interesting if the Geth are sacrificed.  I just really like the situation because we have a synthetic race that was fighting for their own autonomy and even had an ally sacrifice itself so they'd achieve individual sentience.  Factor in that they also demonstrated a willingness to side with the Reapers (who were all for the genocide of humans, asari, turians, etc.) in order to save themselves, and it becomes even more interesting and a choice that opens itself to a lot of scrutiny as to whether or not it's worth it.

Cheers.

Allan

[Allan Schumacher]

Except, there wasn't that option. I had gladly taken it, but see the thing is... there was Legion. I care about Legion. Actually enough to have a Geth Avatar. And i did my very best to reunite the Geth and the Quarians. The whole story behind the geth was they didn't want to die. Someone i considered a Friend gave their life to save their people.

I understand that that specifically wasn't an option. It's a bit tricky to follow but my thoughts in this thread include both "general" discussion about what types of choices I find interesting/challenging, as well as thoughts on the destroy choice as it stands in ME3.

Sorry for the obfuscation.

[FlamingBoy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

and this is one of the reason bioware failed, they struggled to make any emotional connection to anyone on earth, thessia, palaven. 1 significant problem is we never actually got to visit these places, missions don't really count as visiting a place, through the lack of inclusion of hub world we were very isolated with our crews and the people who live on the citadel, that said i struggled to make any connection with some citadel individuals from that weird eavesdropp mechanic.

another example i can think of, is how faceless the war assets were, despite all that work we never saw them in the final battle, the battle consisted mostly of humans anyway, dissapointing

also the ending is sooo, well i have no idea what happened, and despite all the speculation, in the end i kind of assumed that everyone died.

hence the entire experience was essentially a disaster

[Erield]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think people consider it a happy ending in the same way that many aren't concerned with what effect stopping the cycle has on the future: the players aren't emotionally connected to the faceless statistics on Earth, Thessia, Palaven, and so forth.

Many posters have stated that they just want to know if Shepard reunites with his/her LI, how the squad is doing and so forth. I don't think it's fair to understate their perspective of what is a happy ending simply because of the other, external consequences of the war.

and this is one of the reason bioware failed, they struggled to make any emotional connection to anyone on earth, thessia, palaven. 1 significant problem is we never actually got to visit these places, missions don't really count as visiting a place, through the lack of inclusion of hub world we were very isolated with our crews and the people who live on the citadel, that said i struggled to make any connection with some citadel individuals from that weird eavesdropp mechanic.

another example i can think of, is how faceless the war assets were, despite all that work we never saw them in the final battle, the battle consisted mostly of humans anyway, dissapointing

also the ending is sooo, well i have no idea what happened, and despite all the speculation, in the end i kind of assumed that everyone died.

hence the entire experience was essentially a disaster

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; ever since I became a Spectre I wasn't fighting to stop the Reapers to save the galaxy.  I was fighting the Reapers and willing to do whatever it took to provide a future for squadmates, for  my friends, for the characters that I loved.  The fact that my friends didn't want to live a life as the only remaining member of their species just made my job that much more difficult.

I realize that this wasn't exactly the story that was being told throughout the games, but it was how I was able to directly relate to the events that were happening.  I was even able to maintain that illusion almost all the way through; there were a few rough spots, but it was truly enjoyable to experience someone else's story my way. 

I was never fighting against the Reapers; I was always fighting for those I cared about.  The endings as presented stripped away my ability to maintain that illusion.  You can't pretend to be fighting for something when Fate literally comes knocking on your door and gives you a limited set of options, no explanation on how they work, and no possibility of finding out more in the way of why or how.  The end-sequences raised even larger questions, such as, "Was it worth it?  Did those people I fought so hard to save live?  Or are they all dead, or soon to be dead because they are now stranded on a planet with no way off and no one who knows where they are, and the limited food supplies that one (crashed) ship can carry?"

[Kajan451]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Imagine a situation on Earth where Shepard and his LI are pressing the Citadel, and it's a mad dash to do so as Reapers are busting up Sword Fleet like mad.  They have cut off the Geth and are systematically exterminating them at an accelerated rate.  You get to a control panel and start hitting a sequence of control panels powering conduits that begin charging up the Crucible.  The more power conduits you get going, the faster the Crucible will fire, which will spare the Geth from total destruction.  During this your LI is wounded and pulled up lame.  The Crucible is powering up, but there's still another power conduit that needs charging.  The situation is unstable and the only way to save yourself and the LI is to go now.  So the player needs to decide whether their fate, and the possible future they may have with their friends is worth sacrificing in order to ensure the survival of the Geth.  Throw in a third choice, in that Shepard can still charge up the final conduit and save himself, abandoning his LI.

