90 réponses à ce sujet

[Atakuma]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Nah, that sword and stuff seems just right - it's somewhat magical and high-fantasy, and believable at that. I believe that's what Bioware is aiming for anyway. Not a medieval simulator, but rather a game with (dark) magic.

Having a sword that big is just wasteful. The Swords in Lord of the Rings look magical (look at Sting) but they don't have to be giant and stupid.

Wasteful of what? They clearly aren't interested in historically accurate depictions of arms and armor and there's nothing wrong with that.

[lyleoffmyspace]

Atakuma wrote...

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Nah, that sword and stuff seems just right - it's somewhat magical and high-fantasy, and believable at that. I believe that's what Bioware is aiming for anyway. Not a medieval simulator, but rather a game with (dark) magic.

Having a sword that big is just wasteful. The Swords in Lord of the Rings look magical (look at Sting) but they don't have to be giant and stupid.

Wasteful of what? They clearly aren't interested in historically accurate depictions of arms and armor and there's nothing wrong with that.

Wasteful of metal.

I mean, why used 30kg of metal to make some sword with a stupid flat bit near the hilt that serves no useful purpose when you could use 20kg of metal for the same result, less weight etc.

[bEVEsthda]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Nah, that sword and stuff seems just right - it's somewhat magical and high-fantasy, and believable at that. I believe that's what Bioware is aiming for anyway. Not a medieval simulator, but rather a game with (dark) magic.

Having a sword that big is just wasteful. The Swords in Lord of the Rings look magical (look at Sting) but they don't have to be giant and stupid.

Wasteful of what? They clearly aren't interested in historically accurate depictions of arms and armor and there's nothing wrong with that.

Wasteful of metal.

I mean, why used 30kg of metal to make some sword with a stupid flat bit near the hilt that serves no useful purpose when you could use 20kg of metal for the same result, less weight etc.

I think we'll have to assume less weight for that weapon. The hilt is probably not all solid metal, for instance.
Anyway, that doesn't look like a sword. It looks like a special weapon evolved by some smith as a way to find a use for old broken Claymores.
It's used by swinging only, slamming those spikes through armour (or a helmet) like a pick ax. A sort of can-opener. I can see it employed for dragging warriors off horses. That's where that enormous twohanded grip becomes useful. Then, as added versatility, it also retains the edged blade. This is used for slashing, against dogs, peasants and maybe horses' legs.
In short, It's no longer a sword, but I think it's functional enough for a Fantasy world. I've seen much worse.

Why would a warrior employ it? Because he's not a skilled swordsman, just a brawler, and also can't afford a sword.


EDIT: P.S.  But, ofc, if the game calls it and treats it as a "sword", then it's silly. Also about 'daggers', yes I was thinking exactly about some very elaborate such, when I said I've seen much worse.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

cJohnOne wrote...

Yeah the guys sword is too wide for my tastes. From my point of view using historical stuff would be great!

BONUS: HISTORICAL WEAPONS LOOK BETTER THAN MOST FANTASY WEAPONS.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A CONVENTION.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A SWORD FIGHT.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

One of the really sore spots for me on DA 2 was entirely aesthetic. For all the talk about how Origins was so bland and muddy, Kirkwall was equally so, if not moreso. I didn't think the color palette for Origins was bad, since most of it was in caves or the wilderness. The costumes, armors and weapons of DA 2 looked like crap to me. Fantasy is one thing, over embelishing size or flare of defensive or offensive weaponry/armor to the point of it looking cartoonish is another. I suppose it's different with people on how much is too much but DA 2 was way too much for me. When a sword is scrap metal from a junkyard with a handle, then the game is trying too hard to be "unique" to me. Hayder's Razor, I'm looking at you!

[Maria Caliban]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

BONUS: HISTORICAL WEAPONS LOOK BETTER THAN MOST FANTASY WEAPONS.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A CONVENTION.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A SWORD FIGHT.

The fantasy weapon looks better than the historical one.

AND THIS:


....IS WHAT I'D BRING TO A SWORD FIGHT.

[cJohnOne]

I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with one of those new fangled things.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

BONUS: HISTORICAL WEAPONS LOOK BETTER THAN MOST FANTASY WEAPONS.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A CONVENTION.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A SWORD FIGHT.

The fantasy weapon looks better than the historical one.

AND THIS:


....IS WHAT I'D BRING TO A SWORD FIGHT.

HMM... I WONDER WHAT THAT GUN WOULD LOOK LIKE IF IT WERE DESIGNED ALONG THE SAME PRINCIPLES AS THAT ONE QUNARI SWORD?



YEAH, GOTTA SAY THE REAL ONES LOOK DEADLIER AND CLEANER. THERE ARE SOME SETTINGS WHERE THE ABSURD UNWIELDY WEAPONS AND GIANT SHOULDER PADS WORK, BUT THOSE ARE GENERALLY NOT SETTINGS THAT ASK ME TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY AS "MATURE."