It even fits in with the Paragon/Renegade split, with Paragon being saving the Geth, with Renegade being the more selfish choice.

Now I'm not a writer by any means so I don't think this is written all that well, but I would leave it to someone more skilled to set up the situation for the counterpoint to sacrificing the Geth.

Allan, that right there...

that is all i had wanted for the end to ME3. Maybe throw in a couple of the choices, like showing if you saved the Rachnii Queen the Geth get saved by suddenly some cocoon or something bursting open and a couple thousand rachnii storming the front and saving the Geth. Or by having Salarian gunships opening fire and getting you just that bit more time to save your LI.

And mind you, i knew Shepard was gonna die. Ever since they said "there is a part missing" i just knew he is dead meat. So i don't need to have a happy ending, but i think if you take that bit of the story you just posted and add other elements of the story we played, the choices we made. Showing people from Zhus Hope buying you a little more time. Suddenly having Jack and her Students (after you made them reserve troops) burst through the ranks, Jack getting some great moment as they burst through Reapers in an "biotic artillery strike" (for all i care it could get cheesy here with Jack giving a "once more into the breach" type of speech)... and then on the other side, when you normally would need to choose between the Geth and their death you suddenly have the Rachni show up, if you saved them or whatever.

It could still end in Shepards death for all i care.. i was prepared for it and i want Shepards story to be ended, one way or the other.. but what you wrote is basically what we got in ME2 and its basically what i thought we'd get for ME3 but on a much larger scale with every major decision playing a part deciding between peoples lives and deaths.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

That's what makes killing the geth such a monstrous act.  While it is theoretically possible that they might reach a consensus to be wiped out if it meant the destruction of the Old Machines.  But they were not given that choice.  It just happened to them out of the blue.  For a game that's all about self determination, the ending is the ultimate removal of choice.

That's what I find so interesting though.  By making that choice, Shepard ensures self-determination for every other species in the galaxy.  For a game that is all about self determination, I think it fits quite well... how much are you willing to pay to guarantee the destruction of the Reapers and achieve the specific goal you've set out for.  If the Geth signoff on it saying "Yo dude, we're totally cool with this" then the choice becomes easier.  There's no real cost and hence nothing to make you evaluate whether the cost is worth it.

Well.. from what i understand about the endings, and i suppose i am as confused about it as the next guy. Every current ending ensures self-determination for every species, only the destroy ending does that for every species except the geth and well Edi.

With Control you have the Reapers probably or most likely fly off into the next star or get an order to "never return". With Synthesis you only meld the bodies of people and as you learn in the series it doesn't really matter if Organic or Anorganic. Heck we could even reason human bodies nothing but robots build with organic components. So merging synthetic and organic doesn't actually change anything except making the Reaper circle obsolet, thus also ensuring they do no longer pose a threat.

Only Destruction says "We blow them up and a whole civilisation along side it". Of the 3 choices... Destroy is in my book and in my moral guidlines about the same thing as some random Austrian dude deciding to eradicate some religious minority because he believes it might improve the overall situation, except this one is on a much, much larger scale.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Except, there wasn't that option. I had gladly taken it, but see the thing is... there was Legion. I care about Legion. Actually enough to have a Geth Avatar. And i did my very best to reunite the Geth and the Quarians. The whole story behind the geth was they didn't want to die. Someone i considered a Friend gave their life to save their people.

I understand that that specifically wasn't an option. It's a bit tricky to follow but my thoughts in this thread include both "general" discussion about what types of choices I find interesting/challenging, as well as thoughts on the destroy choice as it stands in ME3.

Sorry for the obfuscation.

No worries, sorry for my rant in that case

Modifié par Kajan451, 21 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I agree that those that make the most out of their deaths, ensuring that they don't "die for nothing" are powerful.  But ultimately it's their choice, which actually lessens the choice for Shepard.  It simplifies it for him.  I enjoyed the choices in DAO, and while I find offering Loghain the opportunity, even he acknowledges that it's cliche.  Choosing between the possibilities of yourself, Alistair, or doing the unknown and having Morrigan do the Dark Ritual with you I think is a more interesting choice.  Do you sacrifice yourself?  Do you sacrifice Alistair, even if he may not want to, or do you risk that Morrigan have a child that is the embodiment of an Old God?

It would only simplify the choice if it was clearly the better alternative.  I eman, for an example, say Joker and EDI managed to use the same transporter technology that beamed the squadmates back aboard the Normady to join Shepard on teh Citadel at the moment of decision.  Let's say EDI then volunteers to take control of the Reapers, knowing she'd pull a Legion and be destroyed in the process.  Some people might be willing to sacrifice her, and endure Joker's emotional pleas to stop her.  But others would find that option far more difficult.  Because, well, It's Joker here!  And EDI!

That's what keeps Loghain's sacrifice from being "perfect" or even entirely cliched.  To get that ending, I had to sacrifice my friendship with Alistair and Morrigan (especially sad since she was my LI in that playthrough)   Yes the villain redeemed himself, evil destroyed, the hero lived, but there was still a cost.  If not in lives, then in happiness.

Imagine a situation on Earth where Shepard and his LI are pressing the Citadel, and it's a mad dash to do so as Reapers are busting up Sword Fleet like mad.  They have cut off the Geth and are systematically exterminating them at an accelerated rate.  You get to a control panel and start hitting a sequence of control panels powering conduits that begin charging up the Crucible.  The more power conduits you get going, the faster the Crucible will fire, which will spare the Geth from total destruction.  During this your LI is wounded and pulled up lame.  The Crucible is powering up, but there's still another power conduit that needs charging.  The situation is unstable and the only way to save yourself and the LI is to go now.  So the player needs to decide whether their fate, and the possible future they may have with their friends is worth sacrificing in order to ensure the survival of the Geth.  Throw in a third choice, in that Shepard can still charge up the final conduit and save himself, abandoning his LI.

It even fits in with the Paragon/Renegade split, with Paragon being saving the Geth, with Renegade being the more selfish choice.

Now I'm not a writer by any means so I don't think this is written all that well, but I would leave it to someone more skilled to set up the situation for the counterpoint to sacrificing the Geth.  It doesn't need to be SHepard and LI together.  Maybe LI is cutoff and Shepard can choose to go to LI instead to save the LI from being collected or some other horrible fate, or maybe it's some faction of others unwilling to die.

Funny you should mention that, but in the game Alpha Protocol, there's a situation very much like this.  A young woman and possible LI is kidnapped by a terrorist group as you are attempting to stop them from blowing up a museum.  At one point you must choose whether to go after her or the bomb.  Saving her means hundreds of innocent people die.  Defusing the bomb saves the tourists but means watching her get gunned down before your eyes in retaliation for your actions.

the situation you described might work.  It's a volatile situation, You are actively trying to save as many people as you can, and it's up to the player to decide when the situation becomes untenable.  Heck with a high EMS maybe you can still save some of the geth if you left early...

That's what I find so interesting though.  By making that choice, Shepard ensures self-determination for every other species in the galaxy.  For a game that is all about self determination, I think it fits quite well... how much are you willing to pay to guarantee the destruction of the Reapers and achieve the specific goal you've set out for.  If the Geth signoff on it saying "Yo dude, we're totally cool with this" then the choice becomes easier.  There's no real cost and hence nothing to make you evaluate whether the cost is worth it.

There is still a real cost.  The geth still die.  Would the price any different for Mordin if he went up the elevator, started dispersing the cure, went "What the...?" as the tower exploded?  No, but because he went up to the Shroud knowing he was going to die made his sacrifice all the greater.  He knew the consequences, and he let it happen anyway.  It was a price he was willing to shoulder himself.

In the Red ending, Shepard is forcing the geth to pay the price for the rest of the galaxy.  Shepard determines their fate for them.   Not for one geth, or two geth, or for red geth or for blue geth.  But for an entire race.

[CerealWar]

Cazychel wrote...

*sigh*

Every one is aware of the situation the Reapers already created. It is not good, catastrophic in some instances. BUT what most of those, who want a "happy ending", state is, that there should be, if everything went as good as it can get, a happy end for Shepard him/herself.

And the current state of the galaxy can be vastly different (perhaps it should be able to be more different, but I digress), but yes, even a happy ending would have massive destruction, have a bittersweet tone and so forth.