Modifié par MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES, 20 avril 2012 - 11:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

If I were a fantasy gunslinger, I'd go for the bladegun. It's a blade AND a gun AND had a cowboy aesthetic with the wood stock and polished brass. If I were in a science fiction setting, I'd go for this.

Do you consider Christopher Nolen's Batman trilogy more mature than Tim Burton's two Batman films?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 avril 2012 - 11:38 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If I were a fantasy gunslinger, I'd go for the bladegun. It's a blade AND a gun AND had a cowboy aesthetic with the wood stock and polished brass.

Do you consider Christopher Nolen's Batman trilogy more mature than Tim Burton's two Batman films?

I CONSIDER NONE OF THEM MATURE, BECAUSE THEY ALL TREAT CRIME AND MENTAL ILLNESS AS ISSUES THAT ARE SOLVED BY PUNCHES IN THE FACE BY A GUY DRESSED IN A LATEX BAT COSTUME.

Modifié par MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES, 20 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[Maria Caliban]

Does maturity demand truthfulness in your mind?

[addiction21]

What are "decent aesthetics"? Is there some unverisal set of rules for this? If so please pm me or show the link.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Does maturity demand truthfulness in your mind?

NO, BUT IF IT'S TRYING TO BE SERIOUS AND MATURE (NOT ALL MATURE WORKS ARE SERIOUS, OF COURSE), IT HELPS IF I'M NOT LAUGHING AT SOMETHING THE CREATORS WANT ME TO TAKE SERIOUSLY. 

[cindercatz]

The Grey Warden's swords a little unrealistically wide, but they still look great. They'd look even better a little thinner. The Seeker's swords are perfect, however.

The design aesthetic, overall, and the whole idea about armor and how it customizes, are perfect for DA3, imo. It's supposed to be more ornate now, with Orlais as a main setting, which is great.

[staindgrey]

In all honesty, I like most of DAII's design choices. It's nice to have a little more unique fantasy blended in. What I did not like were the weapon designs. Playing as a warrior was downright painful.

DA as a franchise shouldn't try too hard to mimic others. KoA:R and Fable are successful with their cartoonish designs, and games like Witcher and Skyrim are successful with the opposite. DA doesn't have to be either one of those-- it just has to decide what the hell it is.

[Xerxes52]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

Yeah the guys sword is too wide for my tastes. From my point of view using historical stuff would be great!

BONUS: HISTORICAL WEAPONS LOOK BETTER THAN MOST FANTASY WEAPONS.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A CONVENTION.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A SWORD FIGHT.

I have to agree. In game weapons can look stylish (gold filigree hilt, ray or shark skin handle, shamshir style blade, etc), but I would avoid the over the top shapes (a tuning fork?) and make them about the same size as their RL counterparts.

[Ponendus]

Too much realism in the art style makes me feel like I'm not in a fantasy world. I don't want to be in the real world, I have enough of that.

I don't mind realism as long as there is an element of the fantastic. For example Skyrim was too real for me in art style. Whereas Kingdoms of Amalur is just slightly too fantastic. Somewhere inbetween would be ideal for me.

And please, just a little color this time. DA2 had every shade of brown imaginable. It gets quite dreary after a while.

[Das Tentakel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

BONUS: HISTORICAL WEAPONS LOOK BETTER THAN MOST FANTASY WEAPONS.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A CONVENTION.

THIS:



...LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING YOU'D TAKE TO A SWORD FIGHT.

The fantasy weapon looks better than the historical one.

The Grey Warden sword looks like a toy. It's the kind of weapon you would encounter in latex form at a LARP event. It would be perfect for WoW, or Amalur. I can not look at it and not smell latex.

That's fine for those games. Not fine for DA, at least not the kind of DA I would prefer. The second sword, while not a particularly beautiful piece, has different associations for me. As somebody who has had both latex and real swords in his hand, these associations are inevitable, unavoidable.
The Grey Warden Sword means  'cartoony and comic light fun' to me, the second means 'murder and the cleaving of limbs and breaking of bones'.

You can still have a 'serious' tone in a DA game with the Grey Warden sword, but that would be in spite of its visual design, not because of it.

Personally I much prefer attractively detailed, but more realistic weapons. Or unusual but serviceable weapons, like a goedendag, a kopesh, or armour items like beautifully painted shields and so on.
Of course, it could be the DA engine is such that detail and subtlety are impossible or extremely resource-hungry, whatever.