I think the OP is actually siding with the "happy ending" crowd. The people he's calling out are the folks that think it's silly for Shepard to survive the final mission. We don't want rainbows, unicorns, and ewoks. We're just portrayed as wanting that.

With the current ending, Shep puts a stop to a cycle that has been going on since the beginning of civilization. It's an unprecedented event. It should make every sacrifice feel worthwhile since we no longer have a set expiration date. If we had lost 1,000,000 people charging that beam, it should have still felt like a total victory. We were playing for all the marbles. But, due to poor story telling, sloppiness, what ever, we have a meaningless ending. We should have FELT that ending. We didn't.

[Allan Schumacher]

It could still end in Shepards death for all i care.. i was prepared for it and i want Shepards story to be ended, one way or the other.. but what you wrote is basically what we got in ME2 and its basically what i thought we'd get for ME3 but on a much larger scale with every major decision playing a part deciding between peoples lives and deaths.

I disagree, because the ME2 ending is more of a "how well did you play the game" since everyone can survive at the end. I think my example is more along the lines of Shepard having to make a choice on who lives and who dies. Shepard never needs to make this choice in ME2.

Funny you should mention that, but in the game Alpha Protocol, there's a situation very much like this.  A young woman and possible LI is kidnapped by a terrorist group as you are attempting to stop them from blowing up a museum.  At one point you must choose whether to go after her or the bomb.  Saving her means hundreds of innocent people die.  Defusing the bomb saves the tourists but means watching her get gunned down before your eyes in retaliation for your actions.

Alpha Protocol is one of the most well written and reactive storylines I have played in years.  I was very disappointed that many didn't seem to like the combat mechanics (especially since I felt that how the skills progressed was very similar to the original ME) because I would have liked to see Obsidian rewarded for that fantastic piece of writing.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 21 avril 2012 - 07:49 .

[Fnork]

streamlock wrote...

A common theme I see reoccuring is the what if "happy/unhappy/bitter" argument on ME3's ending.  

From an overarching standpoint, I don't see the rational on this argument.

Lets say, for the sake of argument that the crucible was non-funtional and the allied fleets/sheppard defeats the reapers, somehow, someway.

Earth is trashed.  Every major city and industrial center is wrecked.  God knows how much of the population is dead, dying, or being rendered into reaper mush.  Her colonies are trashed.  Her fleets are shadow of thier former glory.  The amount of eezo released in the final battle would afflict the children of the survivors with horrific birth defects (some minor fraction would be biotic)

Thesia is wrecked.
Palavian is wrecked
Who knows about the Selarian homeworld.
The entire galactic infrastructure crushed.

Just about the entire galaxy is a post apocolyptic wasteland.  Billions, maybe trillions dead.

No matter what happened at the end, this is an undeniable reprecussion of the reaper invasion.  It's a war story.  War sucks.  Even in the most rainbow and unicorn filled ending fans have come up with would not change this.

In short, lay off the happy ending BS.  Wanting a couragous, heroic closure for the protoganist and thier team/LI, (living or dead) over the pseudo imagary interpretationalist Greek tradegedy crap that was delivered is not asking for a 'happy' ending. 

The happy ending debate is a non-issue.  Unless war torn wastelands is your idea of happy times.  In which case, stay the hell away from politics, and us.

I went into ME3 knowing it was the end of Shepard's story. I didn't expect a happy ending. I did expect BW to set the stage for the next story though. Instead I got all of the above.  Talk about dissapointment, I was actually looking forward to what the future had in store for me when it comes to Mass Effect.

I think there was room for a glimmer of hope in the ending. I think there was room to show the galaxy rebuilding to be a better place than it was before. That kind of thing. If that's a happy ending then yes, I want it. After war you rebuild. You move on, there is always hope, there is always tomorrow. The worlds history is filled with wars and people have always rebuilt. The ending could have shown just that without diminishing the reaper threat or the scale of the conflict.

I guess my rationale for wanting a better ending is that without some kind of sweet in the bittersweet, a bit of hope or a ray of light I don't see the series moving forward. And that's when I really want it to move forward. Please note, it's just opinion. I don't mean to disguise opinion as fact. When I say "I don't see the series moving forward" I don't mean to say the series is finished. What I really mean is that I can't see myself invested in it any longer.

Modifié par Fnork, 21 avril 2012 - 08:18 .