Dueling shield



Bunch of pavises



Khopesh, replica by Neil Burridge

And a nice example of a practical standard weapon, but a nice version fit for a 'hero' (or champion, noble, officer whatever):



Detail:



(Replica of a 3rd century Roman sword found in Poland)

And finally something fit for an Anderfels krijger/krieger (warrior) bashing the skulls of Orlesian chevaliers: a 'goedendag':



It's as effective and unimaginative as it looks, but give it a nice lick o'paint and decorative woodcarving like some of those Iron Age Germanic spearshafts they found in the bogs, and it can actually look pretty

Point is: Design can look both pretty, functional and unusual without resorting to that uneasy middle ground between the latex generic fantasy of KoA and WoW on the one hand and the more 'grounded' look of The Witcher I and II.

One thing Bioware has to be careful about is how they mix and match, and that applies both to using historical examples and pure fantasy stuff.
Bioware's artists tried to mix up some things in MotA, but did it badly. In the case of the Duke's guards the artists combined things that didn't make sense as a whole: Armour for the ribcage but the belly fully exposed, cavalry gambesons that did not quite look right, quasi-Roman masked helmets that would have greatly impaired vision (okay for heavy cavalry on the battlefied fighting as a group charging the enemy, but terrible terrible for guards who have to, well, be alert and look around), pauldrons that just sort of sat there, etc.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 21 avril 2012 - 09:10 .

[Sharn01]

I am ok with people argueing aesthetics, what you would like to see in the game,  but leave realism out of it. No one that I know wants realistic looking armor, particularly realistic looking plate, people wearing actual plate armor look like metal clad court jesters, it was not a pretty sight.

Modifié par Sharn01, 21 avril 2012 - 09:16 .

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Sharn01 wrote...

I am ok with people argueing aesthetics, what you would like to see in the game,  but leave realism out of it. No one that I know wants realistic looking armor, particularly realistic looking plate, people wearing actual plate armor look like metal clad court jesters, it was not a pretty sight.

SORRY, I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SOUND OF THIS PLATE ARMOR BEING AWESOME.

ARMOR-WISE, THE REAL STUFF ALSO TENDS TO LOOK BETTER THAN THE FANTASY STUFF - IT GENERALLY FEATURES A MORE RESTRAINED DESIGN AND ACTUALLY LOOKS FUNCTIONAL EVEN WHEN IT WAS NEVER INTENDED FOR THE BATTLEFIELD. THE "PAULDRONS EVERYWHERE" LOOK WORKS IN THE RIGHT SORT OF TONGUE-IN-CHEEK FANTASY WORLD, BUT IF THE OBJECTIVE ISN'T COMEDY, THE CLEANER AND MORE ELEGANT DESIGN YOU SEE IN THE REAL STUFF IS GENERALLY THE WAY TO GO.

[Sejborg]

Elton John is dead wrote...

You mean like this?

  

 
The armor seems more realistic to me and yet retains a form of uniqueness to it. I hope Bioware use their own concept art as inspiration for armor in Dragon Age 3.

The grey wardens swords... :owhat is Bioware thinking. 

They should do something like this instead:
www.a2armory.com/bravsworando.html

They can still make them pretty, rough and whatever, without making it look like final fantasy or Kingdoms of Armalur. But please make them reasonable. Make them deadly and practical. 

Dragon Age used to be dark and gritty. Now it's all about flamboyance and tea at a french restaurant while killing cartoonish enemies. 

[TEWR]

The grey wardens swords... what is Bioware thinking.

To be fair, the first one is the Hawke's Key from Legacy I think. I wasn't a fan of anything that wasn't the Mage Staff version -- though I haven't seen the Bow version.

I like the second one though.

[Zkyire]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...



HMM... I WONDER WHAT THAT GUN WOULD LOOK LIKE IF IT WERE DESIGNED ALONG THE SAME PRINCIPLES AS THAT ONE QUNARI SWORD?



YEAH, GOTTA SAY THE REAL ONES LOOK DEADLIER AND CLEANER. THERE ARE SOME SETTINGS WHERE THE ABSURD UNWIELDY WEAPONS AND GIANT SHOULDER PADS WORK, BUT THOSE ARE GENERALLY NOT SETTINGS THAT ASK ME TO TAKE THEM SERIOUSLY AS "MATURE."

Put your hand under the blade to help you aim and dampen the recoil.

Cut hand in the process.

Squeeze the trigger.

Recoil of the shot cuts your hand off.

Gunblades never made sense to me, even in those scifi/fantasy games.

[Vovea]

lyleoffmyspace wrote...

The first is Game of Thrones - it perhaps might be a little dull but at least it's realistic.

Oh no he diiiidn't. GoT looks glorious.

I thought that while some DAII armors looked pretty awesome (Champion Mage armor was a nice change from robes), there weren't many unique designs to find. I brought the DLC armor packs just because I liked having variety.

I hope that in DAIII all the armor textures are atleast decent. The elven armor and Zevran's cameo duds were terrible.